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LinaInverse
This came up in our last gaming session.

I don't have the book with me, but the general gist is this: The Nature Spirit power Concealment lets the spirit hide itself and others (ie, whoever the shaman designates) in its environment. The way it's worded seems to imply a degree of camoflage, as opposed to invisibility, but no details are provided. The only game-mechanic given is that it imposes a Perception test, with a tgt# equal to the spirit's Force (or added to a Per roll, if made under sub-optimal conditions). The power is listed as Physical, so we felt it must apply to cameras as well as living beings.

Does this apply to all forms of detection or just visual? If visual, does it apply to IR or LL vision systems?

Does this apply if the concealed parties move or only if they stand stock-still?
mfb
all forms of physical perception, since it doesn't specify. that means that it doesn't apply to astral perception, but it does apply to sound, scent, IR, ultrasound, etcetera.
Crimson Jack
I always imagined that this was similar to the effect that Indiana Jones experiences in the third booby trap puzzle in Last Crusade... the leap of faith walkway. Its technically right there in front of you and only a subtle shift in perception allows one to see the form for what it is.
Kanada Ten
It applies even if they move so long as they remain in the domain. Isn't there a limit to the number effected (Force or something) or is that only for Great Spirits?
Mumbles
The rules say that the spirit can use its powers on more than one person simultaneuously.

Great Form Spirits can use any of their powers on a number of people simultaneously equal to their Force which is handy for the rest of the Nature Spirit powers that are normally only used on one target at a time.


I've played in groups where Concealment was house-ruled for normal Spirits. The maximum number of people concealed was equal to the Force of the spirit and Great Spirits could conceal up to their Force squared people.

If vehicles were being concealed, a Normal Spirit could conceal one Vehicle with a Body rating equal to its Force or smaller. A Great Form Spirit could conceal up to Force Vehicles, each with a maximum Body equal to the SPirits Force.
Kanada Ten
The reason Great Forms are limited to a number equal to Force is that they have no restriction on range. The Great Form can have x number of people Concealed all over the planet wherever they go.
fistandantilus4.0
So is there any way to hide astrally (other than aura masking or just plain stealth)?
I remember from the dragon heart trilogy (I know some of you hate it, jsut referencing) that the spirit Lethe COULD hide them astrally as well, I assume with concealment.
I ask because I have a PC in my game with a Ruthenium Polymer stealth suit (similar to the Tir Ghosts) that also has some thermal dampening. He's also a silent way adept, so he's damn near impossible to spot. until the NPC mage astrally perceives and goes "There!"

Any ideas?
Kanada Ten
What's wrong with plane stealth?

The only options are Astral Static spells or Indirect Illusions that simply make people afraid to Astrally Perceive and such (mana warps, etc), by canon. Previous editions had extremely different rules about the astral plane.
mfb
we use a custom metamagic called Camouflaging that basically allows you to roll your Magic score as if it were your Stealth skill. your actual Stealth skill can be used as a complimentary roll.
fistandantilus4.0
Only problem with astral static as camouflage is that it's kind of like using the storm power or fog spell to cover your entry. What guard in his right mind is gonna go "hmmm... fog from nowhere. Oh well, no reason to raise the alarm there." It's just the magical equivalent. He doesn't know WHAT's there, but it's a good guess there's SOMETHING there.
I do like the Metamagic though. That makes sense. I don't like that there's no way to hide from astral sight other than the good ol' hide-behind-the-bush. Being that if you try to hide with a spell, they just see a spell. I think I'll adopt that metamagic. Anything specific on it, or just magic attribute for stealth skill against astral sight?
BitBasher
If you adopt that metamagic consider the ramifications. Mages there are no way to see PERIOD. Welcome to totally unbalancing, population you.
Tarantula
Small note, thermosense organs wouldn't get affected by it the same as they aren't affected by the improved invis spell.
waftalia
we always pictured the concealment power to act like the predators camoflage from the arnold movie.
toturi
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Small note, thermosense organs wouldn't get affected by it the same as they aren't affected by the improved invis spell.

