The matter is confused: there were hints levelled by Lou Prosperi that Jenna may have been an Elven Queen...or Blood Queen. Alachia and Jenna look enough alike that they could probably pass for one another as necessary.
Alachia appears to be biding her power and ruling behind the scense at the moment, as a silent partner in both Tirs.
Full Version: Earthdawn To Shadowrun
Well Carolin Spector has a scene wherein Alachia and Jenna both appear.
As for why Sosan Nerain doesn't appear to have Alachias personality, thats problaly because she isn't described much in the way of personality, since she is an unknown factor publicly, and Jenna does not have the experience/power or guts to dress down Surehand in front of the others.
As for why Sosan Nerain doesn't appear to have Alachias personality, thats problaly because she isn't described much in the way of personality, since she is an unknown factor publicly, and Jenna does not have the experience/power or guts to dress down Surehand in front of the others.
I think you can explain the TT/Wyrm Wood connection by simply looking at the presence of Lofwyr as a Prince. If the elves of TT wanted to discourage Alamais's involvement in their affairs, who better to pick than Alamais's own brother? Ehran the Scribe is obliquely mentioned in the ED Blood Wood sourcebook (and pictured in the elven section of the Denizens of Earthdawn book), as are several of the other TT elves. As Ancient History says, we also have 2000 years of unrecorded history in between the times. Any connection between Alachia and TNN is attempt for Alachia is reestablish her power in another kingdom, although it sounds like there's a couple of novels which its sounds like I need to re-read or read for the first time. If you can provide specific novels or sourcebooks, I'm certainly open to changing my mind.
IMHO, I've always thought that the Atlantean Foundation's real goal had nothing to due with the reestablishment of Theran Empire...in fact it was the direct opposite. This would explain why persons like Dunkelzahn and TT, who were certainly no fans of There, would support the AF, even marginally. In fact, I believe the AF is specifically searching for one set of items, the pillars of orichalcum the Therans used to artificially manipulate the cycle of Magic, for their own purposes. (Its in the Theran sourcebook...and a super epic plot hook).
As to the transition from Europe to North America, I've had a theory (never borne out in a SR or ED book mind you) that there was an age of Magic between the two. Not necessarily a "full" age like ED, but a mini age about the time of King Arthur & the middle ages. Its possible, with the ebbs and flows of magic, that several of these "bubbles" could have existed long enough for the dragons to move to North America. Maybe Thera won the war in the end and the losers fled far away. One of the things the elves of Wyrm Wood and most of the great dragons had in common was their total hatred of Thera. It is curious that none of the SR great dragons reestablished themselves in what used to be Barsaive. Its always possible there's "no answer" to it all. It sure is fun to guess, though.
IMHO, I've always thought that the Atlantean Foundation's real goal had nothing to due with the reestablishment of Theran Empire...in fact it was the direct opposite. This would explain why persons like Dunkelzahn and TT, who were certainly no fans of There, would support the AF, even marginally. In fact, I believe the AF is specifically searching for one set of items, the pillars of orichalcum the Therans used to artificially manipulate the cycle of Magic, for their own purposes. (Its in the Theran sourcebook...and a super epic plot hook).
As to the transition from Europe to North America, I've had a theory (never borne out in a SR or ED book mind you) that there was an age of Magic between the two. Not necessarily a "full" age like ED, but a mini age about the time of King Arthur & the middle ages. Its possible, with the ebbs and flows of magic, that several of these "bubbles" could have existed long enough for the dragons to move to North America. Maybe Thera won the war in the end and the losers fled far away. One of the things the elves of Wyrm Wood and most of the great dragons had in common was their total hatred of Thera. It is curious that none of the SR great dragons reestablished themselves in what used to be Barsaive. Its always possible there's "no answer" to it all. It sure is fun to guess, though.
There's been hints of a mini-Awakening during the Dark AGes, but it would have been much more localized.
I figured the reason Dunkie and Lofwyr were looking in on the Council of Princes was:
a)Dunkie might ahve assumed his brother's role upon his "death"
b)I think most of the IE's in TT are actually Lofwyr's kids, or descendents.
