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> My players are storming a building and, lookin' for an EMP
JavaLamp
post Feb 7 2005, 10:48 PM
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Ok, my players are on a mission to prevent a building from being leveled, there are explosives at the site and a couple dozen guys there too, One of my players has asked for an EMP device as an attempt to take out the detonators and whatever else they can before going in (that *can* be taken out by EMP) Since EMP is given a miss in Shadowrun by the fact that optical electronics prevail, what would the stats for such a device be? cost, availability, effect, etc. (the only SR stats I can find are on dead webpages... grr)

-JL
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grendel
post Feb 7 2005, 10:55 PM
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EMP destroys electronic devices by causing a massive surge of current. Given that most building demolitions are done utilizing shaped charge plastic explosives, which are detonated electronically, discharging an EMP device in the proximity would cause the explosives to detonate.
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FrostyNSO
post Feb 7 2005, 11:15 PM
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Am I the only one that ever seems to remember that early in the SR timeline, they developed electronics components that could withstand the effects of an electro-magnetic pulse?

By the 2060's I'd suspect this technology is pretty much standard.
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BitBasher
post Feb 7 2005, 11:20 PM
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And AFAIK there's really no canon EMP weapons in SR really.
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Jrayjoker
post Feb 7 2005, 11:20 PM
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An EMP would either detonate the charges because they are hooked into an elaborately timed circuit of wires (albeit on a large scale instead of a circuit board), or do nothing because the current it generated in the large scale circuit is too small to set them off.

Besides, the detonation signal will be sent from 1/2mile away.

If it is a land line, cut it. If it is an electronic signal, jam it.
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Toshiaki
post Feb 7 2005, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Am I the only one that ever seems to remember that early in the SR timeline, they developed electronics components that could withstand the effects of an electro-magnetic pulse?

If I'm remembering right, it was the development of optical components that you are referring to.
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FrostyNSO
post Feb 7 2005, 11:30 PM
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I think that's it. They don't like me bringing Shadowrun books to work :D
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kevyn668
post Feb 7 2005, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
I think that's it. They don't like me bringing Shadowrun books to work :D

You got that problem, too? Damn the Man! <Shakes fist>
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Toshiaki
post Feb 7 2005, 11:50 PM
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That's it! The Man is an Immortal Nazi Elf who is masterminding a conspiracy to keep us from having access to our libraries.

Wait...why is everyone looking at me funny?

I found a reference in the Dumpshock Timeline Explorer:
QUOTE
2002 - New technology makes it possible to build an optical chip that is proof against electromagnetic pulse effects. (Ka-Ge magazine)


So it's probably safe to assume that since it was developed in 2002 pretty much everything in the current time would be safe from emps.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 8 2005, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (Toshiaki @ Feb 7 2005, 06:50 PM)
That's it!  The Man is an Immortal Nazi Elf who is masterminding a conspiracy to keep us from having access to our libraries.

Wait...why is everyone looking at me funny?

I found a reference in the Dumpshock Timeline Explorer:
QUOTE
2002 - New technology makes it possible to build an optical chip that is proof against electromagnetic pulse effects. (Ka-Ge magazine)


So it's probably safe to assume that since it was developed in 2002 pretty much everything in the current time would be safe from emps.

You'd still need electrical capacitors to use the optical elements that read/record onto the chip. All this means is that the data on the chip no longer is destroyed by an EMP (since it is essentially an array of red/green dyes). An EMP will still fry chip-readers, chip-recorders, personal computers, or anything else that uses a laser and isn't EMP shielded. You can't make everything optical... you can at least save the data from being lost, though.
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Cray74
post Feb 8 2005, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
[QUOTE=Toshiaki,Feb 7 2005, 06:50 PM] That's it!† The You'd still need electrical capacitors to use the optical elements that read/record onto the chip. All this means is that the data on the chip no longer is destroyed by an EMP (since it is essentially an array of red/green dyes). An EMP will still fry chip-readers, chip-recorders, personal computers, or anything else that uses a laser and isn't EMP shielded. You can't make everything optical... you can at least save the data from being lost, though.

The text does not say "data only," it refers to optical chips generically.

"2002: The first optical that can stand up to electromagnetic pulse effects is constructed. Welcome to the data revolution."

I suspect the writers were attempting to avoid the headaches of EMP. So, apparently, optical processors, optical storage devices, and any other optical storage chips are immune to EMP.
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Bearclaw
post Feb 8 2005, 12:33 AM
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An EMP does not effect capacitors and other components. It fries small IC's. The kind of stuff that would get cooked by your personal static electricity.

Jamming a signal is done by flooding the frequency. Jamming the freq of a radio detonator is very likely going to detonate the charge. Most are just waiting for A signal, not a specific signal. That's why blast zones have all kinds of warning signs
about cell phones and radios, etc.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 8 2005, 12:52 AM
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QUOTE (Cray74 @ Feb 7 2005, 07:23 PM)
The text does not say "data only," it refers to optical chips generically.

"2002: The first optical that can stand up to electromagnetic pulse effects is constructed. Welcome to the data revolution."

