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James McMurray
In the core rulebook, the doberman drone is almost indestructible, because it requires a force 7 spell (target number 12) or a weapon with a power of 13 or higher.

While heavier armed and defended places may have AV weaponry available, some other places won't.

What ways are there to hurt a vehicle with armor of 6 or higher using just the core rules?

What ways become available when MitS, CC, and M&M become available?

And as a side question: how do you determine the driving TN for driving something up stairs (such as a small wheeled drone)?
Sabosect
Killing dobermans is easy. All you need is C4, a remote detonator, and a way to get it to the drone. You'd be surprised how useful spirits are for this.
Nikoli
Also, elemental spells work just dandy as they don't contend with the tech level of the device.
ShortBusFury
I'm gonna' attempt to clarify his question and say that I think he's aiming at weaponry that the average joe has access too... gangers and whatnot. i.e. no spells, spirits, critters, A/V missiles, plastique, or military-grade explosives. And to give you an added challenge, only use items from the mainbook. cyber.gif
Kanada Ten
C4 is pretty average, but whatever.

Ram it with another vehicle or use a trap door to drop it a few meters down. Bury it under sand, concrete, or pick it up and hold it over your head.
Sabosect
I gave him a simple solution using items only from the main book. His question was how to hurt it using the main rules, and what ways become available with additional books added on.
waftalia
i think gangers would have acess to some pretty heavy stuff like that ecspecially the trolls that patrol i-5 and stuff as for shamans and spirits ,all good gangs have at least one shaman and if they plan on taking a doberman out i think theyll use his talents.

on another note remember this is shadowrun ...he who shoots first has already lost.try un undirect route of attack.a pit small but effective as long as ya got the time to gig..ie earth elemental.diversions,ect....

as of average joes taking out a doberman ...whats an average joe nudging his way into the work of shadowrunners thats our job.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Also, elemental spells work just dandy as they don't contend with the tech level of the device.

No, they don't. Elemental manipulations are neither AV nor armor piercing. The spell would need to be at least force 13 to get past tha armor.
ShortBusFury
QUOTE
I gave him a simple solution using items only from the main book. His question was how to hurt it using the main rules, and what ways become available with additional books added on.


Aye, and knowing the GM, I know it was not the sort of answer he was looking for. In our game I am the rigger and I am specifically NOT buying a Doberman because as soon as I do then everyone we encounter is going to have to have the means to defeat it... he has to. Otherwise he is giving a player (i.e. me) a limited put very powerful invulnerability on many, many runs. So, with that info on hand, maybe it'll help ya'll help him figure away around the problem.
Kanada Ten
You act like corps are not the ones making and using these things. Pretty much any corp worth hitting will have the means to stop a tracked drone (slip spray, freeze foam, blast doors, magicians, IR smoke grenades, [edit] electronic warfare).
Fix-it
You ever notice how easy it is to get ahold of minigrenade launchers, MAWs, and LAWs?
kevyn668
Doberman's are wheeled right? Can they traverse stairs? If not, you don't have to kill it. Just run the frag away and find the sec rigger running it. Kill him/her/it.

Alternately, get yourself a PC rigger. The Strato-9 has a MMG. That's enough, right?

Sencond alternate: 1)Shot the tires. 2)Have Troll sam pound it into a fine dust.

Sabosect
Another option: Siphon some gasoline from a car, stick it in a metal container with a very narrow opening, stick a gasoline-soaked rag in the opening, have a spirit set your home-made bomb on the doberman, and then light it from a distance using tracer rounds.
Modesitt
SBF: If your GM's going to be a prick about drones, go whole hog and take a Steel Lynx from Rigger 3. 9 armor base and you can mod it to 11 without impacting handling.

For the ultimate in low-tech solutions - Dig a hole in the ground and put some camo over it. Drone's do obey the laws of gravity. Have that hole be in front of the main entrance and back entrance to your hide out. Everyone who's anyone knows you're supposed to climb the ladder into the window, duh. The pit needs spikes or at least some broken glass. Not so much for the drone but for the other people.

Ladders in general mess with ground-based drones(Like the only way into the basement where the meth lab is is down the ladder)

Pits that you have to jump over("The floors old man, the troll busted through when it got drunk ages go") are ones I've seen before.

Fragile floors are useful - The drone is too heavy and will just fall through the floor if it tries to go over it.