Consider that Harlequin and Ehran come from Serethea, City of SPires, to the North and West of Blood Wood; and Shosara is to the North of Blood Wood, and Alachia and Aithne came from the "Western Kingdoms," and Lofwyr lived to the North and West of Barsaive, Alamaise fleeing him to what would be the Wyrm Wood.
'Course, I could be wrong. The Western Kingdoms could also be what becomes Tir na nOg. But I rather think that Tir na nOg was founded after the Northern Isles sank (vanished, what have you) and/or Blood Wood imploded.
I figured the reason Dunkie and Lofwyr were looking in on the Council of Princes was:
a)Dunkie might ahve assumed his brother's role upon his "death"
b)I think most of the IE's in TT are actually Lofwyr's kids, or descendents.
Consider that Harlequin and Ehran come from Serethea, City of SPires, to the North and West of Blood Wood; and Shosara is to the North of Blood Wood, and Alachia and Aithne came from the "Western Kingdoms," and Lofwyr lived to the North and West of Barsaive, Alamaise fleeing him to what would be the Wyrm Wood.
'Course, I could be wrong. The Western Kingdoms could also be what becomes Tir na nOg. But I rather think that Tir na nOg was founded after the Northern Isles sank (vanished, what have you) and/or Blood Wood imploded.
If you're right about the GD's having overseers so to speak on the council of princes Ancient, then i would say that it problaly doesn't have anything to do with the family relations between the GD's and IE's. Consider this, while Dunkie is the Loremaster, he clearly thinks of Lofwyr as his second in command so to speak, since Dunkie makes sure Lofwyr becomes Loremaster after his death, now that Lofwyr is loremaster, he leaves the council and the one who in Lofwyrs eyes must be considered second in command, given the results of SOThF must be Hestaby, as for the dust up with the Oakforests, well maybe Lofwyr decided to even a few scores before he left the council, also this is the only way Harleys comment about Hestaby drawing the short straw in this deal makes sense.
I think Harlequinn was merely commenting on how being a Tir prince is a job filled with so many annoyances, frustrations and colleagues with grating personalities that many people might balk at the prospect of being one. To top it off the other princes (lot of finger pointing at Surehand) have run the local economy into the ground and sparked a resistance movement that could topple the entire government.
Personally I think Lofwyr decided he'd rather sing a duet with Alamais on Wyrm Talk then remain a Tir prince any longer. So Lofwyr ate Glasigan ( a popular theory ) and left. Hestaby wanted the seat to protect her interests at Mount Shasta so she took it.
Lofwyr's not alone either.
Aithne Oakforest left suddenly probably over Hestaby getting a seat.
Ehran also decided he'd rather be a flunkie for the DIMR then be a Tir prince.
Personally I think Lofwyr decided he'd rather sing a duet with Alamais on Wyrm Talk then remain a Tir prince any longer. So Lofwyr ate Glasigan ( a popular theory ) and left. Hestaby wanted the seat to protect her interests at Mount Shasta so she took it.
Lofwyr's not alone either.
Aithne Oakforest left suddenly probably over Hestaby getting a seat.
Ehran also decided he'd rather be a flunkie for the DIMR then be a Tir prince.
As to why Ehran left, read the conversation between him and Lady of the Court in " Portfolio of a dragon "
Nobody just takes a seat on the council of princes, not even a GD.
I don't think Lofwyr ate Glasgian, that would be a serious breach of etiquette on his part, i rather think he left the arm on purpose to tell Aithne that he has his son as a hostage, so he better stop fragging with L's interest in collusion with the Nachtmeister-Graff Beloit cabal.
And personally i think the description of TT in SoNA is kind of moronic, appears like the elves doesn't have one brain between them, i mean RUN a country, no no thats too difficult for elves, and these are not even regular elves we are talking about here these are immortals, who apparently hasn't learned how to run a country during the millenia, again i say moronic. But the dragons, they can run countries, cities and corporations with NO difficulty, why??? Because they are so old and wise!!!! Oh wait isn't that also what the immortal elves are??? NOOOOO THEY ARE ELVES.
Again SR has a serious: NOT so SUBTLE BIAS against ELVES ( inferiority complex or political agenda??? Take your pick )
Fortunately every "place" book is smart enough to state that the texts in it represents POW's of their authors.
