IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Just a quick reference question, On SINS!
Gyro the Greek S...
post Jan 26 2005, 02:05 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 384
Joined: 18-August 03
From: North VA
Member No.: 5,519



Hey, I was trying to do a search on SIN across the topics on the board and it wouldn't let me-under four characters or somesuch nonsense. I'm doing a little research on the subject of valid SINs, as one of my characters will be running with one, and I wanted to see some of the possibilities that could crop up as documented by others.

So if somebody could link me, I'd be much obliged.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Jan 26 2005, 02:11 AM
Post #2


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=827
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gyro the Greek S...
post Jan 26 2005, 02:18 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 384
Joined: 18-August 03
From: North VA
Member No.: 5,519



Many thanks :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Jan 26 2005, 02:21 AM
Post #4


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



I know there was more (though I too had trouble finding them), but that one has the added bonus of Polaris.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mfb
post Jan 26 2005, 02:37 AM
Post #5


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 11,410
Joined: 1-October 03
From: Pittsburgh
Member No.: 5,670



kinda like finding half a worm in your apple, that bonus.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Jan 26 2005, 02:39 AM
Post #6


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



If by that you mean bitter taste but full of good-for-you protien, then I agree. The dude had some great ideas... and some other stuff. <sniffile> He was like me, only more so.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kevyn668
post Jan 26 2005, 02:40 AM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,751
Joined: 8-August 03
From: Neighbor of the Beast
Member No.: 5,375



Heh, I forgot he did that "adressing" thing in his posts. Or blocked it out.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Xirces
post Jan 26 2005, 12:27 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 345
Joined: 10-February 03
From: Leeds, UK
Member No.: 4,046



Argh!

SINs seem to be the most poorly thought out and worst implemented "features" of the 6th world - the fact that nobody seems to know how it works and whether it's even worthwhile having one speaks volumes.

Might have to start a new thread to discuss it :D
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bitrunner
post Jan 26 2005, 02:50 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: 28-June 02
From: Orlando FL
Member No.: 2,915



they are described in pretty good detail in the Sprawl Survival Guide...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Xirces
post Jan 26 2005, 02:55 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 345
Joined: 10-February 03
From: Leeds, UK
Member No.: 4,046



QUOTE (bitrunner)
they are described in pretty good detail in the Sprawl Survival Guide...

Which I'll be buying shortly assuming I can find a copy... :)

Even those who have read it don't seem to agree on how SINs work and a small amount of applied knowledge from RL shows major problems with the implementation as described. Add to that the conflicting information in other source books and it really is a big mess. Hopefully the SSG does clear it up to the point where the notion becomes usable in games.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bitrunner
post Jan 26 2005, 02:59 PM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: 28-June 02
From: Orlando FL
Member No.: 2,915



what is it about SINs that you're having trouble with?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Jan 26 2005, 05:02 PM
Post #12


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



Yeah, What is your specific problem, I don't have any problem with figuring out SINs...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Xirces
post Jan 26 2005, 06:33 PM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 345
Joined: 10-February 03
From: Leeds, UK
Member No.: 4,046



QUOTE (bitrunner)
what is it about SINs that you're having trouble with?

For a start - the issue about whether runners should have SINs, or not. The original flavour (I started with 1st edition) was that runners are in the shadows and hence do not have SINs - there's a lot of material to support that both rules-wise and flavour-text. The 2nd edition opening story has Sidewinder removing her SIN records once she joins the runners. Part of my dislike is coloured by earlier experiences - there were no fake SINs when I started playing!

Read Shadowbeat p86 - this is one of the earliest mentions about the advantages of having a SIN (or not) - specifically it's those *mostly* legal archetypes that suffer - definately painted as a disadvantage for "proper" runners...

The way that the SIN and ID work in the game-world seems wrong to me. I can buy the whole "every legal purchase uses your credstick and is verified against your ID", "all travel uses ID" etc... - everything you do gets logged against your SIN - which is why not having one causes people to use the black market, shadow-taxis etc. Certified cred works and needs no verification, which is why runners (and beggars, prostitutes, BTL dealers etc) use it.