Against concealment? All physical manner of detection suffers, not just visual. You do not see, you do not hear, you do not do thermosense. The only physical sense (as opposed to astral perception/projection) that totally bypasses the need to make Perception checks is from those Detect spells.
mfb
the balancing factor on that metamagic is that we use rules for rarer metamagics being more difficult to learn, and Camouflaging is pretty rare. also, taking overt magical action while you're Camouflaged has the same effect as taking overt physical action when you're hiding.

toturi is correct. concealment does not just hide from sight--it hides from all physical senses. thermosense is a physical sense, ergo concealment works against it. hell, theoretically, you could use high enough Concealment to ensure someone doesn't notice you punching them in the face. they'd feel the damage, but not the impact. (houserule i'd use: the TN to detect the actual punch is reduced by 2x the power of the attack, so it'd have to be some really high concealment (or a really wussy character) to work.)
DocMortand
Mrr....Suddenly I get the feeling that my group is going to walk around 24/7 with a Force 9 spirit concealing them whereever they go.

The only way I can think of to negate that advantage is to have more magical threats - which doesn't make too much sense in that it's supposed to only be a fraction of the population to be magically active...and I really don't want to go there.

So how does a GM balance this sort of thing? Frankly, it's stupid to restrict it - and now that I see that I was doing it wrong I am worried that it will make missions all the more harder to plan so that things aren't walk overs.

Any suggestions? (Lina, you can chime in too if you wish, although I have a feeling you probably won't. smile.gif )
hahnsoo
Both Critters and the BBB say the same thing as far as Concealment:
QUOTE
The Concealment power refers to a being’s ability to hide within its own terrain and is often associated with nature spirits. A being can use the Concealment power to hide itself or others from danger, or, alternatively, can use the power to hide something being sought. For any Perception Tests made to locate the concealed target, add the being’s Essence to the target number for the test. Concealment can be used on more than one target simultaneously; concealed targets can see each other.


Paranormal Animals of Europe says the following, however:
QUOTE
The Concealment power allows a creature to hide within its terrain rather than becoming invisible.  A creature may use concealment to hide itself, its summoner (in the case of a nature spirit), and any companions from danger.  It may also hide objects from curious searchers.  Unlike invisibility, concealment allows fellow beings protected by the power to detect each other normally (for example, a concealed summoner can see the spirit protecting him).  For beings attempting to see the concealed creature(s) or object(s), add the creature's Essence Rating to the target number for any Perception Tests the gamemaster allows.  Thus, if the gamemaster determines that the Perception Test to perceive the hiding creature has a target number of 5, use of the concealment power increases the target number to (5 + [creature's Essence]).


The two examples essentially say the same thing. However, the Paranormal Animals of Europe makes the distinction that it is definitely NOT invisibility. One can take this to mean that the Concealment power really is more like finding a good hiding place than the "Predator" cloak/ruthenium polymer effect.

While my gaming group has been playing Concealment as a sort of "uber invisibility spell", I think as written, it can only apply while stationary or moving at a slow rate within cover. Something to bring up at the next game, I guess.

The BBB does have a reference somewhere when talking about Sustained Critter powers that Concealment can hide a "vanload of runners", but it did not say whether or not the vanload of runners was stationary or moving.
LinaInverse
QUOTE (DocMortand)
Mrr....Suddenly I get the feeling that my group is going to walk around 24/7 with a Force 9 spirit concealing them whereever they go.

The only way I can think of to negate that advantage is to have more magical threats - which doesn't make too much sense in that it's supposed to only be a fraction of the population to be magically active...and I really don't want to go there.

So how does a GM balance this sort of thing?  Frankly, it's stupid to restrict it - and now that I see that I was doing it wrong I am worried that it will make missions all the more harder to plan so that things aren't walk overs.

Any suggestions?  (Lina, you can chime in too if you wish, although I have a feeling you probably won't. smile.gif )

The way you roll Doc, I wouldn't worry about it. Your important NPCs always roll double-digits when they have to. Though then again, if you're using that new Shadowrun screen, they may have problems, given how they define how successful 1 success measures out to...biggrin.gif

Some obvious ones; no one can conjure a Force 9 w/o substantial drain risk (usually, I spend a couple Karma getting it down as much as I do and even then, I still take a hit). Two, even if the party is hard to see, if the enemies know there's something there by peripheral evidence (opening doors, broken glass, etc), then grenades and suppressive fire are your friends in that you don't need to worry about precise targetting.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (LinaInverse)
then grenades and suppressive fire are your friends in that you don't need to worry about precise targetting.

