Well, given the fact it was a brick veneers, I'd say single layer normal bricks

Dual charge double offensive grenade anyone? Huck one it, gangers are done, and either they liquify from chunky salsa effect, or eventually one of the walls gives up and the building lands on them. More practical than 7,000 rounds of ammo (but its not that hard to make a medium drone (size of a small car) hold that much).

I meant in shadowrun rules Austere, each time the blast from the nade hits a barrier, it bounced, but also damages the barrier. Chunky salsa on all the people, and depending on the size of the room, walls will be coming down as well.

For those that care, here is the answer from the FAQ guys about drones and stairs:

>Hi James,
>The books don't say, as far as I know, except for the drones that
>are described as having a stair-climbing mode.
>
>Since some drones are described that way, I figure that all the rest
>can't make it up stairs, regardless of piloting roll.
>
>That's just my impression -- as one Shadowrun GM to another -- since
>the books don't give a precise answer.
>
>Good luck!
>--ShadowFaq
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "James McMurray"
><jt_mcmurray at hotmail.com>
>To: info at shadowrunrpg.com
>Subject: Driving drones up stairs
>Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:35:33 -0600
>
>What would be the target number for driving a wheeled or tracked
>drone up
>stairs?

A dual charged IPE grenade would drop it in, well, the second wave to hit after the initial 2.

I thought that if the power exceeded by at least half the barrier rating, it reduced the rating. So as long as they had a power of 6 or higher, they would drop the barrier to 11, then again to 10, 5 or higher to drop to 9/8, and so on.

And in a small enough space, the chunky salsa effect might well damage the barrier causing the chunky salsa effect, if you see what I mean. Though that is a little silly.

I forgot about reducing the rating.

Speaking of reducing the rating, what do people think about using that rule for drones? Vehicle armor has almost the same rules as barriers, except that you can't reduce the rating. Making it so that several shots from an assault rifle can eventually penetrate armor might make things more balanced.

Perhaps give the +4 called shot modifier because you need to continually aim at the same general spot on the drone to have cumulative effects.

That's what happens when I reply without a book handy.

No worries, that's why there's guys like me with the books in a stack next to the keyboard always hanging around the forums.

Err, right, I forgot its doubled against just regular fire too. So you need power 13 on your gun to start breaking down the barrier, other than that, my post was fine.

So, how about an adept with Smashing Blow and Attribute Boost: Strength?

With a decent Wallhacker-build you don't need Smashing Blow until you get to BRs over 14. A specialist wallbasher-specialist build would be possible, a Ghouled Cyclops with no real skills apart from Unarmed Combat and max AttrBoost and ImpAttr, or whatever allows for the highest STR. This might allow you to smack down walls of BRs up to ~25-28 or so, but the character won't be very useful for anything else.

Dumpshock.Com is really acting up...

aaaaah, okay =)

I'm pretty sure that a dikoted melee weapon doesn't suffer from the double barrier rating.

He's not arguing with you, though I think it only applies to edged weapons.

So, go a "smashing" with that dikoted couger fineblade. Oh yeah, that makes SO much sense.

That's his point.

I know, but still... hrmm, with that kinda power, you might be able to carve your way into a ship... Hull + Armor * 8 for barrier rating. You could start carving through ship hulls with that, thats just wrong.

What's wrong with the low-tech solution?
The Doberman comes into your tenement....

Wait around a corner.
When it gets close enough, pick it up and dump it in a closet. Mind the turret, the barrel might be hot or shooting. Maybe you might want ot use a blanket to blind it's cameras and prevent wheelburn. Maybe a metalized emergency blanket to blind some other sensors.
Fill a bathtub.
Go get the Doberman. Mind the turret.
Dump doberman into tub. Don't put it rightside up.
Plug in toaster.
Toss toaster into tub.
It might not kill the drone, but it's fun!

Personally, I'd toss the blanket over the thing and run. Where there is one drone, more trouble is coming.

Since when are they immune to melee attacks? Besides, its not a melee attack, you're just underwater smashing a hole in it. That makes it start taking on water. Just keep smashing holes all over the place.

The problem with that Lantzer, is that a doberman is quite unlikely to get picked up by anything short of a troll metatype.

I thought I remembered this:

Fields of fire, the page that talks about the Great Dragon ATGM. Matador (RIP) comments that

I can't remember, if it has body 1, its the size of a dwarf, and body 2 it starts approaching motorcycle/compact car. I'd say any load reductions it took would add to its weight (like the armor and gun, and ammo) as well as having a nice hefty weight for being mostly an engine and metal frame around it.

Let's see: Lantzer's quick and not necessarily accurate ideas on how big things are.

Body 0 - small enough to be thrown for a short pass, light enough construction to smash easily. Postage for UPS delivery is reasonable. Ex: Bug drones, star wars toaster bots.

Body 1 - small enough to pick up and carry around, with effort. Tough enough that you have try to break it. UPS wants more money. Lift with the legs, not the back. Ex: Condor drones.