Hit the drone over with your car(Armor doesn't count for crash tests).

The building is a ghetto faraday cage(I've a buddy who lives in one of these - The house is insane and eats electronics for breakfast because of the totally messed-up wiring and overall design) and has lead paint, so while the drone can get in fine the rigger either has +'s to his TNs from the jamming.

Shoot the tires.

Overload the drone by dropping something really big and heavy on it(Like a dead troll) so it can't move.

Turrets can't shoot straight up or at some angles. Have a particularily daring dude jump on top of the drone and begin ripping it apart. Maybe call for an Electronics B/R test or something to open it up and begin ripping apart the electronics, maybe a Gun B/R to break the gun, etc. If getting in close is an issue, the combo of something to jam ultrasound+thermal smoke grenades may be useful.

The job requires stealth(Such as "If they suspect a rescue, they'll shoot the hostage"). Drones are not that quiet.

Flip it onto its side or back.

Psycho man with a sword or club. Yes, with a high enough strength you can hack through a vehicles armor.

All sorts of chemicals from M&M - Slip spray, freeze foam, splat glue, and acid in particular.

If you're dedicated to screwing over your players for playing optimally, you have the tools to do so.
ShortBusFury
QUOTE
Doberman's are wheeled right? Can they traverse stairs? If not, you don't have to kill it. Just run the frag away and find the sec rigger running it. Kill him/her/it.


In SR3 stairs would be treated as rough terrain in tight quarters (offroad handling +3) so for a Doberman in combat that's TN# 8 (- Rigger's VCR rating) w/ a +2 while in combat sticking the average TN# with a VCR2 at 7 (i.e. =TN#6) which your average rigger will gain 1 success (if he has a 6 in Car) meaning it will be able to traverse the stairs or have to make a crash test with a failure causing 2L damage.
ShortBusFury
Ok, let's make this a little more specific. Say you're going to take out a hive of gangers in the projects (i.e. no Knight Errant or Lonestar). Neighborhood housing, no traps, just drugs, baseball bats, and automatic weapons. Now say these gangers don't know the assault is coming and they're caught completely by surprise. What kind of off-the-cuff situations would you use to keep the rigger from being an unstopabble force in this situation without using magic or straying too far into the realm of disbelief?

P.S. Good input from Modesitt on probable believable situations that could be implemented btw.
kevyn668
So run up the stairs and throw a bunch of grenades down behind you. At the very least the blast/fragments will trash the drone's tires. That'll slow it down--if not stop it--long enough for you to run the frag away.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
What kind of off-the-cuff situations would you use to keep the rigger from being an unstopabble force in this situation without using magic or straying too far into the realm of disbelief?

A rigger should be able to kill the entire area without resistance (what a waste of a rigger), but I'd have the gangers flee into tunnels and close doors as the drone navigates the disaster area of bodies and flipped tables.
kevyn668
QUOTE (ShortBusFury)
Ok, let's make this a little more specific. Say you're going to take out a hive of gangers in the projects (i.e. no Knight Errant or Lonestar). Neighborhood housing, no traps, just drugs, baseball bats, and automatic weapons. Now say these gangers don't know the assault is coming and they're caught completely by surprise. What kind of off-the-cuff situations would you use to keep the rigger from being an unstopabble force in this situation without using magic or straying too far into the realm of disbelief?

P.S. Good input from Modesitt on probable believable situations that could be implemented btw.

Other than whats been posted, nothing. Drones rule against those odds. Run away.
mfb
...

haha, okay, the gangers are dead. that's pretty much it. best they can hope for is running and hiding fast enough to escape the drone's sensors. situations like that are pretty much why drones were invented in the first place.
Sabosect
Unless they're racist gangers, they have trolls with immense strength. Those trolls are going to charge the drones they can get to and beat the living hell out of them.

Another option is to grab some ammo, set it up, pour some gasoline on it, and when the drone comes in light the gasoline. Ypu set up enough, that drone could be facing 200+ shots at once.

Finally, the car thing. Grab a car, run over some drones, and try to locate the rigger. The moment you find him, attack and kill him. The rigger's pretty vulnerable while parked, and it's easy to take down vehicles with even just automatic weapons.

To be honest, no gang worth the name would be without at least some form of magical firepower. If they are, then the rigger isn't your only problem, as the magician is going to be slaughtering the gang as well.
kevyn668
QUOTE
Unless they're racist gangers, they have trolls with immense strength. Those trolls are going to charge the drones they can get to and beat the living hell out of them.


