Melee Combat and Guns Options

[lopus]

I've a rather silly question ... I think.

In all the years I've been playing shadowrun (on and off since 1st Ed back in the really late 80s) I've never been in a situation like the one I've encountered recently.

One of my players decided to insanely charge a bunch (4) of heavily armed (AK-98s) gangers. Rather than shoot them he runs for them and starts a melee. Where the heck are the rules about shooting while in melee in SR3???

[mfb]

the gangers each take +2 to their firing TNs. that's pretty much it.

[lopus]

Lemme see if I get this straight.

4 gangbangers w/ AK-98s (regular ammo, Assault Rifle Skill 4/AK-98 6) in Armored Jackets (Ballistic 5 / Impact 3)
vs.
1 Troll cyber-monster w/ Claymore (BOD 15(16) due to Dermal Plating 3 and Titanium Bone Lacing; Pole Arms 6/Claymore 7) in Armored Jacket and Half-Body Form Fit suit (Ballistic 9 / Impact 5)

Assume gangbangers win initiative and each fires off two 3-round bursts (TN 6 and 9 respectively) each dealing 11S damage which the armor of the troll reduces to 2S damage (assuming half the bursts hit) which his 16 BOD dice will pretty much mean squat damage taken.
Troll rushes in, attacks the gangers (+2 per opponent right?) at a TN of 12 less his reach of 3 (Troll 1 + Claymore 2) and his Aptitude in Pole Arms reducing his TN to 8 dealing damage roughly of 16D (thanks to Muscle Augmentation 4 and Dikote on his claymore) - except the players argued that the troll shouldn't be taking the +2 per opponent penalty since none of the gangers are technically set up for melee combat.

Technically the troll will wipe the floor with the gangers.

Ehr ... is it just me or is something wrong with this picture?

[Crusher Bob]

Within 14-20 feet a knife will almost always will against a gun (at least if you do the rushing stabbing madly approach). This used to be a srious problem for cops, as anyone that close who had a knife could probably kill you before you could shoot them. With the new vests, your survival odds are much better...

Where a bunch of gangers learns to shoot like that (4/6) I have no idea...
The best I'd expect them to have would be 1/3 or 2 in gun skills. It takes actual training to get much better than that, and gang members tend not to have the means a discipline...

[The Jopp]

Well, just so that the Troll player doesn't start thinking that gangs are simple cannon fodder let's add the following modifiers to the pot.

Home ground: All gangers have a -1TN on all actions, this troll IS attacking them in their turf after all.

Friends in Melee: Well, IF the troll manages to attack ALL of them at once then there should be an additional -3 to their TN to hit in close combat (if they harm in is another matter)

Aiming: Aim+BF should become a -1 TN for hitting him.

Called shot: Why BF when you CAN aim for an unarmoured spot (no matter what the rules say, IF a ganger shoot the troll in the EYE there is no armoured jacket to save him...

Friends: 4 gangers, that's no gang, you just forgot about those fifteen other pals tooting everything from light pistols, knives, heavy pistols and perhaps even someone awakened.

Besides, I do think that the example with monster troll is a bit excessive. I have played SR for quite some time and it is very rare that one of our player characters ever have a body above 10. Pitching a power campaign combat troll against a few gangers is just about silly.

[Crusher Bob]

Calling such a situation 'silly' in a realistic world is not quite accuurate, 'as expected' is much more appropriate. You can run over the gangers in a tank too, it is hardly 'silly' that the gang members can't do much more than run away.

My wallhacker there who is in the top .00001% or so of close combat killing machines on the planet should be able to run in and chop 4 people to bits...

[mfb]

so the question is, is there something wrong with a purpose-built damage soaking machine being able to soak lots and lots of damage? i'm gonna have to go with "no", bob.

[lopus]

The troll is being played by a 1st-timer, using the SR3 Companion rules with 130 build points (just so that she doesn't feel so left behind by the other players who have been playing for about a year now). She can't talk too well and is slooooooow to boot, but boy can she take it and dish it out ... hand to hand combat that is.

Most of the other PCs are more reasonable (except maybe the mage that refuses to even use combat spells, relying on his dart pistol and enhanced aim spell force 6 that is quickened) with a variety of SMGs and Heavy Pistols.