Some of my issues are based upon assumptions I have about how the system works. I guess that there are two authentication systems. One is on-stick only (the passcode, fingerprint, retinal scan or whatever) which is accepted for transaction values to x:nuyen: , for values greater than that system verification is performed (which is where the rating of the verification unit is used) . This basically means that every transaction upto 5000:nuyen: is never verified by the system, which doesn't seem right.

If all verification is done through "the system" then how does that information stay synchronised with the credstick (ie, what if I change my passcode) and, for that matter, why do credsticks have ratings? Perhaps every legal transaction goes through a double authentication process?

If you're using the stick purely for ID purposes (ie, LS pull you over) what happens? You provide your authentication method (retinal scan for instance), the friendly LS officer using his portable verification unit transmits the details back to the SIN system and confirms that the details match - photo, description, driving and vehicle license, firearms permit etc. then waves you on your way (assuming all checks out). Is that correct? What happens with a fake ID/credstick? Why is it any different than using a real one?

What happens when someone has multiple IDs? If I was setting up such a system I'd make sure that it can't happen - even David Blunkett's stupid Nazi^^^National Id scheme does basic cross-referencing to prevent this (I know it's Blunkett no more, but I still hold him responsible). When alternative ID methods are used (blood test for instance) which ID will the system return? I'd hope - all of them - and get the stupid criminal in jail immediately.

This is particularly applicable when the CSI team gets evidence from a crime scene - that drop of blood, or hair WILL incriminate you at some point. Immediately the investigators know you have multiple IDs with residence information for each and purchasing and travel history - how long before they catch you? With no SIN there's no chance of that happening. Even switching fake SINs shouldn't help much against this.

"Sarge. That guy you were looking for seems to have died"
"OK, check to see if the DNA matches any more 'people'"

Maybe small crimes will not warrant the continued attention, but how quickly will LS close a murder hunt or stop tracking someone whos' DNA was found at multiple crime sites over a period of time? The reasons cited for a runner to have a SIN (legal purchases etc) do not stand up to the problems caused when it's compromised.

I'm sure I had some more issues, but as far as I can tell, the only way that such a system *could* work would require criminal elements to by-pass it completely. I get the impression that some people think it's analagous to simply getting carded in today's world and you can just have multiple cards and hand-over which ever you want - it just wouldn't work like that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jrayjoker
post Jan 26 2005, 07:41 PM
Post #14


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,453
Joined: 17-September 04
From: St. Paul
Member No.: 6,675



The biggest issue I have with SINs is their name. It seems a bit sophomric to me to use such a judeo-christian word for something that the government came up with. Too much baggeage comes along with that word for it to have made it into RL use.

OTOH it helps get across the dystopian (name that 6 figure line developer wannbe) nature of SR.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Jan 26 2005, 07:58 PM
Post #15


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



My take on muiltiple fakes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Jan 26 2005, 08:27 PM
Post #16


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
The biggest issue I have with SINs is their name. It seems a bit sophomric to me to use such a judeo-christian word for something that the government came up with. Too much baggeage comes along with that word for it to have made it into RL use.

OTOH it helps get across the dystopian (name that 6 figure line developer wannbe) nature of SR.

It's just an acronym for System Identification Number. hence the all caps. Nothing realted to the moral failing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bitrunner
post Jan 26 2005, 10:18 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: 28-June 02
From: Orlando FL
Member No.: 2,915



QUOTE (BitBasher)
It's just an acronym for System Identification Number. hence the all caps. Nothing realted to the moral failing.

not necessarily true!! there is a whole concept of a dystopian world inherent in having the SIN, because in Revelations, there are certain passages that can be considered that all men will be known by a number, all business transactions will be known by a number, and so forth...there are extremists out there that revolted against having a Social Security Number and using UPC bar codes. Not only do using these numbers fulfill some of the prophecies in Revelations, but it strips us of our individuality and as people - we are reduced to merely a series of numbers, where everything we do can be cross-referenced in a database. THAT is dystopia and dark future...there are even those that think we're heading for a time when we'll have our numbers tattoo-ed on our bodies/forehead...hence why doing so to the Jews by the Nazis branded them as being agents of Satan.

