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How to kill a doberman, drone that is

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Tarantula

Jan 28 2005, 04:13 PM

Post #201

Dragon

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QUOTE (Shadowrunrpg.com FAQ)

How does an improved invisibility spell function against a drone's sensors? Is it resisted by the drone or can the drone just not see the character? What if the drone's sensors include thermographic imaging?
Technically, Improved Invisibility requires a Resistance Test, and non-living things don't get to make Spell Resistance Tests. So the simple answer is that the spell automatically fools drones.
If you want to be picky, however, then you can note that Improved Invisibility works against any tech sensors that involve sight: video cameras, laser proximity detectors, rangefinders, thermo. As described on p. 135, SR3, however, vehicle sensors include other components such as ultrasound, radar, listening devices, etc. Theoretically, these sensors could pick up an invisible character. (The same as you might give an NPC a listening Perception Test as an invisible character moved by.)
If you allow a Sensor Test based on those components, you should apply some hefty modifiers, or perhaps only roll half the Sensor dice. Keep in mind that even if the drone detects the invisible character, it still won't be able to "see" him, so it may get confused or otherwise not act the same as if it had actually detected something walking by.

So, theres both that either you can just blanket it out, or, you can add some modifiers.

BitBasher

Jan 28 2005, 04:23 PM

Post #202

Traumatizing players since 1992

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

QUOTE (Tarantula)

of course, you need imp invis at 6/7 force to affect said drone

You don't wanna go there. Seriously. You can play it however you like, but canon has left such things so wonderfully ambiguous that there'll never be much agreement over them. This I have learned the hard way.

I wanna go there, I hear it's a stop on a 5 day 6 night cruise, and it's very nice this time of year!

Gilthanis

Jan 28 2005, 06:57 PM

Post #203

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jan 28 2005, 10:13 AM)

QUOTE (Nikoli)

chem-delivery rounds with metal setting epoxy and called shots to the barrels

That's about as good a tactic as carrying an airsoft gun and shooting your opponents in the eyes. The muzzles of most guns are in fact much smaller targets than a human eye, and they're often moving more rapidly in relation to you.

You might be able to jam a revolver or a semi-automatic pistol with a glue/epoxy/whatever shot to the cylinder or the slide, but the barrel is a really difficult target to hit. You'd be facing +8 to the TN in any game of mine.

As for Levitate: The Doberman is a "Highly Processed Object", so based on the Object Resistance rules (sr3.182) you'll need a spell of Force 7, maybe higher depending on the GM's mood. The TN for the spell will be 6 or 7 (4, +1 per every full 100kg). A definite possibility for a powerful mage-type, though.

See..this is where common sense should outweigh some of the contextual readings. I know the erratta brought up object resistance and such...but it is really dumb to assume that levitating my electric toothbrush would be much more difficult then lifting my troll buddy. Again this is just my preference and not Canon, but if it isn't effecting the "mind/sensors", then it shouldn't be all that different to move.

Edit\ And on the note of the drone shooting the mage....No mage is dumb enough to stand in the line of fire. Not all circumstances allow for a preperation against a drone, but how does the drone know who the mage is? Dobermans IMHO can see Improved Invisibility characters because the sensor ratings are high enough to have ultrasound and sonar. So, just staying at a long distance with an optical imaging system would be a good safe harbor.

Tarantula View Member Profile	Jan 28 2005, 08:22 PM Post #204
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	First Gil... "Rating 0 sensors include rangfinders, as well as ultrasound and laser proximity detectors. Rating 1 sensors include proximity detectors, rangefinders, video (not trideo) cameras, basic radar, signature-recognition software, low-light & telecopic magnification." At level 5, you add flare comp. Otherwise, the only difference is between 0 and 1." Also: "All sensors include magnification power equal to 50 times the sensor rating." So, no, optical imaging won't save you. Also, don't forget, depending the sensor rating, it can go.... (for the dobermans starting 1 sensor you could upgrade it to 2, but I won't calc that out.) It can detect you up to, 2km away. (Ratingx1.5 round up). If you upgraded it, to level 2 sensors, it can spot you from 4km away. Lovely isn't it? Oh, Something I just noticed... sensor modifier...: "Concealed by spell: Certain physical illusion spells, such as Improved Invisibility or Trid Phantasm, require a Resistance Teset to pierce the illusion. Consult individual spell descriptions for details." I really wish I had MITS to consult so I can see exactly what it means. I read it as if MITS says you need half the OR to affect the object, there you go.

hahnsoo

Jan 29 2005, 02:15 AM

Post #205

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Tarantula)

Oh, Something I just noticed... sensor modifier...: "Concealed by spell: Certain physical illusion spells, such as Improved Invisibility or Trid Phantasm, require a Resistance Teset to pierce the illusion. Consult individual spell descriptions for details."