It is not that TT doesn't have problems in my book, but i rather tend to think that one of the Princes is purposely destabilizing the country as part of their own plans, i find it amazing that noone mentioned Alachia as a suspect in the " Harlequins revolution" thread.
Btw the economy is on the upswing according to SSG, so now the Rinelle has taken to blowing up tourist busses and so on, Yeah we really want to root for these people.
Hmm i think i'll go hug a tree now
Nobody just takes a seat on the council of princes, not even a GD.
I don't think Lofwyr ate Glasgian, that would be a serious breach of etiquette on his part, i rather think he left the arm on purpose to tell Aithne that he has his son as a hostage, so he better stop fragging with L's interest in collusion with the Nachtmeister-Graff Beloit cabal.
And personally i think the description of TT in SoNA is kind of moronic, appears like the elves doesn't have one brain between them, i mean RUN a country, no no thats too difficult for elves, and these are not even regular elves we are talking about here these are immortals, who apparently hasn't learned how to run a country during the millenia, again i say moronic. But the dragons, they can run countries, cities and corporations with NO difficulty, why??? Because they are so old and wise!!!! Oh wait isn't that also what the immortal elves are??? NOOOOO THEY ARE ELVES.
Again SR has a serious: NOT so SUBTLE BIAS against ELVES ( inferiority complex or political agenda??? Take your pick )
Fortunately every "place" book is smart enough to state that the texts in it represents POW's of their authors.
It is not that TT doesn't have problems in my book, but i rather tend to think that one of the Princes is purposely destabilizing the country as part of their own plans, i find it amazing that noone mentioned Alachia as a suspect in the " Harlequins revolution" thread.
Btw the economy is on the upswing according to SSG, so now the Rinelle has taken to blowing up tourist busses and so on, Yeah we really want to root for these people.
Hmm i think i'll go hug a tree now
My guess is that Ehran left for one of two reasons:
1-because he just realized that the plans he had for Tir Tairngire would be impeded by his fellow princes, and decided that he was going "solo"
2-like the ancients did, he wanted to create an impression of distance between himself and the tir, to better, in this case, manipulate it and pull strings discreetly.
1-because he just realized that the plans he had for Tir Tairngire would be impeded by his fellow princes, and decided that he was going "solo"
2-like the ancients did, he wanted to create an impression of distance between himself and the tir, to better, in this case, manipulate it and pull strings discreetly.
Or 3-he was offered a position (via Dunkelzahn's will) which enabled him to have continuous public contact with an admiring public. He likes the attention and continues to cultivate it, but this means he has rather less attention to give to Tir politics. Others take advantage of this, and use the Council weighted-vote set-up to oust him.
Running a country isn't nearly the same thing as having personal mastery of one's own ability and powers. Admining a board like this one is like herding cats. Running a country with a disproportionate percentage of manipulative elves can't be easier. There are times (I am certain) when those involved wonder whether it would be easier just to bluntly mind-control every person involved: at least then other people would act the way they are supposed to. Darned free will thingie
"She isn't described much in the way of personality"? Wouldn't that be much the same as saying that you can't pick up personality off printed posts?
Running a country isn't nearly the same thing as having personal mastery of one's own ability and powers. Admining a board like this one is like herding cats. Running a country with a disproportionate percentage of manipulative elves can't be easier. There are times (I am certain) when those involved wonder whether it would be easier just to bluntly mind-control every person involved: at least then other people would act the way they are supposed to. Darned free will thingie
"She isn't described much in the way of personality"? Wouldn't that be much the same as saying that you can't pick up personality off printed posts?
Or maybe he actually leaves for the reasons, he states to Lady of the Court in Portfolio of a Dragon.
An IE being straightforward and honest?!!!
| QUOTE |
| And personally i think the description of TT in SoNA is kind of moronic, appears like the elves doesn't have one brain between them, i mean RUN a country, no no thats too difficult for elves, and these are not even regular elves we are talking about here these are immortals, who apparently hasn't learned how to run a country during the millenia, again i say moronic. But the dragons, they can run countries, cities and corporations with NO difficulty, why??? Because they are so old and wise!!!! Oh wait isn't that also what the immortal elves are??? NOOOOO THEY ARE ELVES. |
Tir Tairngire suffers from the following problems......