If you voluntarily get rid of your SIN, and become SINless, you are showing that you are an individual, free, and not a cog of the government/corporate machine...

Ratings - please remember that only FAKE ids have ratings. A real credstick is REAL and will always pass (unless someone has messed with the records). REAL credsticks do not have ratings.

Readers - you always use a reader for your credstick - using a credstick is little different from using an ATM/Debit card today. If you buy gas at the pump, you only have to use your PIN. How do you change the PIN on your card?? You normally have to go to the bank to do it. Some smartcards allow you to do it over the net, i think. In SSG, you can go to any public dataterminal and slot your credstick to change your PIN/passcode. This is how the sticks stay "synchronized"...when you transfer money with someone via a pocket secretary or other means, it temporarily stores that info until the next time you use a unit connected to the matrix. this is similar to using PayPal with palm pilots right now.

Running your ID - A Lone Star cop is probably not going to have a reader with retinal identification on it. That would be back at the precinct. A handheld reader would have fingerprint ID at most...When asked to check your ID, it connects to the databases and gives them data they can use to ask you questions. It is no different than having them run your driver's license today and have the stuff come up on their computers in the car. A fake ID is no different than a fake driver's license - same concept. If the ID says you're an ORK, and you are a HUMAN, the LS officer may wish to ask you more pointed questions. They also are just going to "read" you...if you seem nervous, then they're going to keep going. If you appear calm, and you answer their questions, and everything seems to check out (ie the credstick came back as "good" opposed by the reader), then they'll probably let you go, unless you happen to match a description or something more suspicious.

Multiple IDs - These are primarilly used for posing as different people. Yes, if you're sticks are high enough to have fingerprint, retinal, or DNA data directly attached to you, and someone is checking THAT data from the backend, then it would probably pull up all your records. You hope that don't happen. What you use multiples for is stuff like Bob for renting that flophouse apartment that you use on the "job", Tom for that middle class apartment that you normally use, Pete for your safehouse apartment, Joe for purchasing your normal gear and your vehicle permits, and Rick for when you need to get through the airport. In all these cases, they slot your stick and it pulls up the database record associated ONLY WITH THAT STICK - then they check your fingerprint to see if it is "you". They don't check your fingerprint and have it pull up the record, that would take much longer.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Jan 26 2005, 10:28 PM
Post #18


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



QUOTE
not necessarily true!! there is a whole concept of a dystopian world inherent in having the SIN,
Really, SR isn't really a dystopia anymore than the world of today is. It's not like more hardcore cyberpunk, the average ciutizen really isn't that bad off.

QUOTE
because in Revelations, there are certain passages that can be considered that all men will be known by a number, all business transactions will be known by a number, and so forth
Again, that's not dystopian, that already happens today. You have a Social Security number today, and Many countries have national ID's.

QUOTE
...there are extremists out there that revolted against having a Social Security Number and using UPC bar codes. Not only do using these numbers fulfill some of the prophecies in Revelations, but it strips us of our individuality and as people - we are reduced to merely a series of numbers
Although this is also really a silly argument because your name is "merely a collection of letters", actually less unique really than a series of numbers. Many people can share your name, but noone can share your Social Security Number / SIN. You gain MORE individualty with a SIN.

QUOTE
where everything we do can be cross-referenced in a database. THAT is dystopia and dark future...
No it's not. It's today. This already happens. Not shocking. Not futuristic.

QUOTE
If you voluntarily get rid of your SIN, and become SINless, you are showing that you are an individual, free, and not a cog of the government/corporate machine...
Er no, that's not right. It means you are SINless and not afforded the rights of full citizens, and life is more difficult for you. Border travel is restricted, and in may ways you have less freedom that someone with a SIN... Unless you plan to be a criminal, where it is an advantage. You get screwed on housing, you get less entertainment by canon... There are many downsides to not having a SIN and few upsides unless you are an SR.