A quote from our group: "Grenades don't care about the Blind Fire modifier." *grin*
hahnsoo
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
So is there any way to hide astrally (other than aura masking or just plain stealth)?
I remember from the dragon heart trilogy (I know some of you hate it, jsut referencing) that the spirit Lethe COULD hide them astrally as well, I assume with concealment.
I ask because I have a PC in my game with a Ruthenium Polymer stealth suit (similar to the Tir Ghosts) that also has some thermal dampening. He's also a silent way adept, so he's damn near impossible to spot. until the NPC mage astrally perceives and goes "There!"

Any ideas?

The rule of astral stealth is pretty simple: Hide in an area with lots of biomatter. A dense forest, a crowd of people, a school of fish, even a plain shubbery. There is no such thing as Astral Camouflage, but I'd argue that Stealth still would be a factor if you had sufficient living cover to hide behind.

One way to make the above metamagic balanced is to only allow the hiding character to conceal his/her aura if there is a large amount of living matter to hide around. You still wouldn't be able to hide in plain sight a la "the Predator" or use this ability when not near living things (although biofiber in corporate building walls is becoming increasingly common), but it wouldn't be as ridiculously powerful. You can also add the proviso that one has to have learned Masking and perhaps one other metamagic before he/she can learn this technique (just like Filtering has the Cleansing prereq).
fistandantilus4.0
I like the idea of requiring different metamagic requirements. Kind of like a weapon focus. It's 'balanced' by the karma cost. Personally, I don't think paying 40 or so karma balances against 4 extra dice in the long run. Especially if you make it your self and pay 9.
But anyways, I like requiring masking, that definitely seems the way to go. I don't know about filtering. That seems more of a connection to the spell matrix of ED. I was thinking more like requiring masking, and sensing from T:AL. Kind of feeling the ebb and flow of mana in the area, and synching with it. That way, the metamagic camo requires 3 grades of initiation, which is a pretty serious investment of karma (and passing up some other choice metamagic) in order to be able to 'hide' astrally.3 grades, is ,what, bare minimum 30 GK, with groups and ordeals at each.
Lantzer
We look at Concealment as a perception thing. You aren't being phycially hidden, just not percieved.

We once had a Troll PC who had trouble finding a house that had been concealed by a powerful spirit. He'd walk to the house on the right, look at the house number, walk to the house on the left, look at the house number, check the rest of the houses on the block, swear for a bit, and call in saying that there _was_ no such place. The house existed in a 'blind spot'.

The rest of the team was inside laughing their asses off, because they made their rolls.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Personally, I don't think paying 40 or so karma balances against 4 extra dice in the long run. Especially if you make it your self and pay 9.

How is the Karma Cost of 9 possible? Remember, the benefits of orichalcum, radicals, and virgin materials for First Bonding only directly subtract Karma now, instead of lowering the Karma Cost multiplier. I suppose if you had only a Force 2 weapon focus (which would be 16 First Bonding cost) and really stacked on the orichalcum and radicals...

On another note, a Reach 2 Weapon Focus that was bought with 40 Karma would be Force 8 (it's Force times (3 + reach)). Yowza! If it was Reach 1, it would be Force 10!
elbows
I try to "explain" concealment with some mechanism that fits with the type of spirit and the situation. For example, a sea spirit might provide concealment by summoning a fog. A hearth spirit might cause lights to dim subtly, or maybe guards just don't look in a particular direction.

As far as the game effects/balance, concealment is really powerful when combined with stealth -- even a wimpy Force 4 spirit makes stealthy characters almost undetectable (barring astral security).
On the other hand, if they try to use it to walk around in plain sight, just start stacking on the TN mods. I'd say seeing someone in plain sight is TN 2 (since normally no roll is needed). If they open a door or make noise, that will draw more attention and bring it even lower, so they'll need a big spirit to go undetected.
Tarantula
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jan 27 2005, 10:54 AM)
Small note, thermosense organs wouldn't get affected by it the same as they aren't affected by the improved invis spell.

Against concealment? All physical manner of detection suffers, not just visual. You do not see, you do not hear, you do not do thermosense. The only physical sense (as opposed to astral perception/projection) that totally bypasses the need to make Perception checks is from those Detect spells.