I really wish I had MITS to consult so I can see exactly what it means. I read it as if MITS says you need half the OR to affect the object, there you go.

I believe the half OR rule only really applies to combat spells or spells that require a direct resistance test (of which illusion spells CAN be if they are direct). This is due to the fact that common objects don't roll a resistance test versus spells and thus need a balancing factor in terms of spell force.

Indirect illusions require an intelligence test of the observer or sensor test of the drone against a target numer equal to the spells force. If the observer gets more successes than the caster, then the illusion is pierced.

Kanada Ten

Jan 29 2005, 02:18 AM

Post #206

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE

Indirect illusions require an intelligence test of the observer or sensor test of the drone against a target numer equal to the spells force. If the observer gets more successes than the caster, then the illusion is pierced.

Incorrect. Indirect Illusions are resisted using Intellgence. This is in the paragraph following the title "Indirect Illusions" in SR3. Further, MitS makes clear that those who observe an Indrect Illusion are the targets and make resistance test against the spell.

hahnsoo

Jan 29 2005, 02:45 AM

Post #207

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

QUOTE

Indirect illusions require an intelligence test of the observer or sensor test of the drone against a target numer equal to the spells force. If the observer gets more successes than the caster, then the illusion is pierced.

Incorrect. Indirect Illusions are resisted using Intellgence. This is in the paragraph following the title "Indirect Illusions" in SR3. Further, MitS makes clear that those who observe an Indrect Illusion are the targets and make resistance test against the spell.

*shrugs* Despite the semantics, the procedure is the same. You roll Intelligence against the force, and if you get equal or more successes, you break the illusion.

This is what the FAQ says about using Sensors to detect Invisible characters:

QUOTE

Technically, Improved Invisibility requires a Resistance Test, and non-living things don't get to make Spell Resistance Tests. So the simple answer is that the spell automatically fools drones.
If you want to be picky, however, then you can note that Improved Invisibility works against any tech sensors that involve sight: video cameras, laser proximity detectors, rangefinders, thermo. As described on p. 135, SR3, however, vehicle sensors include other components such as ultrasound, radar, listening devices, etc. Theoretically, these sensors could pick up an invisible character. (The same as you might give an NPC a listening Perception Test as an invisible character moved by.)
If you allow a Sensor Test based on those components, you should apply some hefty modifiers, or perhaps only roll half the Sensor dice. Keep in mind that even if the drone detects the invisible character, it still won't be able to "see" him, so it may get confused or otherwise not act the same as if it had actually detected something walking by.

Kanada Ten

Jan 29 2005, 02:46 AM

Post #208

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE

Despite the semantics, the procedure is the same. You roll Intelligence against the force, and if you get equal or more successes, you break the illusion.

Except one can use Spell Defense on Resistance tests.

hahnsoo

Jan 29 2005, 02:55 AM

Post #209

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

QUOTE

Despite the semantics, the procedure is the same. You roll Intelligence against the force, and if you get equal or more successes, you break the illusion.

Except one can use Spell Defense on Resistance tests.

Ah! (Zing!) Didn't think of it that way. We've never ever used Spell Defense dice for the purposes of illusion piercing. Which begs the question: Because Spell Defense is used when you are resisting a spell, wouldn't the mage doing the spell defense automatically know that there is an indirect illusion in place (otherwise, how can the mage allocate dice?)? Let's say Magician's Way adept without Astral Perception...

Kanada Ten View Member Profile	Jan 29 2005, 02:57 AM Post #210
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826	Well, as I understand Spell Defense, one doesn't know the nature of the magic being used. But, yes, the magician would know magic was a foot...