That's metagaming at best. No (meta)human is going to "charge" a full auto firing drone. None of my characters would anyways.

QUOTE
Another option is to grab some ammo, set it up, pour some gasoline on it, and when the drone comes in light the gasoline. Ypu set up enough, that drone could be facing 200+ shots at once.


Or you could just set the drone on fire with the afore mentioned malotove cocktail. The ammo thing relies too much on GM fiat for my liking (they tend to ruin your "best laid plans..." and all that. vegm.gif) As usual YMMV.

<not-so-ninja edit>
Kanada Ten
Kevyn, you read that wrong. It goes: "If they are [without as least some form of magic], then the rigger isn't your only problem..."
kevyn668
Stupid meat eyes...

Sorry's all around. embarrassed.gif

<goes to edit>
Modesitt
QUOTE
Ok, let's make this a little more specific. Say you're going to take out a hive of gangers in the projects (i.e. no Knight Errant or Lonestar). Neighborhood housing, no traps, just drugs, baseball bats, and automatic weapons. Now say these gangers don't know the assault is coming and they're caught completely by surprise. What kind of off-the-cuff situations would you use to keep the rigger from being an unstopabble force in this situation without using magic or straying too far into the realm of disbelief?


The gangers immediately shut and lock every door they can. They barricade them with tables or things lying around. Drones have no special power for unlocking doors other than shooting them down or trying to rush through them. This gives them time.

Remember The Transpoter? It's like that. One of the guys with an automatic weapon guns down the two biggest wusses(He needs a total of 103 kilos). When the drone comes in, they throw the dead bodys on top of the drone. A Doberman has a load rating of 51, it can carry up to twice that. Thus, 103 is too much and it's stopped cold. Deal with it at your leisure. Even if they can't find 103 kilos, a body on top of a turret is a definite problem for someone trying to make a drone's turret go.

Or, break off a big board or a metal pole(The bar that would hold up a shower curtain would probably work) and have the guys waiting with it. When the drone comes in, they shove it under the drone from the side and use the item as a lever to flip it. If you stole the bar from a shower curtain, having another guy throw the curtain over. Or two strong guys with baseball bats wait on either sides of a door way, then when the doberman comes in they both shove their bats under the drone and flip it upward. the drone is a good idea.

Remember Abu Gharib? Remember the picture of the guy standing on a box holding the electrical wires? Stand on top of furniture(tables, couches, etc). Flood the area with water, maybe from blowing a water pipe. Rip the electrical out of the wall and electrify the water, throwing some wiring around the door in particular so you can probably catch someone else coming through(Might have to do that step first).

Rip a window out of its frame and shatter it on the ground where you expect them to come through in order to cover the area with shards of glass. This may cause them some surprises(This is probably the only time a GM will ever ask "What kind of footwear are you wearing?") and possibly puncture the tires of the drone(Probably really unlikely).

With the exception of the water solution, your final action should be to light the building on fire and get out. Or light it on fire and get out could BE your solution.
mfb
light the building on fire even if you use the water thing. it'll burn down to the level of the water, at least. also, fire is cool.
Sabosect
QUOTE (kevyn668)
That's metagaming at best. No (meta)human is going to "charge" a full auto firing drone. None of my characters would anyways.

Actually, it's also metagaming to assume they won't. A ganger who believes himself badass hopped up on adrenaline is liable to do just about anything, including running straight through the jaws of Death to rip his heart out with their bare hands. Besides, once he gets up close he has an advantage: The drone suffers penalties for using a weapon in melee range. And if he's a troll worthy of the name, he's probably survived the approach (depends on stats, YMMV).

QUOTE
Or you could just set the drone on fire with the afore mentioned malotove cocktail. The ammo thing relies too much on GM fiat for my liking (they tend to ruin your "best laid plans..." and all that. vegm.gif) As usual YMMV.


With the time scale we're talking, you're going to want to be able to use your ammo effectively. I was thinking you can use the ammo part for any leftover gasoline. After all, you're wanting to take these things out fast and can't afford a shootout with them.
mfb
how hot does gasoline burn? i know my m16's chamber got pretty hot from firing, and i never had any rounds cook off (though it does happen). will a gas fire get the ammo hot enough to cook off? if so, how long will it take to do so?
Sabosect
I have no clue about the exact temperature, but I do know it's hot enough to melt plastic.
Sandoval Smith
It depends on where the drone is, really. If you're deep in a corporate facility, a locked security door completly defeats it. This won't work so well if it's cruising around a Z-zone, where it can just shoot through the walls.