So, the next thing to do, is make a rocker who conjures up people to conceal him, so that way he can blast his music for practice and not get the star called on him all the time. Sound is a physical means of detection. Hrmmm, would it also remove the thumps from bass that vibrate matter? From anything around? That'd be mighty impressive.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Tarantula)
So, the next thing to do, is make a rocker who conjures up people to conceal him, so that way he can blast his music for practice and not get the star called on him all the time. Sound is a physical means of detection. Hrmmm, would it also remove the thumps from bass that vibrate matter? From anything around? That'd be mighty impressive.

It does sound a bit farfetched. But I'd say the TN to detect a rocker jamming on his synth is a 2 (or lower, if you wanted to calculate it before Concealment modifiers), making it rather easy to detect unless you had a really big hoop spirit Concealing you. Or maybe it would simply sound like the neighbors nearby are having some really loud sex.
Tarantula
Well it also said physical. What if they found a ditch, and are hiding it in, then I fall in? Touch is a physical sense, do I not feel them? Or see them? So I just think I'm floating X feet in the air when really I'm sitting on the trolls head?
Demosthenes
Maybe you think you're sitting on a big boulder, instead of on top of a big troll?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Demosthenes)
Maybe you think you're sitting on a big boulder, instead of on top of a big troll?

Or, if Concealment was working properly and the Spirit was doing its job, you wouldn't even think about going near that ditch. A variety of factors, such as the Spirit moving garbage in front of the ditch to manipulating your mind to keep you from coming near, would influence you from detecting the Concealed troll. This is not much more mind-bending than the Confusion power or Accident power.
Tarantula
Sure, I'm not, say I slip and fall, complete accident, not intentional. What if I thought it'd be fun to try and make a basket, by throwing the nearby toaster in the ditch? Would I hear it clang because it hit the troll? Or would its clang be silenced (cause the troll made it by being in the path of the toaster) causing me to go "huh?" and want to find out why it was quiet.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Sure, I'm not, say I slip and fall, complete accident, not intentional. What if I thought it'd be fun to try and make a basket, by throwing the nearby toaster in the ditch? Would I hear it clang because it hit the troll? Or would its clang be silenced (cause the troll made it by being in the path of the toaster) causing me to go "huh?" and want to find out why it was quiet.

The cardboard slat deftly placed on top of the ditch by the spirit beforehand prevents you from doing something like that. Along with the subtle mind-control influence from the spirit that makes you throw the toaster into a different ditch.

I know that it is real easy to come up with exacting situations that may break an explicit use of the power. But it is equally easy for a GM to come up with a way that the spirit can still exercise the power in the face of such situations. In the end, you play by what the GM says and what the rules dictate. The question with Concealment is not a simple matter of trolls and ditches, but exactly how extensive the power acts within any given domain, and how much magic is involved.

After discussion with my gaming group this past day, we have mutually decided that Concealment represents both a limited form of mind control and the ability to hide stationary in an appropriate section of terrain. Limited movement is allowed between contiguous sections of cover (like moving from tree to tree, or crawling in the bushes). These are the rules that we've decided to go by, and YMMV.
Demosthenes
It probably wouldn't matter if it 'clanged' or not - if the concealment power affected you, you wouldn't notice anything out of the ordinary. Unless, of course, you made a habit of throwing toasters at that exact spot in the ditch every day, and knew exactly what it sounded like.

And why would the toaster 'clang' when it landed in the ditch? Couldn't it just make a #thud# like most things do (even when they land on trolls)?

You'd still (IMG) get a chance to roll a perception test if the toaster landed on the Troll (to hear the troll go "ow...." or whatever)...but the spirit's force would be added to the TN, because that's what concealment does.

