Okay, I'm curious where I can find out the basic mechanism for traps. That I think may be in BBB, but I'm not sure. I.E. What TNs are usual for traps for people to see them to avoid? I know I saw security systems...but I'm not a truly nasty GM - I like to always give the PCs a fighting chance. Not much, mind you...but there's always a way or two to escape the trap/ambush.

However, I'm sure some of you have read "Grimtooth's 101 Traps" or it's many sequels...has anyone used one of those traps in their campaign, and if so, what mechanism did you use? (I.E. what TN perception, or knowledge, etc. to see/disarm/avoid the trap) I know one trap in particular which I plan on using involves elevator shafts...but I need to know how to work them so I can give my runners a chance to avoid certain doom (or at least mysterious cyberware! )

Any suggestions/places to look would be appreciated, and stories of traps used against runners might be fun. Thanks!

Sadly, most fantasy setting traps are just not realistic in a setting like SR.
I just can't conceive of a good business justification for an oversized chipper shredder.

That eing said, I have put in "Mad Scientist" type traps when the situation called for it. If someone has lost it, there's no reason why the only elevator down can't fill up with a very strong acid and eat everything but an intuder's 'ware.

Ah, Grimtooth, yes a truly Evil, Nasty, Disreputable character who is the good freind of all GM's everywhere, and truly feared by many Players. Many a player Character are in the land of death of thier choice due to him.
His Traps , and you traps, should have three qualities, wether they are found in a corp research facility, or in the Matrix. They should have a good logical way to "disarm", They should prove extremely Lethal to those lacking common sense, and they should be Undetectable, until at least one character is well within it's clutches.
Traps should not be used to kill all characters.
Traps should be used to kill the stupid, inattentive, annoying, and parasitical ones
And when it comes to Deckers, I don't use the ICE that is described in the Books. Oh no, that's too comicbook like, instead I use Dungeon Traps.

Full disclosure: I'm one of DocMortand's players.

I don't think a lot of Grimtooth's traps are practical for most urban Shadowrun scenarios.

1) Most of those involve vast, elaborate construction. In a downtown city, space is expensive and Corporations are nothing if not fiscally responsible. What could justify the cost to build some 200 meter concrete dome, with multiple 10 meter high spinning blades (or whatever) when a 5 foot elevator with 2 hidden submachine guns does the job for a hundredth of the cost?

2) Most of them are built for the purpose of preventing anyone from venturing in the defended area (ie, Tomb of Horrors). That's not practical for a place of work where people are present for legit reasons (ie, a MegaCorp office/lab). Anyone here who works in an office in RL that relies on even a modicum of security (ie, entry cards) knows that a security system must allow for the human factor (ie, people who forget their cards, gain/lose weight (which throws off a Mantrap booth)). If you don't allow for some margin of error (which most of the Grimtooth traps don't), you'll have dead employees (or Heaven forefend, dead executives) almost every morning.

My opinion on modern traps: Perception rolls to see hidden panels, pressure pads, motion sensors, etc. How high depends on how much money was spent, but I would cap it at 10 for the purpose of precedent; Car alarms, ECM, ECCM, Encryption systems, Surveillance/Counter-Surveillance systems and a lot of other similar systems all cap out at rating 10 for purchase purposes.

Bypassing: If detected, bypassing would use a combination of Physical (Athletics to jump a pit), Electronics B/R (hot-wiring a security panel a la Han Solo in RotJ) or other applicable skill. A good TN would be the same as the one used for Perception (ie, reflecting an equivalent overall quality of construction).

Put a beartrap under the window the burglar uses, or rig a wire to a doorhandle and a shotgun trigger. Either one will get you arrested today. In the future, extraterritioriality will help, but how much?

Technically, "Uber Secret R&D Labs" would not be extra-territorial unless clearly marked as being the property of a qualifying Corp.

Then they wouldn't be extra-territorial at all.

