 How to kill a doberman, drone that is |
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 Jan 26 2005, 01:21 AM
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#76
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Beetle Eater  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826  |
I guess my advice is to throw "realism" out the window and just have fun with missiles, vindicator miniguns, explosives and armored vehicles. Seriously, gangs in SR are supposed to be a threat to Lone Star and go-go gangs rumble with the metroplex guard and military; they must have anti-vehicle weapons.
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Jan 26 2005, 01:33 AM
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#77
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
My only problem with that is that it means the opposition has weapons capable of dealing 16D damage, or they have ammunition with an availability of 18. If its the former, the party memers that aren't drones are going to splatter pretty fast. If its the latter, where did they get them from?
Thsnkd to sll of the replies in the thread! I've told my rigger's player to go ahead andstart loking into acquiring armored drones. |
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Jan 26 2005, 01:39 AM
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#78
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Well, I suggest a really limited number of missiles to limit TPK. Say the gang acquired a bunch of disposable missile launchers from a beat out with an Aztechnology hunting party and they've used most of them up. I mean, the weapons have to come from somewhere... So they pull out the RPG when the team pulls out the Doberman.
Availability is also a measure of how willing people are to part with their toys, but for the corps this isn't an issue: they make the weapons. Most often when my team wants high availability stuff they knock over a corp transport or warehouse (hell, in the first mention of APDS we have a single runner hitting Fort Lewis!). |
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Jan 26 2005, 01:56 AM
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#79
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Whoa...I think I misunderstood this the first time I read it. You're looking for ways a GM can damage a Doberman?? The world's your oyster, brother. You can use almost anything you want. If you want to keep it "even" (or make it easy for the PCs), just send NPC Rigger with a Doberman to go head to head with the PCs. Your NPCs can be as advanced or as weak as needed to provide a challenge to your players. James, straighten me out here if I'm reading this wrong but did you just ask us to help you (as GM) whack your PCs drone? If so, you do know that any idea we threw up here, at least one of your players saw, right? In fact, it was SBF that sent this thread into the "Gangers vs. the Doberman" spin. Please tell me I've got this wrong. |
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Jan 26 2005, 02:00 AM
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#80
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I don't think Short Bus and James have an "Us vs Them" relationship. From everything I've read, they both want to make things as "level" for all the players as possible.
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Jan 26 2005, 02:16 AM
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#81
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Kevyn668 and Kanada Ten are both right. I am looking for ways to put a dent in the players' drones without having to pull out the vindicator minicannon's. SBF is trying to make sure that his character doesn't leave the rest of the players in the dust. We've got an odd assortment of two powergamers, two standard power level gamers, and one guy that isn;t concerned about what his character's stats are, so long as it fits the idea of who he wants to be.
That makes keeping things balanced a bit of a problem from this side of the screen, so to speak. The fact that I don't use a screen also makes things exceedingly difficult to balalnce. What can dent the ork physad and doberman drone will put a bit smoking hole in the mage and the B&E artist. I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more threads around here of me trying to find the oblique angle of attack for things that will make the adventures challenging for all, instead of challenging for some and devestating for the rest. :) |
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Jan 26 2005, 02:28 AM
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#82
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I don't doubt that.
Okay, that adds a lot of perspective. My appologies if either of you took any offense. Your crew makes it difficult to maintain a balance.
Brother, you have got to get a screen. Even if you suscribe to the "I never lie to/cheat my players even if it works in their favor" theory of GMing, there are still a bunch of advantages. At the very least, your PCs don't know how many dice your rolling. Use some cardboard and tape pictures of hot babes to the outside. That'll help distract them. :D Post threads. We'll help. :) |
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Jan 26 2005, 02:31 AM
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#83
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Part of what you'll have to do is split the team up from time to time. The rigger needs to assault the generator as the physad and B&E duo wade through paranormals and traps in the sewers, all while the mage infultrates the building to distract the security forces with spirits and illusions (or control manipulations). Stuff like that. Though really, shadowrunning is a rather lethal profession.
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Jan 26 2005, 02:35 AM
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#84
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's not a bad idea. splitting the characters up also allows each character to hog the spotlight in their own situation, which is always fun for the player. not as much fun for the DM, i guess; tracking and collating multiple simultaneous scenarios can be a pain in the ass.