Tarantula

Jan 29 2005, 08:09 AM

Post #211

Dragon

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QUOTE (hahnsoo)

*shrugs* Despite the semantics, the procedure is the same. You roll Intelligence against the force, and if you get equal or more successes, you break the illusion.

Not quite. Because the observer (the drone) becomes the target, in order to affect it, the force has to be half the OR in order to have any effect.

Gilthanis

Jan 29 2005, 09:24 AM

Post #212

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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jan 28 2005, 03:22 PM)

First Gil... "Rating 0 sensors include rangfinders, as well as ultrasound and laser proximity detectors. Rating 1 sensors include proximity detectors, rangefinders, video (not trideo) cameras, basic radar, signature-recognition software, low-light & telecopic magnification." At level 5, you add flare comp. Otherwise, the only difference is between 0 and 1."

Also: "All sensors include magnification power equal to 50 times the sensor rating."

So, no, optical imaging won't save you. Also, don't forget, depending the sensor rating, it can go.... (for the dobermans starting 1 sensor you could upgrade it to 2, but I won't calc that out.) It can detect you up to, 2km away. (Ratingx1.5 round up). If you upgraded it, to level 2 sensors, it can spot you from 4km away. Lovely isn't it?

Oh, Something I just noticed... sensor modifier...: "Concealed by spell: Certain physical illusion spells, such as Improved Invisibility or Trid Phantasm, require a Resistance Teset to pierce the illusion. Consult individual spell descriptions for details."

I really wish I had MITS to consult so I can see exactly what it means. I read it as if MITS says you need half the OR to affect the object, there you go.

Yo Tarantula....did you not read my post or what? I mentioned that Dobermans had the sensor ratings necessary for seeing ultrasound....so, I don't get your misguided point there. As for the Optical scenario, I didn't say that was perfectly safe, but in most cases, a drone is going to have a pretty tough time figuring out that the guy several meters down the road using an optical vision mag from inside a car is the mage that is blasting away at it with a levitate spell. Especially when the drone doesn't necessarilly see the mage (with possibly an improved invisibility spell on) because that sound based sight is bouncing off a car, building, etc... I just pointed out the optical part to rationalize why it would be sound for a mage to bypass the previous comment on a drone shooting him/her all to hell.

Fortune

Jan 29 2005, 12:55 PM

Post #213

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QUOTE (Tarantula)

Because the observer (the drone) becomes the target, in order to affect it, the force has to be half the OR in order to have any effect.

Did you read the FAQ excerpt that hahnsoo posted?

Or the thread I started a while ago containing the latest ShadowFAQ response to this, and other questions?

This is the relevant quote from that thread:

QUOTE

Question: Does the Force of Improved Invisibility [or any other Indirect Illusion] have to equal or exceed the OR/2 of any technology such as cameras to be effective. This restriction is not listed in the spell description, but it is included in the Sorcery section. The official Shadowrun Missions Campaign [coordinated by Rich Osterhout] is ruling that the Force is unimportant in this regard, and only the number of successes comes into play [which is immaterial to non-living objects].

ShadowFAQ Response: The (Force >= OR/2) is only used when turning an Object invisible. For example, Improved Invisibility on a Computer would require Force 5 or higher, regardless of whether it will be viewed by cameras or people. Turning a Tree Limb (club) invisible only requires Force 2.

Foreigner View Member Profile	Jan 29 2005, 02:04 PM Post #214
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630	Just had an inspired thought, folks. :) How about having a Mage/Shaman *teleport* a large charge of C-12 (triggered by a remote detonator) directly onto the Doberman drone's turret/top armor? (That's the weakest spot in the armor of current Main Battle Tanks, so it stands to reason that a combat drone's weak spot would be in that vicinity as well.) Failing that, I suppose that an Ally Spirit could do the same thing. You could also try a mini-kamikaze attack with either a smaller drone loaded with explosives, or a remote-controlled toy airplane/car with a similar payload, a la the chase scene in THE DEAD POOL (1988), in which Inspector "Dirty" Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood) and his partner, Inspector Al Quan (Evan C. Kim), are chased through the streets of San Francisco by an explosives-laden remote-controlled model car (IIRC, it was about a 1:8 scale 1965 Corvette Stingray coupe, but I'm not quite certain of (1) the model's scale, or (2) the exact year of the Corvette that was being copied. :)) Just a couple of suggestions that might be worth considering. --Foreigner

Fortune View Member Profile	Jan 29 2005, 02:31 PM Post #215
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Teleport does not exist at all in Shadowrun canon. As for using a Spirit of any kind to do what you suggest, the material (explosives in this case) does not take on an Astral-only form when the Spirit does, but retains its physical form. This means that the Spirit could not place said material inside the drone.