1) S-K seems intent on bullying its way into the country.
2) Hestaby's appointment to the a Tir prince pissed off a large segment of the population. ( Ironic since she seems inclined to covertly support those who would undermine the Tir government )
3) Ehran, one of the few popular princes, left further upsetting the population. He may also be covertly supporting the resistance.
4) Most of Tir's population probably doesn't know Lugh Surehand is an IE. They don't realize the power on the throne so they're more likely to rebel against it.
5) Despite the advertising, Tir Tairngire is obviously pro-elf. All other metahumans are probably chafing at this one.
6) The council is filled with a bunch of Surehand's yes-men and an odd selection of IEs and a dragon. Personal agendas and paranoia have crippled the country's economy. ( which is only now starting to come back)
7) Finally Tir Tairngire is based on a lie. They set it up as the "land of freedom for metahumans". Then they turned around and formed a monarchy.
In contrast Hlaupa runs his country with an iron claw. The population knows its place, and that resistance is useless. They've done the math, and if the entire metahuman population of Amazonia rose up, all you'd end up with is a lot of well-fed shapeshifters. And if they really tick him off he'll call up his buddy Sirrurg.
If it helps even things out, the feeling I'm getting from the Dragons of the Sixth World book and the rumors about the new Shockwaves ( german sourcebook ) is that Lofwyr's personal little kingdom is about to hit some rough times. Perhaps killing Natchmeister wasn't a good idea.
I'm still trying to figure out who the third Great Dragon is that founded Amazonia.
Also, everyone of us needs to utilize the spellcheck button a wee bit more.
'Tis possible that Lofwyr's duties as Loremaster may require him to forego some of his other interests...or it could be a rat leaving a sinking ship or a deal with Hestaby.
Oh, just a note: there are indications that there is more than one Loremaster, but given the Council in Wake of the Comet, I think the GD's have globalized...
Also, everyone of us needs to utilize the spellcheck button a wee bit more.
'Tis possible that Lofwyr's duties as Loremaster may require him to forego some of his other interests...or it could be a rat leaving a sinking ship or a deal with Hestaby.
Oh, just a note: there are indications that there is more than one Loremaster, but given the Council in Wake of the Comet, I think the GD's have globalized...
Then again, spellcheck would have helped not at all, either with Nachtmeister or with every one. It's the Internet, and (although it did take me years) I've learned to read what's being said and pay rather less attention to details of grammar and spelling and when to use two words and when the conjoined one. Learning that I discovered to be a very good thing for my nerves. (And how many of us are ESLers, after all?)
I'd say the "odd selection of IEs and a dragon" more than balance out a group of "yes-men". Nor do I particularly see differences over personal agenda as being in itself a problem. (What is it that is currently popularly advocated, after all, but "enlightened self interest"?) Find a council that agrees on everything, and I'll show you a dictatorship in disguise. Disagreement at the high levels, covert or otherwise, I see as a necessary part of a government capable of evolution. Full agreement calcifies.
I'd say the "odd selection of IEs and a dragon" more than balance out a group of "yes-men". Nor do I particularly see differences over personal agenda as being in itself a problem. (What is it that is currently popularly advocated, after all, but "enlightened self interest"?) Find a council that agrees on everything, and I'll show you a dictatorship in disguise. Disagreement at the high levels, covert or otherwise, I see as a necessary part of a government capable of evolution. Full agreement calcifies.
If I'm not mistaken Lugh Surehand rules Tir Tairngire and the council of princes can if they vote in a majority veto his decisions. The thing is most of the princes who is not an IE or dragon seems to be a yes-man for Lugh. It's so bad that if I remember correctly a dwarf prince that was coerced into opposing Surehand was confined for medical "treatment". Those that remain so run the gauntlet in terms of personality and agendas that I doubt they'd agree on anything. Result? Even the council of princes is nearly impotent when it comes to opposing Surehand.
