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> Trap Mechanisms, Grimtooth was an evil evil person...
DocMortand
post Feb 7 2005, 08:18 AM
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Okay, I'm curious where I can find out the basic mechanism for traps. That I think may be in BBB, but I'm not sure. I.E. What TNs are usual for traps for people to see them to avoid? I know I saw security systems...but I'm not a truly nasty GM - I like to always give the PCs a fighting chance. Not much, mind you...but there's always a way or two to escape the trap/ambush.

However, I'm sure some of you have read "Grimtooth's 101 Traps" or it's many sequels...has anyone used one of those traps in their campaign, and if so, what mechanism did you use? (I.E. what TN perception, or knowledge, etc. to see/disarm/avoid the trap) I know one trap in particular which I plan on using involves elevator shafts...but I need to know how to work them so I can give my runners a chance to avoid certain doom (or at least mysterious cyberware! :vegm:)

Any suggestions/places to look would be appreciated, and stories of traps used against runners might be fun. Thanks!
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Nikoli
post Feb 7 2005, 02:52 PM
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Sadly, most fantasy setting traps are just not realistic in a setting like SR.
I just can't conceive of a good business justification for an oversized chipper shredder.

That eing said, I have put in "Mad Scientist" type traps when the situation called for it. If someone has lost it, there's no reason why the only elevator down can't fill up with a very strong acid and eat everything but an intuder's 'ware.
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Weredigo
post Feb 7 2005, 08:31 PM
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Ah, Grimtooth, yes a truly Evil, Nasty, Disreputable character who is the good freind of all GM's everywhere, and truly feared by many Players. Many a player Character are in the land of death of thier choice due to him.
His Traps , and you traps, should have three qualities, wether they are found in a corp research facility, or in the Matrix. They should have a good logical way to "disarm", They should prove extremely Lethal to those lacking common sense, and they should be Undetectable, until at least one character is well within it's clutches.
Traps should not be used to kill all characters.
Traps should be used to kill the stupid, inattentive, annoying, and parasitical ones
And when it comes to Deckers, I don't use the ICE that is described in the Books. Oh no, that's too comicbook like, instead I use Dungeon Traps.
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LinaInverse
post Feb 8 2005, 01:31 AM
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Full disclosure: I'm one of DocMortand's players.

I don't think a lot of Grimtooth's traps are practical for most urban Shadowrun scenarios.

1) Most of those involve vast, elaborate construction. In a downtown city, space is expensive and Corporations are nothing if not fiscally responsible. What could justify the cost to build some 200 meter concrete dome, with multiple 10 meter high spinning blades (or whatever) when a 5 foot elevator with 2 hidden submachine guns does the job for a hundredth of the cost?

2) Most of them are built for the purpose of preventing anyone from venturing in the defended area (ie, Tomb of Horrors). That's not practical for a place of work where people are present for legit reasons (ie, a MegaCorp office/lab). Anyone here who works in an office in RL that relies on even a modicum of security (ie, entry cards) knows that a security system must allow for the human factor (ie, people who forget their cards, gain/lose weight (which throws off a Mantrap booth)). If you don't allow for some margin of error (which most of the Grimtooth traps don't), you'll have dead employees (or Heaven forefend, dead executives) almost every morning.

My opinion on modern traps: Perception rolls to see hidden panels, pressure pads, motion sensors, etc. How high depends on how much money was spent, but I would cap it at 10 for the purpose of precedent; Car alarms, ECM, ECCM, Encryption systems, Surveillance/Counter-Surveillance systems and a lot of other similar systems all cap out at rating 10 for purchase purposes.

Bypassing: If detected, bypassing would use a combination of Physical (Athletics to jump a pit), Electronics B/R (hot-wiring a security panel a la Han Solo in RotJ) or other applicable skill. A good TN would be the same as the one used for Perception (ie, reflecting an equivalent overall quality of construction).
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tisoz
post Feb 8 2005, 02:28 AM
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Put a beartrap under the window the burglar uses, or rig a wire to a doorhandle and a shotgun trigger. Either one will get you arrested today. In the future, extraterritioriality will help, but how much?
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kevyn668
post Feb 8 2005, 02:34 AM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Feb 7 2005, 09:28 PM)
Put a beartrap under the window the burglar uses, or rig a wire to a doorhandle and a shotgun trigger.  Either one will get you arrested today.  In the future, extraterritioriality will help, but how much?

Probably lots. They can write thier own rules. :)

It may not be kosher for a shop owner in the Arc (pre Shut-down ;)) to slap a bear trap in front of the window but not so much for the "Uber Secret R&D Labs."

So, I must've missed Grim's list but I've seen it referenced on numerous threads today. What gives?

This post has been edited by kevyn668: Feb 8 2005, 02:36 AM
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Fortune
post Feb 8 2005, 02:48 AM
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Technically, "Uber Secret R&D Labs" would not be extra-territorial unless clearly marked as being the property of a qualifying Corp.
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DrJest
post Feb 8 2005, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE
So, I must've missed Grim's list but I've seen it referenced on numerous threads today. What gives?