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Jan 26 2005, 02:38 AM
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#85
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I can't believe I'm suggesting it, but CCSS is also something to keep the rigger occupied, and since you don't seem to have a decker it works well. Just make sure the locks are all on a separate system (ie, have the CCSS only control internal drones and sensors) so that the B&E guy isn't out of it.
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Jan 26 2005, 02:39 AM
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#86
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Plus the other players have to just sit around waiting for thier respective turns...
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Jan 26 2005, 02:40 AM
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#87
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hence the scooby-doo concept. ("let's split up, gang!")
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Jan 26 2005, 02:42 AM
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#88
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I get to go with Daphne (as portrayed by Buffy).
If it were just two groups, it might be a little better. |
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Jan 26 2005, 02:46 AM
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#89
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
That's just one example of a split.
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Jan 26 2005, 03:00 AM
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#90
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Just offering a thought.
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Jan 26 2005, 04:09 AM
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#91
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
For more CCSS, re-read the Security section in R3, pg. 45. The access control is often separate from the internal security as CCSS is typically slow to respond to security checks where Matrix is inefficient in maintaining threat response to incursion. The Matrix system tells the CCSS rigger where the problem first occured, they track it from there and start shooting.
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Jan 26 2005, 04:39 AM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
First of all, i reccomend the old Call of Chuthulu GM screen. nice artwork, and all these fun charts. good for any game.
The easiest way by far to deal with a drone rigger is with jamming and electronic countermesures. A good jammer is a lot more portable than most the weapons that could hurt some drones. once the drone is no longer under the riggers control, it should be fairly easy to disable. can the drone be flipped upside down? Can i splash paint on its optics? spraypaint is something a ganger would have readily availible. For ultrasound, white noise is your freind. Thermal smoke gernades are usefull. toss a couple for cover and run. once you lose him, you can counterstrike. The Biggest vunerability of a rigger is that they MUST have a strong transmiting signal to control that drone... Triangulate that signal and goodbye rigger. |
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Jan 26 2005, 04:58 AM
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#93
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Course, then you have robots, who can act think for themselves, or standing orders for your drones. Things like "Defend my body" Or "Return home" Or quite possibly "Shoot anyone except my team".
Another one I like, is a backup laser communication. Have 5-10 micro rotodrones with laser gear on them, then you can launch them and have them relay a signal to the done thats been jammed, then you can continue to order it simple things, like kill him, return home, etc. Also a great favorite, a drone with an arm attachted. As a matter of fact, the IWS MK 6 (Armed) is a GREAT starting drone for only 22,000. Avail 8, cheap, 4 armor, comes with one str 6 arm and a firmpoint. 6 sig too, not bad at all. (Pg 174 R3R) |
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Jan 26 2005, 07:22 AM
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#94
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Sorry about continuing the thread hijack, James McMurray. I really haven't got any advice on your dilemma, so you can just ignore this if you wish.
Killing people who are inside a structure with small arms fire from the outside is all but impossible, unless we're talking about a very small structure with plastic/cardboard/sheet metal/wooden walls. That's why I noted the fact that the US forces in Falluja used 25mm autocannons for this -- nothing smaller will do the trick. In metropolitan areas, most structures are made of concrete, reinforced or not, and whatever replacement materials (plascrete?) are available in the 2060s will be just as hard to break through. 8"/20cm of reinforced concrete, rather common for an outer wall of any large urban structure, takes 35 rounds from a 5.56x45mm (assault rifles, LMGs) to achieve any penetration, or about a dozen from a 7.62x51mm (MMG). To riddle a concrete building of any size, then, would require tens of thousands of rounds from small arms. A small drone won't deliver that kind of firepower. Dunno what "neighborhood housing" stands for though -- if those are mostly wooden (or plastic in the 2060s) houses, putting the buildings full of holes might work. As might gas in the first CTs when the gangers still don't know what hit them, but that won't last for long.