Does that help?
mfb
okay, say you've got a force 9 spirit concealing a rocker wailing on his guitar, which we will assume is hooked into an amp so you can actually hear him. he's performing a vey obvious action (-4) and he's probably at least as loud as a three-round burst (-4). the TN to spot this guy is going to be, maximum, 2.
fistandantilus4.0
[How is the Karma Cost of 9 possible? Remember, the benefits of orichalcum, radicals, and virgin materials for First Bonding only directly subtract Karma now, instead of lowering the Karma Cost multiplier. I suppose if you had only a Force 2 weapon focus (which would be 16 First Bonding cost) and really stacked on the orichalcum and radicals]


Basically yes. If you're going to take the time to enchant a powerful foci, you might as well take the time to put that enchanting skill to good use and just make a ton of orichalcum and save your self some karma. Unless you're using the cash for karma rule, which, after using it for a little while, I REALLY jacked the price up on.
Tarantula
QUOTE (mfb)
okay, say you've got a force 9 spirit concealing a rocker wailing on his guitar, which we will assume is hooked into an amp so you can actually hear him. he's performing a vey obvious action (-4) and he's probably at least as loud as a three-round burst (-4). the TN to spot this guy is going to be, maximum, 2.

Not spot him, hear him. So it isn't obvious, because you're not watching it. Just the -4, putting him at a 7 to hear. (2base + 9conceal -4loud).
hahnsoo
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Basically yes. If you're going to take the time to enchant a powerful foci, you might as well take the time to put that enchanting skill to good use and just make a ton of orichalcum and save your self some karma. Unless you're using the cash for karma rule, which, after using it for a little while, I REALLY jacked the price up on.

If a character made THAT much orichalcum, he/she should just retire. Really. Just sell off that orichalcum.

Eventually, you are going to get to the point that the orichalcum is actually going to be worth more for selling and subsequently BUYING a weapon focus (which would automatically have a less Karma cost to bond than the First Bonding cost) than to reduce the Karma by a measly point.

Example: Let's say you have a Force 4 Reach 0 Weapon Focus dagger. First Bonding cost, with Virgin Telesma and Three Radicals, would be 26. The same weapon focus costs 12 Karma to bond normally. That means you would need 14 units of orichalcum to get the brand new focus to match a focus already through First Bonding. 14 units of Orichalcum is worth 1,232,000 nuyen. Let's assume you had a crummy day at the Orichalcum market and only got 30% for selling it, or roughly 400,000 nuyen... for 360,000 nuyen, you can buy yourself that Force 4 weapon focus. Or put that money toward your character's retirement fund.

This is the relatively equitable example. It gets even more absurd at Force higher than 4, but gets more reasonable at the lower end.
fistandantilus4.0
That's an issue that comes up with any magical character . They all have the option of just settling down with the enchanting skill and selling orichalcum and foci. That's been gone over already in another thread. It all comes down to why the mage runs in the first place.
I'm just pointing out that if you put the time and energy into it, you can get a really powerful focus dirt cheap karma wise. It would take at LEAST a few months, which is really very conducive to a running "career".

Back to the concealment though, the power could just be a 'dampening'. Pull in the shadows, a bit of camo, dampen the sound and heat signature. It's not invisibility, because they can still be spotted. It just increases the target number. They're harder to spot, not impossible.
mfb
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Not spot him, hear him.

in SR, you don't roll Perception seperately for listening and looking. you roll a single perception test that takes into account all relevant modifiers--sight, sound, smell, whatever. a select few senses, like thermosense, get a seperate roll; other than that, you just lump everything in together and come up with a single TN. so the TN to notice a rocker wailing on his guitar while concealed by a force 9 spirit would be ~2.
Crimson Jack
We have a house rule for separate Perception Tests as it makes way more sense that way than lumping everything together into one big category. Although, by the rules, you would technically be able to get a fix on his exact location via the method mfb and the book describes. Its a bit silly when it comes to LOS issues, but that's the way the rules are at times.
mfb
when it comes to noticing that something is happening, i think it makes more sense to use the existing rules. if person A is jumping up and down, person B is screaming, and person C is jumping up and down and screaming, i think person C should be easier to notice.
Crimson Jack
Eh, I understand your point, however let me put it this way. Once, my group was in a sewer system when their source of light was knocked out. At that point, there was zero light.. zilch. A shambler was down there as well. Now, rather than apply a stiff visual modifier, I let them make a hearing perception test as the light modifier would have nothing to do with whether or not they could sense where and possibly what the critter was audibly. It doesn't always make sense to jumble the two perception mods together is my point.

When it does, as in your example, then one perception test is used. Besides, its just a house rule and all seven of us like it. smile.gif
DocMortand
*nod* I only apply the vision mods when they have to see to fire at it. Most of the non-critical perceptions use all the senses and I use arbitrary numbers based on how faint the sound is, plus all other senses.

