Concealment Spirit Power, Hiding in the bushes... Options

[LinaInverse]

This came up in our last gaming session.

I don't have the book with me, but the general gist is this: The Nature Spirit power Concealment lets the spirit hide itself and others (ie, whoever the shaman designates) in its environment. The way it's worded seems to imply a degree of camoflage, as opposed to invisibility, but no details are provided. The only game-mechanic given is that it imposes a Perception test, with a tgt# equal to the spirit's Force (or added to a Per roll, if made under sub-optimal conditions). The power is listed as Physical, so we felt it must apply to cameras as well as living beings.

Does this apply to all forms of detection or just visual? If visual, does it apply to IR or LL vision systems?

Does this apply if the concealed parties move or only if they stand stock-still?

[mfb]

all forms of physical perception, since it doesn't specify. that means that it doesn't apply to astral perception, but it does apply to sound, scent, IR, ultrasound, etcetera.

[Crimson Jack]

I always imagined that this was similar to the effect that Indiana Jones experiences in the third booby trap puzzle in Last Crusade... the leap of faith walkway. Its technically right there in front of you and only a subtle shift in perception allows one to see the form for what it is.

[Kanada Ten]

It applies even if they move so long as they remain in the domain. Isn't there a limit to the number effected (Force or something) or is that only for Great Spirits?

[Mumbles]

The rules say that the spirit can use its powers on more than one person simultaneuously.

Great Form Spirits can use any of their powers on a number of people simultaneously equal to their Force which is handy for the rest of the Nature Spirit powers that are normally only used on one target at a time.


I've played in groups where Concealment was house-ruled for normal Spirits. The maximum number of people concealed was equal to the Force of the spirit and Great Spirits could conceal up to their Force squared people.

If vehicles were being concealed, a Normal Spirit could conceal one Vehicle with a Body rating equal to its Force or smaller. A Great Form Spirit could conceal up to Force Vehicles, each with a maximum Body equal to the SPirits Force.

[Kanada Ten]

The reason Great Forms are limited to a number equal to Force is that they have no restriction on range. The Great Form can have x number of people Concealed all over the planet wherever they go.

[fistandantilus4....]

So is there any way to hide astrally (other than aura masking or just plain stealth)?
I remember from the dragon heart trilogy (I know some of you hate it, jsut referencing) that the spirit Lethe COULD hide them astrally as well, I assume with concealment.
I ask because I have a PC in my game with a Ruthenium Polymer stealth suit (similar to the Tir Ghosts) that also has some thermal dampening. He's also a silent way adept, so he's damn near impossible to spot. until the NPC mage astrally perceives and goes "There!"

Any ideas?

[Kanada Ten]

What's wrong with plane stealth?

The only options are Astral Static spells or Indirect Illusions that simply make people afraid to Astrally Perceive and such (mana warps, etc), by canon. Previous editions had extremely different rules about the astral plane.

[mfb]

we use a custom metamagic called Camouflaging that basically allows you to roll your Magic score as if it were your Stealth skill. your actual Stealth skill can be used as a complimentary roll.

[fistandantilus4....]

Only problem with astral static as camouflage is that it's kind of like using the storm power or fog spell to cover your entry. What guard in his right mind is gonna go "hmmm... fog from nowhere. Oh well, no reason to raise the alarm there." It's just the magical equivalent. He doesn't know WHAT's there, but it's a good guess there's SOMETHING there.
I do like the Metamagic though. That makes sense. I don't like that there's no way to hide from astral sight other than the good ol' hide-behind-the-bush. Being that if you try to hide with a spell, they just see a spell. I think I'll adopt that metamagic. Anything specific on it, or just magic attribute for stealth skill against astral sight?

[BitBasher]

If you adopt that metamagic consider the ramifications. Mages there are no way to see PERIOD. Welcome to totally unbalancing, population you.

[Tarantula]

Small note, thermosense organs wouldn't get affected by it the same as they aren't affected by the improved invis spell.

[waftalia]

we always pictured the concealment power to act like the predators camoflage from the arnold movie.

[toturi]

[mfb]

the balancing factor on that metamagic is that we use rules for rarer metamagics being more difficult to learn, and Camouflaging is pretty rare. also, taking overt magical action while you're Camouflaged has the same effect as taking overt physical action when you're hiding.

toturi is correct. concealment does not just hide from sight--it hides from all physical senses. thermosense is a physical sense, ergo concealment works against it. hell, theoretically, you could use high enough Concealment to ensure someone doesn't notice you punching them in the face. they'd feel the damage, but not the impact. (houserule i'd use: the TN to detect the actual punch is reduced by 2x the power of the attack, so it'd have to be some really high concealment (or a really wussy character) to work.)

[DocMortand]

Mrr....Suddenly I get the feeling that my group is going to walk around 24/7 with a Force 9 spirit concealing them whereever they go.

The only way I can think of to negate that advantage is to have more magical threats - which doesn't make too much sense in that it's supposed to only be a fraction of the population to be magically active...and I really don't want to go there.

So how does a GM balance this sort of thing? Frankly, it's stupid to restrict it - and now that I see that I was doing it wrong I am worried that it will make missions all the more harder to plan so that things aren't walk overs.

Any suggestions? (Lina, you can chime in too if you wish, although I have a feeling you probably won't. :) )

[hahnsoo]

Both Critters and the BBB say the same thing as far as Concealment:

[LinaInverse]

[hahnsoo]

[hahnsoo]

[fistandantilus4....]

I like the idea of requiring different metamagic requirements. Kind of like a weapon focus. It's 'balanced' by the karma cost. Personally, I don't think paying 40 or so karma balances against 4 extra dice in the long run. Especially if you make it your self and pay 9.
But anyways, I like requiring masking, that definitely seems the way to go. I don't know about filtering. That seems more of a connection to the spell matrix of ED. I was thinking more like requiring masking, and sensing from T:AL. Kind of feeling the ebb and flow of mana in the area, and synching with it. That way, the metamagic camo requires 3 grades of initiation, which is a pretty serious investment of karma (and passing up some other choice metamagic) in order to be able to 'hide' astrally.3 grades, is ,what, bare minimum 30 GK, with groups and ordeals at each.

[Lantzer]

We look at Concealment as a perception thing. You aren't being phycially hidden, just not percieved.

We once had a Troll PC who had trouble finding a house that had been concealed by a powerful spirit. He'd walk to the house on the right, look at the house number, walk to the house on the left, look at the house number, check the rest of the houses on the block, swear for a bit, and call in saying that there _was_ no such place. The house existed in a 'blind spot'.

The rest of the team was inside laughing their asses off, because they made their rolls.

[hahnsoo]

[elbows]

I try to "explain" concealment with some mechanism that fits with the type of spirit and the situation. For example, a sea spirit might provide concealment by summoning a fog. A hearth spirit might cause lights to dim subtly, or maybe guards just don't look in a particular direction.

As far as the game effects/balance, concealment is really powerful when combined with stealth -- even a wimpy Force 4 spirit makes stealthy characters almost undetectable (barring astral security).
On the other hand, if they try to use it to walk around in plain sight, just start stacking on the TN mods. I'd say seeing someone in plain sight is TN 2 (since normally no roll is needed). If they open a door or make noise, that will draw more attention and bring it even lower, so they'll need a big spirit to go undetected.

[Tarantula]