Bouncing an odd idea here... if a couple of kids stumble into an Uber Secret R&D lab and get badly wounded or even killed by the Automated Turrets O' Doom, can the corp be sued for culpable manslaughter or some such if extra-territoriality doesn't apply because, as Fortune said, it's not clearly marked?

yes, indeed, they can.

There's a whole slew of run opps there, isn't there..? Just imagine Joe and Jane Doe sueing Ares or Aztech or someone for culpable manslaughter. I SO have to use that somewhere.

That's why Stuffer Shacks are not defended with Miniguns. Aztechnology does not fullfil the requirements for extra-territoriality when it comes to that subsidiary.

Then again, you'd expect that if they go through all the trouble of building the Uber Secret Lab, then then it would also be disguised well enough, have thick enough defences, whatever, to keep pesky kids well enough out that they don't go setting off turrets o doom.

Chaos theory "Nature will find a way".

Actually, I have a run idea brewing on this subject. Dunno where it will go, but if it turns out to be moderately coherent (yeah, right) I'll chuck it on the boards for people to expand/alter/shoot down in flames.

Ugh, Grimtooth's traps can be a funny read, but I've never found them to be practical game. Too many of them are just an excuse for the GM to kill the players, which can more easily be done by simply saying an elder dragon/god/blackhole shows up and kills you instantly. Most of the rest depend on such a complex construction that no sane person would actually build them.

As for Shadowrunners who get themselves killed on a run, I'm pretty sure the corp isn't exactly going to be turning the bodies over to the authorities.

Actually, really the only time/place that Grimtooth's traps might conceivably be used is during the Arc Shutdown. Remember, Deus loved traps and remade entire levels to suit his whimsy - including all those labyrinths. Some of those 3-4 skull traps would work great in the Labyrinths.

I would never use one of Grim's traps outside of that timeframe, tho...as y'all said, they don't make sense for corps to have. Even David Koresh-style bunk houses wouldn't have them (well, maybe the annoying slow-down ones, but not the lethal ones I would think)

Of course, the way Lina's fortifying Angel's "farm" I wouldn't be surprised (and would be happy to help design) traps to squish helpless NPCs. Of course, It may be even better to Have Lina GM a game where I have said "The Mafia's coming - you get to GM the traps and defenses, the rest of the group has to kill you."

Of course, that may just be evil...

But back to my secondary thought - what traps have you GMs set for your players in the past, and what were the game mechanics for them?

I would tend to put ultra secret R&D within the borders of an official facility, EG aztechnology owns a farm, they bring in some equipment (or mojo) and dig out a large underground bunker in witch they do research into something secret. Now they have almost all the deniability (they can still say the entire project was unauthorised) all the secrecy (until somebody cracks the place nobody will be poaching there development ideas) and the defence of clearly marked extraterritoriality when they blow away interlopers. With ingeniously designed traps.

For SR I would prefer human in the loop or semi inelegant traps. Eg you enter the elifator the doors close you are asked to confirm your identity, you fail, you notice a hissing sound and a slight chemical odder, you wake up strapped to a bed and feeling a bit groggy a middle aged man with a red robe and an Aztec amulet is looking at you. Remember that section in SRComp (I think) reasons why there not going to kill you, well they want to know why you came, then if your very lucky they wont use you as a magical component.

Edward

I just remembered a really good source for this kind of thing in a piece of fiction. Anyone ever read "Oath of Fealty" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle? It concerns an arcology, and it's more about the impact the arcology has on the surrounding city. But there are two occasions where organised groups of people try to break in to the arcology bent on random destruction. Someone is killed in the first one, which is proved to be basically college students trying to be clever and not really carrying explosives at all - the subsequent court case is quite interesting. And the second time, against a professional "runner" team, the arc's designer has set up loads of defensive mechanisms that he runs against them. Well worth reading for a large number of reasons.

That's what the battalion of Steel lynxs moving at a high rate of speed down the hallway are for. Which would a team choose? Moving carfully along a potentially trapped corridor while heavily armed and armored drones of death are moving towards them at around 60 KPH, or would they simply leave a few grenades on a timer and run like a great form dragon was after them?