Remember tho, that if you're in the sewer, most of your normal senses will be useless - vision because of darkness (or restricted due to a flashlight - the bright light causes things outside the beam to seem even darker), smell because it's a sewer, touch is only useful when you want to grapple, and taste...ew. Hearing would be the primary mode of telling whether something is nearby or not. It's always imperative to know what is around you that might be distracting the PCs...and modify perception accordingly.
mfb
possibly. i dunno. i'd have probably applied all of the modifiers. what's the fun in hiding in the pitch black if you can't sneak up on people?
Crimson Jack
There were modifiers for the sounds of the water, but if I went by the book, I should have imposed the following:

+2 Perceiver distracted
+8 Full darkness
+2 Water noises (current and drips)
+2 Odor (sewer)

Tack that on to the base TN 4 and that would have been TN 18. I dare say that I'd be able to hear a big lumbering monstrosity approaching me in a bi-directional sewer pipe closer to a TN 8 (Distracted and Water noise) than TN 18.
DocMortand
After a while in any stench filled area you'll notice your nose gets "used" to it...i.e. your sense of smell either shuts off or filters it out. I wouldn't have applied the odor modifier unless they had just entered the sewers...

And I agree about the full darkness not applying. But then again, knowing something is there and being able to do something about it are two different things.
Crimson Jack
I didn't. I applied a +2 Noise modifier and a +2 Perceiver Distracted modifier, as they were fumbling around in the dark. TN 8.

edit: what I was trying to say was that if I went strictly by the book, the team would have had an impossible TN 18 just to notice the shambler coming down the sewer pipes at them. As it was, the TN was an easier 8 to *hear* it only.
mfb
isn't the shambler a walking pile of trash and corpses? if so, the -4 for 'odor obvious' might have been appropriate. unless they were all specifically focused on something besides trying to make their way through the sewers, i'm not sure i'd have applied the +2 for 'perceiver is distracted'--"fumbling around in the dark" is what the full darkness mod is there for; applying a second mod for the same situation isn't quite fair. you can also give a situational mod for how loud the shambler is; the listed modifiers are guidelines, not the end-all-be-all. if the shambler wasn't making any attempt to move quietly, i'd have applied a -2 on the assumption that sloshing through knee-deep water is about as loud as suppressed autofire (the -2 listed for single gunshot is completely ridiculous, so i'm using my GM judgement to ignore it).

that brings the TN down to, what, 10? pretty tough--but even a stinking pile of dead bodies splashing its way towards you should be difficult to make out in a loud, pitch-black, smelly sewer.

that said, i tenatively agree that there are some situations where it makes sense to split the perception roll. i just don't think it necessarily makes sense as the default rule.
Crimson Jack
I think it makes sense to just think about the situation and come up with a test that makes sense though. Regardless of how you or anyone else ruled what the exact modifier should be, the point being that its much less than the full 18 if all of the mods are applied. In any event, I agree with you for the most part. There are times however, when a separate test makes things a bit more plausible.
The White Dwarf
Didnt bother reading the second half of the thread; just wanted to throw this out there pertaining to the first half.

Wanted to add that one way to partially check high powered concealment is to have a penalty to astral vision based on a great amount of magic standing out. Basically, what this means is that a high force spirit is easier to notice than a low force one, against the background of the astral plane.

Survival of the Fittest (I think it was) had a similar setup with a table of modifiers to spot PCs using such methods. What it boiled down to was a really giant spirit adding concealment was great vs physical stuff, but against astral stuff it was less effective (on the order of like +5 for the power, but -2 from the force, so it was still a bonus just lesser).

So I dunno if it counts as canon or not, but its one idea they published that sorta works along those lines, if you feel its getting out of hand.
Tarantula
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Not spot him, hear him.

in SR, you don't roll Perception seperately for listening and looking. you roll a single perception test that takes into account all relevant modifiers--sight, sound, smell, whatever. a select few senses, like thermosense, get a seperate roll; other than that, you just lump everything in together and come up with a single TN. so the TN to notice a rocker wailing on his guitar while concealed by a force 9 spirit would be ~2.

I said in the house nextdoor, +8 blind fire. Now its 4 base, + 8 blind, + 9 concealment, -4obvious, -4loud = 13 to hear him. Hows that for stacking modifiers?
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