This has become worse with Surehand's extreme bouts of paranoia. Isolating a country that is not self-sufficient is incredibly stupid. (I suspect the other princes forced him to open up the ports)
This has become worse with Surehand's extreme bouts of paranoia. Isolating a country that is not self-sufficient is incredibly stupid. (I suspect the other princes forced him to open up the ports)
| QUOTE (booklord) |
| 4) Most of Tir's population probably doesn't know Lugh Surehand is an IE. They don't realize the power on the throne so they're more likely to rebel against it. |
Really? The impression I got from Worlds Without End was that Surehand wasn't an IE. Aina certainly seemed unfamiliar with him.
Just because you weren't around in the Fourth Age, doesn't mean you're powerless in the Sixth!
And just because Aina didn't know him personally it doesn't mean he isn't an immortal elf. The world is a big place after all.
True, but the impression I got was that all the IEs at least knew who each other were, even if they hadn't actually met face-to-face. Sure, the world is a big place, but immortality is a long time. 
I'm by no means overwhelmingly confident, but it did seem to me quite a strong implication that Lugh Surehand was born in this age.
Does anyone have any actual evidence to the contrary?
I'm by no means overwhelmingly confident, but it did seem to me quite a strong implication that Lugh Surehand was born in this age.
Does anyone have any actual evidence to the contrary?
Evidence no!! But the man deals with IE's and GD's on an equal level. Also i seem to recall some comment from Harley about the Lofwyr situation, y'know why Lugh supported Lofwyrs placement on the council, where Harley alludes to ancient rivalries and unfullfilled oaths or something in that regard. I think maybe it is in Coporate Download, though i'm not sure.
The only proof we have that Lugh is an IE is that:
1) He seems down with all this next-level shit
2) He knew anchoring afore the theorums were published
3) None of the known IEs have yet killed him, and that's saying something when he forced Lofwyr onto the board against their protests.
1) He seems down with all this next-level shit
2) He knew anchoring afore the theorums were published
3) None of the known IEs have yet killed him, and that's saying something when he forced Lofwyr onto the board against their protests.
Also in " Worlds without end " he participates in the meeting where Aina pitches the idea, that some of the horrors are lose in the world, only the IE princes, Lofwyr and Harley are present at that meeting besides Aina and Lugh.
Does anyone remember the Denairastas, rulers of Iopos?
Well, a few good sources have informed me that they are part dragon, almost precursors to drakes in a sense. Are they mentioned in Shadowrun? Has their tainted blood dwindled following the fourth world or are there literally thousands of magically potent metahumans out there with a genetically enhanced grudge(unknowingly) against their former masters?
Are these the drakes now rising in the Sixth World? Is that why the dragons are falling over each other to sweep them up before they become the menace they once were?
My group has a theory (we've been playing earthdawn & shadowrun 9+ years) that TT is actually Thera, just with a lighter coat of paint...
[Edit] Or was that Aztlan...
Well, a few good sources have informed me that they are part dragon, almost precursors to drakes in a sense. Are they mentioned in Shadowrun? Has their tainted blood dwindled following the fourth world or are there literally thousands of magically potent metahumans out there with a genetically enhanced grudge(unknowingly) against their former masters?
Are these the drakes now rising in the Sixth World? Is that why the dragons are falling over each other to sweep them up before they become the menace they once were?
My group has a theory (we've been playing earthdawn & shadowrun 9+ years) that TT is actually Thera, just with a lighter coat of paint...
[Edit] Or was that Aztlan...
The "Aztlan is Thera" idea has been around for a long time, but aside from a complete desire to dominate, knowledge of certain ancient practices and a propensity for blood magic more powerful than anyone else has yet seen; there's no proof. That and the Heavenherds are in Azania and there was already a struggle in that area between feathered serpents over blood magic.
No one has yet seen the Denairastas, who were not drakes or even pre-drakes, but rather a line of vaugely interbred dragonkin humans. Long-lived, magically potent, but not immortal. They could still be around, but they've been very very quiet if so. WIth good reason.
No one has yet seen the Denairastas, who were not drakes or even pre-drakes, but rather a line of vaugely interbred dragonkin humans. Long-lived, magically potent, but not immortal. They could still be around, but they've been very very quiet if so. WIth good reason.
AH>>>It's funny 'cause I read your Alamais thread straight after I posted this, realising my mistake. You're just too quick on those keys pilgrim
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