It'd be very diffulcult to take something like that in a stand up fight, so the NPCs have to use tactics. Elevation, is good. The drone can't do much good if there's a four foot wall between it and any targets entrapment, or if they can somehow hem it in and go take the fight elsewhere. The problem with wheeled drones is that their mobility is limited, so unless you have team mates run out to carry your doberman over that brand new VW sized pothole in the road.

Also, given the expense invovled, it'd suck if your GM was out to destroy your drones at any cost. Neutralization is a much better strategy to pursue.

*edit*
I am completly mystified by the whole "setting fire to bullets to stop the drone." How exactly is that supposed to work? You're going to have bullets flying every which way, which will make things hard an everyone in the vicinity, and might not even bother the drone at all.
BitBasher
QUOTE
A ganger who believes himself badass hopped up on adrenaline is liable to do just about anything, including running straight through the jaws of Death to rip his heart out with their bare hands.
Actually NO gangers have a professional rating high enough to warrant that type of behavior. most gangers are of the cut and run variety.

QUOTE
Besides, once he gets up close he has an advantage: The drone suffers penalties for using a weapon in melee range. And if he's a troll worthy of the name, he's probably survived the approach (depends on stats, YMMV).
no, the drone doesn't. There's no penalty for firing at close range, and as the drone cannot physically fight back at all, it cannot be in melee, it just sits there and takes it, and shoots back at no penalty. Drones do not suffer any penalties to TN's from those charts, sensor enhanced gunnery which drones use has its own chart for penalties, and those aren't on it.
Sabosect
QUOTE
Actually NO gangers have a professional rating high enough to warrant that type of behavior. most gangers are of the cut and run variety.


That depends on the gangers. Considering how varied people are in real life, I would say it's safe to assume what you're saying isn't true of all gangs.

QUOTE
no, the drone doesn't. There's no penalty for firing at close range, and as the drone cannot physically fight back at all, it cannot be in melee, it just sits there and takes it, and shoots back at no penalty. Drones do not suffer any penalties to TN's from those charts, sensor enhanced gunnery which drones use has its own chart for penalties, and those aren't on it.


I didn't have the books at hand and should have. Sometimes, I'm wrong.
Kanada Ten
I'd definatly apply the +2 to modifier if the drone is being hit with a weapon or otherwise enganged in melee by a character, whether you want to consider it canon or not.
mfb
uh, what? so, if i slap a robot arm on my doberman, it all of the sudden takes the +2 penalty because it's gained the capacity for a counterattack? this makes no sense. also, there's nothing in the books that says you're not in melee just because you're not counterattacking. a person who is surprised by a melee opponent can't counterattack--does that mean he doesn't take the +2 penalty?
BitBasher
That has nothing to do with it. Drones and vehicles have a specific table with the penalties they gather from firing weapons. That isn't on their table. Neither are a number of other things.
DocMortand
This thread has given me a lot of ideas of how to deal with drones in my game - the new rigger just got TWO Steel Lynxs at chargen...and one SL basically walked through its first mission with ease. (See My Medusa vs. Steel Lynx thread)

I try to be fair and keep my NPCs realistic (gangers do not carry AV weapons, Corp guards the same...don't really use APDS against people, nor grenades unless they are proficient in small unit tactics, that sorta thing) so I really have to think about how I can deal with S-Ls without having all my NPCs suddenly sprout LAWs or AV ammo.

Thanks, and keep the debate going - the more help, the better.
Sabosect
They do, however, take penalties from taking damage, like anything else. Which is their main disadvantage up close.