They were fighting the other gangers when the 4 "leader" types came out to support their group. The troll player just surprised us all by charging forward (yes she was shot many times but nothing actually damaged her).

She attacked them one at a time, pretty much daring them to hurt her.

BTW, should I have NOT applied the +2 penalty for each ganger on the troll?

[Crusher Bob]

Hmm, for the first attack, maybe not as it dosen't sound like the gangers were expecting it either. For the following rounds, I guess it would depend on what the actions of the gangers were...

Let's say the following was what the three remaining gangers decided to do:

1: I'll try to butt stroke him with my rifle. (This one is entering 'normal' close combat)

2: I'll try to shoot him (at very close range) (This one is also 'in close combat')

3: I'll backup (leave close combat) and then try to shoot him. (This one is 'leaving' the combat to try to avoid the +2 penatly of using guns in combat)

This would mean the the troll is fighting 2 guys, with whatever modifier that means...

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Crusher Bob]

Isn't combat pool adding limited by base skill and not the specialization? (Or was that adept added dice, can't remember?)

[Austere Emancipa...]

[ES_Riddle]

Friends in melee would definitely count in this case, and AE is right on with the TN's if the gangers have clubs skill. The troll is in a world of hurt because only 5 out of every 36 of her rolls will be a success, but the ganger she's facing is going to have 5 out of every 6. That means that if the ganger is rolling 2 dice on clubs and 2 combat pool, the troll had better be rolling 24 dice if she wants an even chance of success. 16D doesn't matter unless she can manage to connect with one of them.

[BitBasher]

Aaaah, +4 tn for running isn't on the table for melee modifiers, it's only on the table for ranged attack modifiers, which this isn't. Melee apparently has no movement modifiers at all unless I'm looking at it wrong.

[waftalia]

The troll is being played by a 1st-timer, using the SR3 Companion rules with 130 build points (just so that she doesn't feel so left behind by the other players who have been playing for about a year now). She can't talk too well and is slooooooow to boot, but boy can she take it and dish it out ... hand to hand combat that is.

isnt this the point of a troll killing machine?

also a body above 10 for a troll isnt anywhere near unreasonable.

[Solstice]

wow those are some ELITE gangers you have there. Remind me never to stray into the territory of THE DELTA FORCE COMMANDO CRACK RIFLE SQUAD gang.

[Kanada Ten]

Eh? You mean the guns or the armor? He did say these were the leaders, but AKs and armor jackets for a rumble is elite?

[edit] I guess, for myself, I still think back to this image from the cover of my first SR purchase, the DMZ, when I think of gangs...

[RedmondLarry]

[mfb]

i dunno. the fact that movement modifiers are included in the ranged combat table, but not the melee table, tends to imply that the designers didn't intend for them to be applied to melee combat. i'm aware that a strictly legal reading of the rules doesn't support this--but a strictly legal reading of the rules supports applying movement modifiers twice in ranged combat (once for the movement-mods-apply-to-everything rule, and again for the additional modifiers presented in the ranged combat table). for that reason, i'm going to say that the strictly legal reading is the incorrect reading.

note that this isn't the only case where the strictly legal reading provides the wrong rule. for instance, the wording for magician adept initiation is terribly misleading, as are the rules for centering multiple times per init pass.

[ES_Riddle]

[kevyn668]

Are the chargers on horse back?

[Tarantula]

[lopus]

Uhhm, she attacked the gang leader-types one at a time. Took her 5 full rounds to take them out. (She was very lucky in turn 4 and had 2 actions).

Solstice, I dunno about you, but pretty much all the info I've read stated how tough the Ancients are supposed to be. I just built the damned gangers on 100 build points except for the leader types at 130. How do you do it?

[TeOdio]

Make the Gangers as tough as you think they should be. It's just a GAME. A real life ganger is taken pretty seriously by most folks if they have an AK in their hands. But player's, knowing the "rules", are less likely to be afraid of them. If as a GM, you want to make ganger's a threat, perhaps they may have mil training. Most of the Hell's Angels and other biker gangs in the 50's and 60's were made up of ex military types, albeit mostly Air Force. Maybe's someones been providing "training". Maybe they spend all of their free time playing First Person Shooters on pirated Matrix feeds. I could think of a million justifications why a ganger could be adept with a gun. But that being said, a Troll is HARD to take down when they have some armor... as it should be.
:nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen:

[Austere Emancipa...]