Trap Idea, Use what game mechanics you want... and it can also work via Quickened Spells or Mechanics however you want.

The Room is Circular, and a good 8 feet from floor to ceiling, in the floor and the cieling can be seen little holes, bout as round as a soda can and 6 inches or so deep. The room is about 25 feet in Diameter.
In the center of the room is a shallow pool of water, and in the middle of the pool stands a statue of a scantily robed woman, one hand clutched at her heart, the other beckoning to the characters entering the room. Water drips slowly and constantly from her eyes. If a character grows a brain and wipes her eyes dry the door behind her opens to lead deeper into the ____ .
However a Willpower check must be made. Dangling from the hand that beckons is a Bracelet of fine quality and stratospherical resale value. However if anyone attempts to Take Bracelet the trap is sprung. Whomsoever attempt to take bracelet will actually be grabbed and held tight by the statue, while the room begins to move in a spinning fashion (statue as center) Untill the Floor/Ceiling become the Walls, and the Walls the floor, welcome to what is known as G Force. the only way now to disarm the trap by wiping away the maidens tears is by Climbing through the use of the holes in the floor, unfortunately climbing the cieling won't get you there, but it's better then staying on the wall. when the room is moving nice and good the statue will let go of the hapless fool who submitted to greed and anyone unlucky enough to be directly under him/her is bound to be clobbered. However the woes of the characters have just begun. The door to the Right or Left of the maiden opens just long enough for a sperical boulder 7feet 11inches huge. Those standing on the Floor/Wall, will be struck EVERY SINGLE TURN, Those who are climbing are relatively safe but must make a strength check or fall, if they fall they have no time to try to climb again until after they've been hit by the boulder. So somebody has to climbe the holes on the floor to the statue (not the cieling), Climb the Statue, which is slick with water, and Wipe away the tears. While everyone else attempts to avoid, or recieves, a rather painfull pasting. I have turned many a player into Paste with this one and do love the look on thier faces when I explain how to disarm the trap and open the exit door.

Yeah, that believably fits into SR...

On a metaplane...

Well, sure, if your runners just happen to be in Atlantis or something...

EDIT: Or some other suitably ED relic, though how one would survive so long is beyond me.

Kaer? What's that?

Fortresses created during the 4th World to keep people safe from the Horrors.

Magical traps and the like? Bound spirits and other nasty critters?

Sounds like it could make a fun run. Or a suicidial one.

I could imagine a sufficently paranoid runner or random fellow with a lot of free time on his or her hands and have some resources to spare (say, a few million in the bank and owns a small mansion/large house or equivalent) making his bungalow a death-filled slaughterhouse with multiudes of hidden traps, activating them by hitting hidden triggers around the place as it's being raided. If it looked like if an assault on the place would end in the owner's demise, there would always be the coup de grate (sp?) of the classic bolthole-into-a-tunnel-leading-out-of-compound-with-switch-at-end-of-it-that-sets-off-tons-of-explosives-in-the-walls-blowing-up-house-and-guests-and-neighborhood trick.

Oh, and on a possible ED/SR crossover thought: Grimtooth Level-Of-Sadism Traps + Ancient Structure To Explore With Archeology Team + Artificer = Evil GM Fun™.

But I'm a Good GM, and would never consider using THAT idea.

Oh no.

LordHaHa

i smell a smell of that other game...

Well, I don't think it's quite as bad as the GM in the Ruthenium thread who, in order to curb player abuse of the stuff, had it give them cancer...

However, what clues are the players given that they must wipe the statues eyes? It's a statue in a fountain, of course it's wet. Wiping it's eye is really not something that would occur to me.

A spherical boulder leaves a foot and a half clearance there that most characters should be able to fit into.

Yes this was pointed out to me the other night by one of my players, and so the trap has been changed. The walls are not flat, they curve, no corner, no place to hide.

This is a trap that no one would ever build except a GM, and a GM would only build because they like to kill characters.