You've missed a treat :) Grimtooth's Traps (1 through 4, I think) were collections of the most evil, twisted, often convoluted, frequently hysterical and largely deadly traps ever implanted into a fantasy dungeon crawl by a sadistic GM. They were a byword for devious and lethal ingenuity.

A quick trawl of Google, btw, reveals that there's a reissue of the Grimtooth's stuff coming. So now a whole new generation of roleplayers can be fried/impaled/dissolved/squished in interesting and creative ways :rotfl:
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Fix-it
post Feb 8 2005, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE
Technically, "Uber Secret R&D Labs" would not be extra-territorial unless clearly marked as being the property of a qualifying Corp.


Of course, being uber secret, they probably wouldn't be marked at ALL.. now would they?

EDIT: and another issue of Grim's traps???

Yesss!!!
Greased ball bearings galore!
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Fortune
post Feb 8 2005, 03:01 AM
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Then they wouldn't be extra-territorial at all.
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DrJest
post Feb 8 2005, 03:16 AM
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Bouncing an odd idea here... if a couple of kids stumble into an Uber Secret R&D lab and get badly wounded or even killed by the Automated Turrets O' Doom, can the corp be sued for culpable manslaughter or some such if extra-territoriality doesn't apply because, as Fortune said, it's not clearly marked?
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mfb
post Feb 8 2005, 03:17 AM
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yes, indeed, they can.
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DrJest
post Feb 8 2005, 03:21 AM
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There's a whole slew of run opps there, isn't there..? Just imagine Joe and Jane Doe sueing Ares or Aztech or someone for culpable manslaughter. I SO have to use that somewhere.
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Fortune
post Feb 8 2005, 03:23 AM
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That's why Stuffer Shacks are not defended with Miniguns. Aztechnology does not fullfil the requirements for extra-territoriality when it comes to that subsidiary.
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Sandoval Smith
post Feb 8 2005, 03:26 AM
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Then again, you'd expect that if they go through all the trouble of building the Uber Secret Lab, then then it would also be disguised well enough, have thick enough defences, whatever, to keep pesky kids well enough out that they don't go setting off turrets o doom.
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DrJest
post Feb 8 2005, 03:29 AM
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Chaos theory :) "Nature will find a way".

Actually, I have a run idea brewing on this subject. Dunno where it will go, but if it turns out to be moderately coherent (yeah, right) I'll chuck it on the boards for people to expand/alter/shoot down in flames.
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SirKodiak
post Feb 8 2005, 03:50 AM
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Ugh, Grimtooth's traps can be a funny read, but I've never found them to be practical game. Too many of them are just an excuse for the GM to kill the players, which can more easily be done by simply saying an elder dragon/god/blackhole shows up and kills you instantly. Most of the rest depend on such a complex construction that no sane person would actually build them.

As for Shadowrunners who get themselves killed on a run, I'm pretty sure the corp isn't exactly going to be turning the bodies over to the authorities.
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DocMortand
post Feb 8 2005, 05:09 AM
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Actually, really the only time/place that Grimtooth's traps might conceivably be used is during the Arc Shutdown. Remember, Deus loved traps and remade entire levels to suit his whimsy - including all those labyrinths. Some of those 3-4 skull traps would work great in the Labyrinths.

I would never use one of Grim's traps outside of that timeframe, tho...as y'all said, they don't make sense for corps to have. Even David Koresh-style bunk houses wouldn't have them (well, maybe the annoying slow-down ones, but not the lethal ones I would think)

Of course, the way Lina's fortifying Angel's "farm" I wouldn't be surprised (and would be happy to help design) traps to squish helpless NPCs. Of course, It may be even better to Have Lina GM a game where I have said "The Mafia's coming - you get to GM the traps and defenses, the rest of the group has to kill you."

Of course, that may just be evil...:vegm:

But back to my secondary thought - what traps have you GMs set for your players in the past, and what were the game mechanics for them?
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Edward
post Feb 8 2005, 09:01 AM
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I would tend to put ultra secret R&D within the borders of an official facility, EG aztechnology owns a farm, they bring in some equipment (or mojo) and dig out a large underground bunker in witch they do research into something secret. Now they have almost all the deniability (they can still say the entire project was unauthorised) all the secrecy (until somebody cracks the place nobody will be poaching there development ideas) and the defence of clearly marked extraterritoriality when they blow away interlopers. With ingeniously designed traps.

For SR I would prefer human in the loop or semi inelegant traps. Eg you enter the elifator the doors close you are asked to confirm your identity, you fail, you notice a hissing sound and a slight chemical odder, you wake up strapped to a bed and feeling a bit groggy a middle aged man with a red robe and an Aztec amulet is looking at you. Remember that section in SRComp (I think) reasons why there not going to kill you, well they want to know why you came, then if your very lucky they wont use you as a magical component.