Foreigner View Member Profile	Jan 29 2005, 02:54 PM Post #216
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630	Whoops. :) My bad, Fortune. :( I really need to go back over my rulebooks. As the saying goes, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." P.S. : Would my other idea (the remote-controlled toy/small drone packed with explosives) be feasible under the canon rules? --Foreigner

Lilt View Member Profile	Jan 29 2005, 04:27 PM Post #217
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032	The gangers aren't stupid! Well... OK, they are, but they're also clever enough to achieve positions of illegally-held power whilst sly enough to evade capture by Lone-Star. IE: They're stupid in the right way. Ever seen America's Dumbest Criminals? Would it surprise you if an ork or troll (or even a human, elf, or dwarf after having seen ADC) called the cops to the gang hideout? Average Orc/Troll intelligence? 2 and 1 respectively. Result: Gang in custody for BTL dealing. Doberman taken-out by police forces. It'd be an interesting turn of events and I'm sure it would make the players laugh. (and the rigger cry, as a bonus)

Foreigner View Member Profile	Jan 29 2005, 06:09 PM Post #218
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630	I can't *believe* that I forgot *this... From an ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS* game I read about on the 'net. Here's the link: Lach mal wieder!!! A party of mostly clerics and magic users, who noticed in the midse (sic) of an assassination attempt, that Silence, Darkness, and Fireball all have roughly equivalent radiuses. Cast them all simultaneously, and you get: "Dwarmigi's Inconspicuous Fireball--I don't know what it was, but it sure hurt like hell..." Would that spell combination be possible--and, more importantly, *legal under the rules*, in SR? If so, its usefulness against both living and non-living targets would make it pretty handy for eliminating sentries as well as drones. --Foreigner

Kanada Ten

Jan 29 2005, 08:00 PM

Post #219

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE

Ever seen America's Dumbest Criminals? Would it surprise you if an ork or troll (or even a human, elf, or dwarf after having seen ADC) called the cops to the gang hideout? Average Orc/Troll intelligence? 2 and 1 respectively.

I'd be more surpirsed if Lone Star showed up. Unless we're talking Nova Rich or something, but then those gangers are probablly Bod and Will 2 but Int and Cha 4.

mfb View Member Profile	Jan 29 2005, 09:15 PM Post #220
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	you'd have to cast multiple simultaneous spells, foreigner--the damaging spell, and one or two spells to cover the visual and audio. and the smell, come to think.

Foreigner View Member Profile	Jan 29 2005, 09:20 PM Post #221
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630	mfb: Thanks. Truth be told, I sort of expected an answer like that. I just thought that I'd mention it, because it sounded like it might be useful. --Foreigner

Kanada Ten

Jan 29 2005, 09:21 PM

Post #222

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE

you'd have to cast multiple simultaneous spells, foreigner--the damaging spell, and one or two spells to cover the visual and audio. and the smell, come to think.

By the books one can create a multi sense illusion (single subject) that would cover all senses at Serious drain instead of Moderate, though as a GM I would add a +1 TN for every sense beyond two. One could even make it resticted target (Sensors) and have Moderate drain.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Jan 29 2005, 11:36 PM Post #223
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	of one wants to destroy the drone useing magic, use a ram or powerblot. they are not elemental effects so therefor only have the effect that the drone crumbles.

Gilthanis

Jan 30 2005, 03:22 AM

Post #224

Moving Target

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QUOTE (hobgoblin)

of one wants to destroy the drone useing magic, use a ram or powerblot. they are not elemental effects so therefor only have the effect that the drone crumbles.

That is assuming you learned a high enough force version of those AFTER you have gamed at least once in order to do that. By the core rules, if the game in question was a first run, this scenario would flop on a domberman.

BitBasher View Member Profile	Jan 30 2005, 07:57 AM Post #225
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	...And the target number is really, really high.

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