 How to kill a doberman, drone that is |
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 Jan 25 2005, 04:21 PM
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#51
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686  |
To help bitbashers point: Yes, the drone will take a +2 modifier for shooting while in melee, however, I would argue that because its in melee, it quite obviously has direct line of sight to its target, and gets a -3 modifier from that. Totalling out to -1. so Nyah! :P
Also, unless the drone is moving extremely slowly, it wouldn't have much problem breaking through freezefoam. Thats another note, its rather quite hard to catch up to a rigger controlled drone playing hit and run on you. Riggers can rather easily shoot, then accellerate, and now its going at least its base acceleration, times however many successes the rigger got, which can be rather fast. Next rigger acctions, decellerate, shoot, accellerate again, and so on. |
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Jan 25 2005, 04:23 PM
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#52
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think that's going to work so well inside a house. walls, and stuff.
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Jan 25 2005, 04:26 PM
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#53
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Sure, it'll be a handling check to not crash, but if people can run around in a house, at quickness meters, why couldn't a drone go at least 1.5x that fast without issue?
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Jan 25 2005, 04:48 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
As I've said before, I'm a relative newcomer to SHADOWRUN, but I have a couple of ideas that might work--dependent, of course, upon whether or not the GM in your campaign allows it.
Nikoli: I don't recall where I saw it, but on one of the SR-related Websites that I used to frequent (I think that it has since shut down), I saw an EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) hand grenade listed. While it was originally intended to give non-cybered/non-magical PCs a means of defending themselves against heavily-cybered opponents, I suppose that a more powerful version would work as well against a drone--provided, of course, that said drone wasn't heavily shielded against EMP bursts. The same site also listed a Liquid Oxygen (LOX) grenade, which was intended to give mundanes or Street Sams a defense against Water Elementals--although I suppose that they would also be useful for breaking into facilities on a stealth mission. (Think about it for a moment: liquid oxygen has to be chilled to more than 400 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit) in order to stay a liquid; temperatures like that will SHATTER most metals, including high-tensile strength steel alloys, and would most likely be just as effective against reinforced concrete. Since that technique is probably just as effective as using C-4 or C-12, and nowhere near as noisy, it would DEFINITELY be worth checking out.) This isn't the same site, but it DOES have rules for converting Cyberpunk: 2020 weapons to SHADOWRUN. You'll find both an EMP rifle and an EMP grenade listed. BlackHammer CyberPunk Project --Foreigner |
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Jan 25 2005, 05:13 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 27-December 04 Member No.: 6,908 |
where does it say that? pg196 says that armor protects from damage at 1/2 its rating not full rating, also 2ndary efect is not damadge. Nothing says that the object must be damadge to be efectyed by the 2ndary efects. The closest thing to that would be the force being 1/2 the objects restence rating, and sence 2ndary efect are OR test armor has no efect. so a OR base 10(highly procesed object) +2 (for a serious damage spell) is a TN of 12 now I do have a question about the 2d6 that is roled for 2ndary efects. is that 2d6 and add the result? or 1d6(rule of 6) *2? |
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Jan 25 2005, 05:20 PM
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#56
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Vehicles add Body + Armor to their OR to determine minimum force (page 182).
But the freeze foam has a Barrier Rating of 12 and could seriously cramp a drone's style if splashed in the turret and body (covering sensors, weapons, exhust)... |
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Jan 25 2005, 05:29 PM
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#57
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
The turret the drone comes with is a fixed turret, which means splasing foam on it won't impede function very much, as the drone basically has it welding onto the front of it.
Sensors don't really care about some freeze foam, after all, it already can sense through all the armor it has anyway, all you're doing is adding a barrier that you have to shoot through before you can try to hit the drone. New idea, freeze foam coated drones before you go into combat! Instant armor. |
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Jan 25 2005, 06:10 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 27-December 04 Member No.: 6,908 |
ok so the modified OR for the drone would be (base OR+body+(1/2 armor) force requierd =1/2 OR so Doberman Hitech object OR 8+2body +3 /armor=13or+2 for Serious damage spell=15/2=force 7 now thats giving the binifit of a dout and the dobermen is just a hitech not highly proses object. yeap might not work. but a force 6 lightning would stil efect a dobermen becouse the lightning is not directly cast on the dobermen so..It has already manifest and is being treated as damage not magic. F 6M lightnig(fetished) Drain (3D eww) -3 for armor=TN3 for resisting damadge so even if you could not get a secondary efect on the doberman you would stil get a minumum Moderat wound on it becous it could only get 2 sucsese with its body. may not take the drone down but defently harm it. |
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Jan 25 2005, 06:36 PM
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#59
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
With the added bonus of possibly frying a jumped in Rigger's prom memmories out of existence.