Edward
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DrJest
post Feb 8 2005, 12:14 PM
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I just remembered a really good source for this kind of thing in a piece of fiction. Anyone ever read "Oath of Fealty" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle? It concerns an arcology, and it's more about the impact the arcology has on the surrounding city. But there are two occasions where organised groups of people try to break in to the arcology bent on random destruction. Someone is killed in the first one, which is proved to be basically college students trying to be clever and not really carrying explosives at all - the subsequent court case is quite interesting. And the second time, against a professional "runner" team, the arc's designer has set up loads of defensive mechanisms that he runs against them. Well worth reading for a large number of reasons.
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LinaInverse
post Feb 8 2005, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (DocMortand)
Of course, the way Lina's fortifying Angel's "farm" I wouldn't be surprised (and would be happy to help design) traps to squish helpless NPCs.  Of course, It may be even better to Have Lina GM a game where I have said "The Mafia's coming - you get to GM the traps and defenses, the rest of the group has to kill you."

Of course, that may just be evil...:vegm:

But back to my secondary thought - what traps have you GMs set for your players in the past, and what were the game mechanics for them?

One of the things I was considering doing for the farm (in addition to mines, razor wire and gun turrets) was spike pits. Fairly simple and easy; hardly in the league of Grimtooth, but still usually effective (and easily set up with the help of Elementals/Spirits). The farm's layout though having no trees (to give the guns an open field of fire) precludes a lot of the more elaborate traps (ie, Vietcong-style traps).

Whether you wanted me to GM a session for that raid is up to you; we'd need to come up with a layout for the farm before that, so I can have the defenses set up before that scenario executes. That would have to be done first, so I wouldn't be using any undue knowledge or influence of the opposition.
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mmu1
post Feb 8 2005, 03:30 PM
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QUOTE (SirKodiak)
Ugh, Grimtooth's traps can be a funny read, but I've never found them to be practical game. Too many of them are just an excuse for the GM to kill the players, which can more easily be done by simply saying an elder dragon/god/blackhole shows up and kills you instantly. Most of the rest depend on such a complex construction that no sane person would actually build them.

As for Shadowrunners who get themselves killed on a run, I'm pretty sure the corp isn't exactly going to be turning the bodies over to the authorities.

Thank you... Grimtooth's traps are not only worthless (aside from the entertainment value) in a SR campaign, but in D&D one as well.

They're cartoonish, and not meant first and foremost to provide security but to kill PCs - the whole idea behind them is metagame.

On top of it, because of the complexity and size of the machinery involved, they'd actually be pretty easy to detect for a competent team, (astral perception... drones... hell, ultrasound and a stud finder), and then of course there's the problem of getting someone with a Reaction of 10 or more to reliably fall into one...
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Nikoli
post Feb 8 2005, 03:35 PM
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That's what the battalion of Steel lynxs moving at a high rate of speed down the hallway are for. Which would a team choose? Moving carfully along a potentially trapped corridor while heavily armed and armored drones of death are moving towards them at around 60 KPH, or would they simply leave a few grenades on a timer and run like a great form dragon was after them?
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Weredigo
post Feb 9 2005, 05:18 AM
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Trap Idea, Use what game mechanics you want... and it can also work via Quickened Spells or Mechanics however you want.

The Room is Circular, and a good 8 feet from floor to ceiling, in the floor and the cieling can be seen little holes, bout as round as a soda can and 6 inches or so deep. The room is about 25 feet in Diameter.
In the center of the room is a shallow pool of water, and in the middle of the pool stands a statue of a scantily robed woman, one hand clutched at her heart, the other beckoning to the characters entering the room. Water drips slowly and constantly from her eyes. If a character grows a brain and wipes her eyes dry the door behind her opens to lead deeper into the ____ .
However a Willpower check must be made. Dangling from the hand that beckons is a Bracelet of fine quality and stratospherical resale value. However if anyone attempts to Take Bracelet the trap is sprung. Whomsoever attempt to take bracelet will actually be grabbed and held tight by the statue, while the room begins to move in a spinning fashion (statue as center) Untill the Floor/Ceiling become the Walls, and the Walls the floor, welcome to what is known as G Force. the only way now to disarm the trap by wiping away the maidens tears is by Climbing through the use of the holes in the floor, unfortunately climbing the cieling won't get you there, but it's better then staying on the wall. when the room is moving nice and good the statue will let go of the hapless fool who submitted to greed and anyone unlucky enough to be directly under him/her is bound to be clobbered. However the woes of the characters have just begun. The door to the Right or Left of the maiden opens just long enough for a sperical boulder 7feet 11inches huge. Those standing on the Floor/Wall, will be struck EVERY SINGLE TURN, Those who are climbing are relatively safe but must make a strength check or fall, if they fall they have no time to try to climb again until after they've been hit by the boulder. So somebody has to climbe the holes on the floor to the statue (not the cieling), Climb the Statue, which is slick with water, and Wipe away the tears. While everyone else attempts to avoid, or recieves, a rather painfull pasting. I have turned many a player into Paste with this one and do love the look on thier faces when I explain how to disarm the trap and open the exit door.
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Fresno Bob
post Feb 9 2005, 05:53 AM
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Yeah, that believably fits into SR...
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