Personally I don’t like to Kill Characters, I get a small amount of watching Characters win Darwin awards but rarely will I ever outright Kill a character.

So, you force your players to make Will tests (And fail, I assume... Where do you set the Tn? 12? 18?)

I never give Target numbers any higher then 6, and if they fail tests, only thing they can blame is their luck with the Dice.

Then, you state they're automatically caught by the statue - ever hear of surprise or reaction tests? Escape artist or unarmed combat to resist being grappled?

If they gotta reaction, or quickness of oh say 20 I’ll allow the attempt, and if they were smart enough to start with or purchase Escape Artist as a skill I’d also allow the attempt. Normally however The Statue is definitely Magical as the tears she sheds aren’t pumped into or out of her through plumbing, instead they are produced magically. So if the mage has enough time to study her they might be able to also discern the fact that the statue can also Move. However if any member is greedy or curious enough to touch the bracelet without giving everyone else plenty of time to study … “click”

The Boulder only automatically Kills if the players aren’t able to resist the damage ( fail Body Check)

However, what clues are the players given that they must wipe the statues eyes?

Like I said when I started, whatever game mechanics you wanna add to it, Clues, Safety Switches, Evidence, Go For It. I Usually have some sort of reference to “comfort the widow” or something like that on the treasure map or what have you, usually I reward good moral judgements and punish choices based on the deadly sins. Something I make quite apparent to all my Players.

I don't have to endure such an asinine idiotic GM such as yourself
Love you Too Toots, yeah like everyone else in the entire world I do prefer to be Judged by what others notice from first glance.

The quote function is your friend.

Other than that ...

if you're talkinga bout traps that can be used in a SR type environment, you need to remember that the building or environment needs to either be able to determin the difference between friend and Foe, or be able to deactivate the trap at some point. Either Everyone whos supposed to be in the building has a transponder, knows the number for the mag lock, has their bio-metric dats stored... whatever. OR the traps are only active from 5:31pm, (ie, a minute fter everyones; left for the night, ) untill Joe P Security gurard turns up in the morning to unlock.

here's a list of the traps I've used in the past.

Single step Discharge lasers. you have a laser tripwire across a corridor, or door, and when broken, it discharges a full on re-line (or if i'm feeling evil a burst) across the same line. No need to roll to hit... Characters can use either body, OR quickness to resist damage, as resisting in this case, just involves getting the body part in question out of the way fast enough.

Monowire Pendulums. You've all seen "cube". You all know what happens in the first 60 seconds of the film. You know it's messy, but as long as the super corp has put the trap someplace that you CANT possibly have accidentally wondered into, it's not going to be a n issue for them.

Containment doors. This is an idea i actually got from work. to get into the building, department, clean room, server room , whatever, you have to go thru a C shaped revolving door. First you enter a password, or swip a card. the door rotates. you enter. it rotates thru 90 degrees... sealing you into a small space. You then enter a second password/ card and it rotates the next 90 degrees. In my case, as the office in question was supposed to be closed, the chamber filled with neuro stun, and the system notified the local security. (or it would have done, hd someone not allready turned them into small red stains)

Electrified Doors / walls / floors.

Pit traps. 5 meters deep. the walls are covered in what effectivly ammounts to slip spray. the floor was padded.. so that only minimal falling damage was sustained. In the morning, security turn up, and either taser the contents into submission, or simply reset the trap. (as it turns out, the party shaman knew Levitate... so this one was less effective than it should have been)

"Lock Down rooms". Pretty simple design actually. the building was laid out so that to get into any particular department, you had to go thru one of 4 cross-road type junctions. They were all fitted with a suit of sensors, and as soon as they detected that someone was crossing them outside of the proscribed times, 4 sheets of 2 inch thick hardened steel drop from the ceiling, making a pretty much inpenetrable room. Neuro stun was then dispensed.