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Jan 25 2005, 07:02 PM
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#60
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 13-January 05 Member No.: 6,974 |
If you're a GM, act like it. Don't find ways to have little people kill your drone! Find situations in which the little people can defeat a drone.
Perhaps a gang leader was meeting with a fixer who happens to deal in big boom weapons. Or, perhaps another team of shadowrunners had another mission in the area, saw the drone and freak out. Whats to stop your average joes from simply taking aimed shots at exposed areas like sensors or wheels? A blind drone can't shoot what it can't see. Unless your rigger has half a brain, in which case he'll probably have another aerial drone on overwatch. The trick is to think like an inside out cat with a dead box inside it. |
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Jan 25 2005, 07:10 PM
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#61
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
personaly i would go for sensor cover and get the hell out of dodge. smoke bombs, even more so termal smoke, metal strips hanging from a rotateing fan to mess up radar, some ultrasound emitters on random, maybe a flashpak or two to mess up visual and a getthoblaster on 11 and loaded with troll trash :rotfl:
if nothing else, we have one hell of a party :smokin: question is, why are they sending in a drone? is it to kill anyone inside? if so then why not just pop some cans of gas tru the windows or "nuke" the building? a drone on spray n pray is going to do hell with the structures stability anyways... i recall zaping by bbc news one day when they where following us troops in that operation in iraq. when a troop ran into a group of enemys held up in a ruined building and tossing grenades the called in a troop carrier and basicly showerd the building with .50... so why send in a drone when you can just bring down the building on top of them? |
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Jan 25 2005, 07:36 PM
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#62
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Not a new idea. And I don't agree that the sensors are located behind the armor, but whatever. Not only that, the drone still can't break out of a freeze foam coating, its wheels will be locked. |
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Jan 25 2005, 07:39 PM
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#63
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
even if the sensors are behind armor, there have to be ports for the cameras and so on, cover those and the beast is blind ;)
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Jan 25 2005, 08:30 PM
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#64
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm betting it was an M242 Bushmaster 25mm automatic cannon, not a .50 (HMG). You need to keep firing at a concrete, brick or stone structure for a really long time with an M2 to make it collapse. There's a world of difference between the terminal effect of the two... Plus TV networks have been showing a lot of videos of buildings in Falluja being fired with the autocannons because it's very flashy, quite unlike MG fire. Bringing in the Bradleys (or similar AFVs) isn't always a possibility. Vehicles of that class are extremely expensive pieces of equipment and difficult to get into several places. Using a small, relatively inexpensive drone to neutralize the enemy with accurate small arms fire is a much preferred option when possible. I think we'd see this development taken to an extreme with SR technology, especially against low-tech opponents (when there's little risk of MIJI, for example).
The Doberman has a microturret and a firmpoint. You ain't gonna be doing serious structural damage with any weaponry you can mount on those. |
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Jan 25 2005, 08:43 PM
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#65
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
It isn't blind, the rigger controlling it just has to rely on other sensor methods to fire with. I'd say +1 or 2 TN at worst, Simply because drones have 4-6 methods of detecting something with sensors, only one of which is sight.
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Jan 25 2005, 09:01 PM
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#66
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
The others being sound (which is dampened by freeze foam), radar (which is questionable but likely dampened), virbation (dampened), and that's about it. I'd treat it like giving everyone full cover. +8 all around.
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Jan 25 2005, 09:02 PM
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#67
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Unless they have spotter drones
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Jan 25 2005, 09:42 PM
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#68
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Aaah no. The spell is not antivehicular. If the spell was force 6 Serious and cast at a vehicle with 3 armor then the force is divided by two, and the power is reduced by one, just like *all* attacks against vehicles. This makes it a 3m before armor, and the armor reduces it to absolutely nothing. That's with only 3 points of armor.