Body 2 - too big for normal folks to lift or carry around without a hernia or knee problems. Motorbikes or sofas for example. If you want to break it, get an axe. Get a palette jack or forklift to move it. You could tip it over if you wanted to. Ex: the Steel Lynx.

Body 3 - It's your friggin car, perhaps a big-arse bike. Get a forklift or a towtruck. Ex: Saab Dynamit. If you want to break it, blow it up or crash it.

Body 4 + these get a little fuzzy, sometimes they are bigger, sometimes they are just tougher.

If you are a troll, treat each category as one size smaller.
If you are a dwarf, no modifiers - dwarfs are strong little buggers.

Unfortunately, I can't remember whether a Doberman is body 1 or 2. I _think_ it's body 1. What makes drones tough is usually the fact they they are treated as vehicles, and carry vehicle armor. A Steel Lynx is definately body 2, if I'm not deluding myself.

Problem, is that there is different size descriptors for body given in R3R between wheeled drones and wheeled cars. Check the design process for chassis selection in R3R for sizes of things.

Heres the other problem with your thing Lantzer... Armor. Body 1, is listed as between the size of a toaster and a dwarf. I'm sorry, but a toaster isn't going to be able to have a rifle mounted on it, so the doberman is quite obviously about the size of a dwarf. It will also be considerably heavier than a dwarf, metal weighs more than meat (even dwarf meat). Lastly, added on top of the fact that its already heavier than a dwarf, it has armor. Armor is tremendously heavy, even for small bodied things.

No real argument. I use that rule of thumb for most everyday items. Combat drones tend to be on the heavy side for the reasons you mentioned.

Of course, I generally don't worry about it because the people who would be attempting these things generally have physiques ranging from excellent to unbelievable.

Hence, "lift with the legs, not the back". I'd have trouble hauling a Doberman around, because I'm a lazy, out-of-shape grad student. Mr. Buff street sam can tote the thing around, with effort.

I don't think we disagree in principle, just a bit in degree.

Back to the topic of the thread, I'd still usually toss a blanket or trash can on the thing and run like hell. When a drone is after you, it's not the drone that is the problem. It's the fact that you are likely to be having other hostile visitors soon that is the problem.

EDIT: I am going to take a look at my R3 when I get home. This has got me curious.

yeah, 6 points of armor on a body one drone weighs 30 kilos, or 66 pounds alone, not even counting the drone which is likely to weigh substantially more.

The doberman has a body of 2. I'm not sure where that puts it in the rigger 3 scale, but I'm guessing its about the size of a moped, with a little extra weight for armor. Say about 50 kilos.

If that's an accurate weight, a character with strength 2 can flip it over, but he'll be exhausted afteward. The higher the strength goes the lower the level of exhaustion, until at strength 10 you have no problem, and could flip dobermans over all day long.

Edit: comparing signatures and speed ratings on the doberman and bikes shows it to be just slightly faster than a Scoot, but with a lower signature. I'd say that means it weighs about the same. Ifso, 110kg may be a bit high.

Has a body of 2? On the R3R Chassis scale that puts it at small motorcycle to compact car size. I'd lean more toward probably the size of a motorcycle. Rather big thing now isn't it? Sure, trolls probably can flip it, orcs/dwarves might, humans/elves doubtful. 110kg would be high? Because it weighs the same as a scoot? No, it'd weight probably 125kg, plus the 60kg (did I do that right from memory?) of armor, putting it at close to 200kg, add in its gun and the weight of the ammo its carrying, and thats about right. Not so easy to just flip over now is it.

Also, its rare that it would ever completely stop moving, its a wheeled mini-tank, the rigger can quite easily putter about the room at 3-5m/turn without issue, while firing on people (in fact, it'd have to be moving to actually fire at people, as its turret is fixed, and thus it has to turn to aim). Considering most metas would have problems fliping a stationary non-active one, how about one thats driving away, while trying to shoot you dead? Even better (and smarter of the rigger) is throw a electro shock security system on it. Keep it activated at all times unless you need to tinker, then tell it remotely to turn it off, otherwise its on. You touched it to flip it? 10S Stun. It rammed you going 2m/turn? Moderate damage from that for you, and 10S stun. You filled up the room with water? *zappa zappa zappa* might fry the drone, but anyone in the water is toast too.

Drones are NASTY, especially dobermans/steel lynxes. Just sitting here, looking at my work desk, I'd say thats about right for a doberman. 3/4of a meter wide x 3/4 meter tall x 2 meters long. I'm a fairly strong in shape guy (9 years of karate + 3 kickboxxing does that) and I could tip the desk, if I get a good grip and go. I'd say my str hovers in the 4-5 area, depending. If this thing was moving, at all, my best bet would probably be to try to dropkick it. Something that doesn't involve getting a grip. Troll with a sledgehammer and knockback would work as well. Just picking one up and flipping it won't happen.

R3 has weights for Drones on page 62.

A Body two drone has a weight of between 75-300kgs, so picking it up isn't that easy, but you don't have to pick it up totally, just pick up one end and flip itg over.