Why would they? Why would the fortify a concrete building any better than a wooden building? In fact, it would make sense to fortify the wooden building better, since it's far more difficult to defend against any kind of intrusion to begin with. |
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Jan 26 2005, 07:56 AM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
:P OK, massively off topic: Where would people get the plastic to make these buildings? Even today plastic would not be economic for a building material, and after oil starts running out it will get a lot worse. Maybe one of the megas biomodified a plant to produce cheap plastic, and it uses so much of the field space formerly used for crops that everyone eats soy? :D |
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Jan 26 2005, 08:01 AM
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#96
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Beats me, but obviously plastics are supposed to be used for such things in SR. At least "Plastisteel" is supposed to be a rather common building material. |
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Jan 26 2005, 11:34 AM
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#97
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
Really, I say find ways to use terrain to your advantage. Tight quarters are difficult for rotodrones, broken terrain slows down the wheeled ones. For example, if the gangers retreat across a large drainage ditch, or viaduct, and then blow the ways across, the drone can get to the edge, but not across under it's own power.
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Jan 26 2005, 01:08 PM
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#98
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
in blue planet they talk about bacteria that produce plastic just by putting them into the mold you want and adding a food source, given a bit of time and you have a readymade wall section.
and what makes concrete strong is the metal reinforcements. without those it would not be able to carry its own weight. its only with cheap massproduced metal supports that concrete have become the material of choice. before that it was only the glue that holds the blicks together. the concrete stops the metal from bending under pressure, the metal binds the concrete together. take out one and the weight of the rest of the structure will crush it all to dust. and plastic (like any composite) can be made so that it is strong in one direction and weak in a diffrent one (therefor makeing it lightweight), maybe they make the walls thin but have a patterning of fibers in it so that it does not bend under pressure? take out the pattern and flop goes the wall. and the hardness of the concrete allso depends on the blend. mix it cheap and it may be able to stand up but will not withstand much punishment. and there is allso the question of the thickness. again to many factors... |
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Jan 26 2005, 01:16 PM
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#99
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Also, a friend of mine lives in an area where the occaisonal report of small arms fire is not uncommon (Ocean Avenue in Virginia Beach), a 9 mm round penetrated through the brick facing and lodged in an interior structural wall. Brick is pretty rough stuff to penetrate. Also, I can't garuntee it was a 9mm but given that the calibre seems to be the round of choice for most criminals and it's incredibly available world wide, it's a safe bet.
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Jan 26 2005, 02:04 PM
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#100
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
True enough. If a building is made out of concrete, it's going to be concrete reinforced with metal rods, what, 99+% of the time? Which only further proves that causing any large buildings in urban areas to collapse is all but impossible with small arms.
How thick was the brick facing? Doesn't strike me as strange, pistol rounds will tend to perform better at close ranges against such objects than, say, assault rifles. US Army Field Manual 90-10-1 AN INFANTRYMAN'S GUIDE TO COMBAT IN BUILT-UP AREAS says a brick veneer is sufficient protection against 5.56x45mm FMJs (standard assault rifle ammunition) at less than 50 meters. A 23cm thick double brick wall will take ~70 rounds from an assault rifle or a LMG to achieve initial penetration through, a 30cm thick cinder block wall with a brick veneer will take around 60 rounds. Producing a 20cm diameter hole in the former will take around 120 rounds, while producing a 60cm diameter hole in the latter will take around 250 rounds -- and that's when you're specifically trying to put a big hole in the wall. The M2 .50BMG heavy machine gun will make short work of the above materials with only a dozen or so rounds, but even it is pretty helpless against concrete buildings. Against 25cm of concrete, it'll take 50 rounds to produce a 30cm diameter hole, 100 rounds for a 60cm hole. In a 30cm thick triple brick wall it takes 15 rounds for a 20cm hole, 50 rounds for a 65cm hole. Against a 30cm thick wall made of a brick veneer and concrete blocks, it takes 25 .50 BMG rounds to produce a 25cm hole, 45 rounds for a 84cm hole. So, to reduce to rubble the face of a 10 meters wide by 2.5 meters tall building the outer wall of which is made of 25cm thick reinforced concrete, you need to blast it with at least ~7000 rounds from a heavy machine gun or more than 20000 rounds with a MMG. Sounds like a fun way to spend an afternoon... Admittedly I don't know enough about engineering to figure out if the face of the building might collapse some time before that. |
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