I'd say the drone would lose the -3tn bonus it revieves from having direct LOS, but that's about it. Drones default target numbers already assume the drone cannot directly see the target, they get a bonus if it can. "blinding" it puts it back to default target numbers.
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Jan 25 2005, 09:44 PM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You ended up with the right number, but only by accident. Page 150: if the force of the spell does not exceed the armor rating, the spell has no effect. Thus if a vehicle has an armor rating of 6, the average mage's combat spells will bounce off.
Sorry, it won't hurt it at all. Page 150: Elemental manipulations are counted as weapons. Their damage level is reduced by one and their power is halved. If the modified power does not exceed the armor rating the spell bounces. A force 6 lightning bolt is a looong way away from being able to hurt a drone with 6 armor. |
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Jan 25 2005, 09:50 PM
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#70
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
This is why dealing with Armor 9 Steel Lynxes is problematic at best - Elemental Spells would need to be Force 19 (!) to be able to affect it, Physical Combat Spells have to be force 10 to affect it...and the only weapons that can touch it (besides AV ammo) are vehicle mounted, or launchers that are AV.
How prevalent are splat guns to the streets tho? Talk about immobilizing drones... |
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Jan 25 2005, 09:54 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 626 Joined: 1-March 04 Member No.: 6,112 |
Splat guns. Slip spray. Jammers. Acid. Trolls. Pit traps. Mobility problems. Finding the rigger. Crashing things into it. Plenty of ways to stop drones....
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Jan 25 2005, 09:55 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
Eh didn't read the whole thread to see if these are already in:
You could get a heavy drone with indirect application of spells like shape earth. Might also have the gangers call in a favor from a rigger of thier own. Have them run and hide for like 15 minutes, then an agm takes it out from some arial drone. |
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Jan 25 2005, 10:07 PM
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#73
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Easiest and most likely way to do it with gangers. Have one jump in his ford americar and floor it.
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Jan 25 2005, 11:00 PM
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#74
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ok so i dont know a .50 from a 25mm by visual inspection. and the amount of time shown was about 10 seconds or so (focused on the building, not the gun).
my comment about the afv was not so much about useing a heavy vehicle for the job as spraying the target from the outside rather then going inside, so why are they sending the drone into harms way (outside it can be coverd by a second drone, probably airborne, and maybe troops). this is allso gangers, not partisans, so why bring in the drone at all? pop some neuro-stun or teargas tru any opening and wait. then maybe send in the drone to look around.
then there is the question of what kind of building they have occupied. again, if we are talking a gang on their home turf then we are most likely talking a building marked for demolition or similar abandoned strucuture. how knows what state its in? maybe the walls are weak allready? yes you cant pack a big deal of firepower into a firmpoint but its the amount of holes thats the problem, not the size of them. drill enough holes in any weight carrying beam and it will break. and with other holes weakening the surrounding structure your looking at a collapse waiting to happen. sure bigger holes means you need less of them and the walls can be stronger. still, if we are looking at a building made of reinforced concrete or similar then why have they not turned it into a bunker. complete with guards at the door and hopefully as so heavy a door as they can get their hands on. and keep it closed at all times when not in use. if the drone cant get in, a lot of the problems are gone. there is to many unknowns in this thread to say either or. if the drone is allready in, go for sensory overload/confusion and then split. sound detection can be taken out simple by makeing noice all over the place (ultrasound is the diffrent beast). visuals? cover the drone with spray paint, get some smoke going or direct some sharp lights at it. ir? bonfires acts nicely as glare. radar? never underestimate the effect moveing metal objects can have on the radar reflections. hell, chaff is still just strips of metal foil. at worst you increase the noice ratio. but if you see any sign that the drone is confused, get the hell out via any exit available. if the drone is not in, make every effort to keep it out and to keep a heavy wall or similar between it and you. you may be pinned down but if the drone cant get to you, you can hang around until either reinforcements comes along (for you and/or it) or it have to return for recharge ;) |
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Jan 26 2005, 01:08 AM
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#75
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
While I appreciate the thought you've put into this, the situation with the gangers isn't the issue, the difficulty in damaging a drone with armor 6+ is.
Heck, the party doesn't even have a doberman yet. I'm just looking to the future. |
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