the "ever popular stairs / slide trap". this one was lifted straight from grimtooth. the stairs are actually hinged, and at the push of a button / incorrect sequence of steps, the stairs go click, form a slide, Slip spray is applied, and the pit trap at the bottom of the stairs is unlocked. iirc it went "click, Spray, slide, crash"

of course if you want to be just EVIL, and kill someone outright, just have Bee size microdrones loaded up with cutters.

on the ONE occasion i put someone thru a D&D style Dungeon crawl (it was actually for an astral quest) it was the traps that did all of the damage. from the simple "cross bow / trip wire" trap in the second room, to the "large vat of hot acid in the last door", someone in the party managed to trip ALL of them. The critters populating said dungeon spent a large ammount of their time betting on who'd fall foul of the next trap.... or laughing their asses off... not fighting with the PC's.

I suppose a trap like that is something that someone could stumble across on a metaplane, during an astral quest or the like, but just about anywhere else would get a pretty big WTF? from me. And you still haven't explained where the will test to not grab the bracelt comes from.

From Fortune
The Quote function is your friend

Response: as I’ve much confusing views to clarify at the moment it’s not, but I’ll do a better job of keeping things separated this time around.

From Sir Kodiak
The damage code on that check has to be huge or you're seriously underestimating the kind of damage that a boulder is going to do when hitting someone at high speed.

Response: Yer correct I probably am. And I’m probably bending the rules in favor of the players.

From Sir Kodiak
Good moral judgements? Are you aware you're running Shadowrun, which is about people who are professional criminals? Theft and murder are a pretty standard activity. And what moral failing did the people who didn't take the bracelet have? They're the ones getting crushed by a giant boulder while the guy who went for it is safe by the statue.

Response: Morality, Criminal, all depends on your personal viewpoint. Some people are just not meant to waste their lives in an office, or laboratory, but instead are needed in the shadows to balance out some of the real evil bloodthirsty fraggers lurking there. As far as the bracelet taker being safest, if that’s the way you wanna run it chummer, go for it.

Sir Kodiak
Only a madman would actually build the room, and they rarely have the follow-through to get that sort of thing done. There is no believable reason that someone would actually build that thing, which means it's blatant metagaming on. the part of the GM.

Response: Exactly, a madman, like Rasputin, Imhotep, and Tetsuo Shima. Actually it’s usually part of a DungeonDelve CavernCrawl, Usually with a Lich to Kill or some diety created Magickal Item that needs to be obtained.

And MMU1 gets the grand prize. Yes I am a bit of a Newbie at GM’ing, Some of the rules in the book (First edition) don’t make sense so <shrug> I don’t use them. I just keep everything based on D6 and allow the player to attempt anything they want to try to resolve a situation.

Sandoval Smith: And you still haven't explained where the will test to not grab the bracelt comes from.
Response: The Willpower test is invoked due to the fact that the bracelet is worth about 15million creds or more, ie Stratospheric value.

LinaInverse : Putting this setup in some Corp building or compound is where I find great offense.
Response: Nah I wouldn’t do that, It’s more of a trap to put into an Abandoned Temple. Oh, and thank you for easing up on the namecalling. From time to time the players will need a break from city life and it’s off into the countryside, which is not only controlled by the NAN and other Tribal forces but also contain Rifts. I don’t strictly run Shadowrun, I also use VampMasquerade, Rifts, DnD, Murphy’s World, and just about anything else that catches my eye. As stated before I just make sure everything’s based on D6.

Personally I'm a fan of an adaptation of the old Adam's Family security set-up. To get into the vault, you approach a bookshelf. One of the books is entitled "Greed." Pull it, and the vault opens. I'd add with a number of other titles ("Lust" would have a DMSO+aphrodisiac of your choice coating, and "Do not touch this book" would deliver an electrical shock as a 6S stun attack from implanted electrodes...the spine did say "Do not touch this book," afterall.)

Seriously, Weredigo, the quote button is right at the top of the page after you hit the "add reply" button. It's very easy to use. Use the "preview post" button to experiment with how to use it. It makes things much easier to read. It shows respect for the people you're talking to if you spend a little bit of time on making things easier to understand by using the formatting that is appropriate to the forum.