Edit: What about electronic jamming devices? Why wouldn't they have those?
DocMortand
I've been keeping the SOTA level down since I'm playing in 2059, pre-shutdown. EW hasn't been refined to the level that is in R3R, and it's still mostly military that has the SOTA there - it's not out on the streets *yet*. It's about to explode onto the streets tho, partly due to the group - they've made some high-profile runs recently.
mfb
why wouldn't a gang have electronic jamming devices? well, probably because they wouldn't expect to ever need them.

bitbasher, modifiers from the ranged combat table on page 112 apply to drones and vehicles. the gunnery modifiers on page 153 are in addition to the base ranged combat mods, not a replacement for them. drones suffer penalties for being in melee combat just like anything else that can hold and fire a gun.
DocMortand
Yeah, but melee against a Steel Lynx is an exercise in futility - armor 9 means you would need a strength of 19 just to be able to damage it. All the modifiers in the world won't help you if you can't damage it.
mfb
yeah, but it'll give the drone an extra +2. and drones are, generally speaking, poor shots, so that +2 could be a lifesaver. it might not save your life, but it could save somebody's.
hahnsoo
A similar situation actually happened on a shadowrun I was GMing in the Barrens. What the troll character did was simply sneak up to it in an alley and overturn a dumpster on top of it. It took the Steel Lynx out of the situation, and although eventually backup would come and "rescue" the drone, that gave the runners an opportunity to escape.

The inspiration for this was a time when the Troll used a dumpster as cover while trying to get to a manhole cover on a previous run, a la Metal Gear Solid's cardboard box. When gunfire penetrated the barrier rating of the dumpster, the player said "Cool, eyeholes". *grin*
Clyde
Man and Machine has rules for using Acid, which works against barriers per the rules in the BBB using its rating. It also has a line that says acid reduces the rating of ballistic and impact armor by one each per exposure.

So let's go melt some drones. M&M also has the Eld-Ar assault rifle which might prove useful for getting acid onto the drone in question. Spray tanks and splash grenades are another option.

And shame on people for not mentioning grapple guns. Did we all just completely forget "The Empire Strikes Back"?? nyahnyah.gif
Sandoval Smith
That doesn't work quite so well on wheels.
hahnsoo
Although I think part of the "solution", from a low-tech standpoint, is simply immobilizing the drone. An immobile drone is taken out of the action... it isn't destroyed, but it can't do anything. That's why pit traps work, and partly why the grapple guns in "Empire Strikes Back" work. Conceivably, with enough grapple guns or rope or something similar, you can immobilize any land-moving drone, wheeled or otherwise. But all this probably cannot be done off the cuff, as the original poster has stated.
Dancer
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jan 25 2005, 03:18 AM)
In the core rulebook, the doberman drone is almost indestructible, because it requires a force 7 spell (target number 12) or a weapon with a power of 13 or higher.

Force 4. It has Object Resistance 8, just the target number to affect it is raised by (Body + Armour). Not that that helps much.

My best bet as a magician would be to summon an Air elemental or Sky Spirit and have it fly a big chunk of c4 or c6 over to the drone, which I then remotely detonate.

EDIT: Just had a thought. Large quantities of freeze-foam might be able to immobilise it. Fill splash grenades with it and chuck a few, it'll at the very least slow it down enough to get away. And they'll be plenty useful for other things if you have any grenades left over.

For the gun-bunnies, the Gyrojet Pistol has a power of 12, and AV rockets for it have an availability of only 14 (compared to 18 for AV bullets, and a lower base power). Not a ganger weapon though. They'll have to rely on traps laid with large quantities of explosives.
Nikoli
Also, won't tasers work on drones?

Also, if you get a ganger or three into melee range, you get "Friends in Melee" bonuses, start making called shots to the weapons.

(this also reminds me to get electroshock added to my drones)

::edit::

Also, while most drones can't engage in melee, they have the really nasty option of ramming you, and it sucks to be ont he receiving end of a ramming action as a meat body vs. a drone/vehicle
Demosthenes
Large quantities of freeze foam would also screw with visibility quite a lot...and sensor-enhanced gunnery is rather difficult in an urban environment, if I remember correctly...
Nikoli
Honestly, the gangers stand a better chance in a bum rush of the drone than any other way. If the drone is on self-guidance, it will get very few shots off, relatively speaking and miss most of those. If it's a rigger, they will likely hit more often, but they are still limited to the number of actions they can take. Four rush in, they stand a good chance of making it relatively unharmed (one might become a fine red mist), they can then make called shots to rip the gun out of the turret and then they are left with a really heavy RC car whacking into their shins (which is still not to be ignored)
James McMurray
Bitbasher: The gunnery section specifically states that you get all of the modifiers from the gunnery tables and all of hte modifiers from the ranged combat table.

Dancer: A spell's force has to be higher than the drone's armor rating to have any affect.

Thanks for the suggestions folks! smile.gif
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