[edit]
Incidentally, on lower level fake SIN's, you just don't have the correct DNA profile, you have a non-existant one, same for retina. Since the low level scanners never use retina or DNA except for very high cash transactions then it's a non-issue. If you get pulled into a police station where they do a 1 to N serach versus all matching DNA and retina you're screwed anyway.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Jan 27 2005, 12:43 AM
Post #19


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



As far as the SIN acronym is concerned, in real life Canada's version of the Social Security Number is called a Social Insurance Number, or SIN. :D
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hahnsoo
post Jan 27 2005, 03:31 AM
Post #20


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,587
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Berkeley, CA
Member No.: 7,014



While Shadowrun isn't truly a dystopian cyberpunk setting, the concept of every person having some sort of identification number as an element of the dehumanizing influence of technology is a common cyberpunk theme. It is no different than the Social Security Number that we have now... as to the formation of the SIN, I imagine some UCAS bureau/technocrat thinking "Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to memorize all those credit card, insurance, social security, etc. numbers?" and pushing for some sort of national registry to centralize it all to a single number. Given the unstable political situation in pre-SR timelines, I could imagine everyone (read: Rich Corporations) thinking this to be a Grand Idea ™.

In terms of the game, Shadowrunners typically work outside legal channels... they do not have SINs (except for temporary ones... forged identities or the SIN given to them when they are an unidentified criminal/body), which works both to their advantage and disadvantage. I was under the assumption, though, that Shadowrunners aren't the only ones without SINs... a large part of the underserved poor population also do not have SINs (akin to illegal aliens), prompting Dunkelzahn's "We'll give you a SIN and amnesty for free" when he was campaigning for prez (and subsequently it showed up in his will).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jrayjoker
post Jan 27 2005, 06:34 PM
Post #21


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,453
Joined: 17-September 04
From: St. Paul
Member No.: 6,675



QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Jan 26 2005, 12:41 PM)
The biggest issue I have with SINs is their name. It seems a bit sophomric to me to use such a judeo-christian word for something that the government came up with. Too much baggeage comes along with that word for it to have made it into RL use.

OTOH it helps get across the dystopian (name that 6 figure line developer wannbe) nature of SR.

It's just an acronym for System Identification Number. hence the all caps. Nothing realted to the moral failing.

Bullcrap. They chose SIN because it would connote the religious concept if sinfulness. Which is fine for a fictional number, but I find it a bit juvenile is all I'm saying. I still use the acronym and all that, but I don't care for the sound of it and all its baggage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Jan 27 2005, 06:37 PM
Post #22


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jan 26 2005, 02:27 PM)
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Jan 26 2005, 12:41 PM)
The biggest issue I have with SINs is their name. It seems a bit sophomric to me to use such a judeo-christian word for something that the government came up with. Too much baggeage comes along with that word for it to have made it into RL use.

OTOH it helps get across the dystopian (name that 6 figure line developer wannbe) nature of SR.

It's just an acronym for System Identification Number. hence the all caps. Nothing realted to the moral failing.

Bullcrap. They chose SIN because it would connote the religious concept if sinfulness. Which is fine for a fictional number, but I find it a bit juvenile is all I'm saying. I still use the acronym and all that, but I don't care for the sound of it and all its baggage.

I'm guessing you missed above where it's posted by fortune that:

QUOTE
As far as the SIN acronym is concerned, in real life Canada's version of the Social Security Number is called a Social Insurance Number, or SIN. 
Really man, sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar. Don't go looking too deep into everything. :)

Kind of like Nathanial Hawthorne, author of The Scarlet letter said he was astounded at what people had inferred as symbolism from his books, because it was all in their mind, he never intended any of it. None of it was symbolic of anything.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd April 2024 - 07:29 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.