I suspect the writers were attempting to avoid the headaches of EMP. So, apparently, optical processors, optical storage devices, and any other optical storage chips are immune to EMP.

The text is from Ka-Ge magazine. Whether or not you consider that canon is a personal choice.

We have EMP-shielded electronics now. It would be safe to assume that some things (but not all things) may be shielded against EMP, especially high end military or corporate gear. But I have a hard time believing that everything would be immune to EMP.

Oh, and EMP affects anything made of electrically conductive metal. The concern on an optical system is not the optical chips shorting out (which they can't), but the physical damage from the power supply (I challenge you to find a place where SR states they don't use electricity for their electronics gear), which gets hit with a force of a small lightning strike, one that surge protectors can't handle.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 8 2005, 12:52 AM
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Delete: Double post
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FrostyNSO
post Feb 8 2005, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
We have EMP-shielded electronics now. It would be safe to assume that some things (but not all things) may be shielded against EMP, especially high end military or corporate gear. But I have a hard time believing that everything would be immune to EMP.

Yeah, and 50 years ago, nobody thought you'd be able to carry your telephone in your pocket and watch videos on that telephone....sheesh.

There is a reference in SR3 as well, not just that magazine, BTW.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 8 2005, 01:38 AM
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QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Yeah, and 50 years ago, nobody thought you'd be able to carry your telephone in your pocket and watch videos on that telephone....sheesh.

There is a reference in SR3 as well, not just that magazine, BTW.

It's been 100 years, and we are still using radio as a method of mass communication. Just because the tech advances doesn't mean that it hits the streets. Why would anyone NEED an EMP shielded device unless it became a massive problem? That's just extra parts in manufacturing, and corporations like toeing the bottom line.

Can you send a page reference? They haven't made the Core Rules into a searchable PDF yet, so I'm waiting. *grin*
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DrJest
post Feb 8 2005, 01:42 AM
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Optical chips might be proof against EMP, but at least according to one GM of mine, cyberware ain't :) I recall getting emp'd whilst playing a cybersam. Complete bitch, I had cybereyes and was blind for about half a dozen combat rounds. Mind you, it was a pretty funky fight - me, blind and with a retractable polearm (this was barely post-80's, I had a whole Predator thing going with the gear), on top of a speeding train, duelling with the really rather talented techno-ninja team who were trying to get the cargo my boys were protecting.
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Fortune
post Feb 8 2005, 01:43 AM
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The magazine just sets the event in the timeline. The actual ruling about how EMP does (or in this case does not) affect electronics is canon, especially in the case of Cyberware.
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tisoz
post Feb 8 2005, 02:37 AM
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QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Yeah, and 50 years ago, nobody thought you'd be able to carry your telephone in your pocket and watch videos on that telephone....sheesh.

"Well, 50 years ago they promised us hovercars! Dammit, I want my hovercar!
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QUOTE
There is a reference in SR3 as well, not just that magazine, BTW.

I was wondering if that was referencing a guy named Kage, not the fanzine.
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Edward
post Feb 8 2005, 09:32 AM
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By logic and todayís physics and emp should be effective. That said by logic and todayís science 90% of SR tech (not to mention magic) is imposable. The main book says EMPs are useless. If you want logic a big engulf emp will fire the detonators (better hope there not wired in yet)availability is almost imposable because nobody uses them because they donít do anything useful (you may have a special case but there till not on the shelf) cost is arbitrary and more related to the difficulty of finding one than the difficulty of making one.

Edward
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DarkShade
post Feb 8 2005, 11:02 AM
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based on physics: an EMP will produce a current on any metal wires. <induction generated by the field change, depending on length of wire and field strength>
in your case, depending on the detonators used, and the type of explosive it may very well set them off. <plastic explosives are set off using electricity>, any emp device big enough to reliably fry detonators will also set off the explosives.

as for cyber and computers,etc. canon says it does not work. our current chips get fried because they are based on conductors, emp "shielding" is a very complicated process and unlikely to be applied en masse.
however, in SR the whole basic principle behind computing has changed. everything is optical, meaning no conducting wires meaning no electric currents created by emps so emp away, computers will not be harmed at all. EMp`s are useless in sr. Now some gms like to modify their worlds so that emp`s work.. in that case an emp would be a nightmare device/WMD to a world so dependent on high tech as sr, heavily cibered people would likely be killed or at least require very expensive replacements and surgery to get to the damaged chips, never mind what might happen to you if you had some headware installed & got some electric shocks directly into the gray tissue because of an EMP..

DS
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Austere Emancipa...
post Feb 8 2005, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (DarkShade)
in your case, depending on the detonators used, and the type of explosive it may very well set them off. <plastic explosives are set off using electricity>, any emp device big enough to reliably fry detonators will also set off the explosives.

If you use metagame logic to describe the effects of EMP, then you should also use metagame logic to describe plastic explosives, which leads to electricity absolutely not setting off the explosives. However, electric blasting caps might be ignited by the current produced by the EMP, which would then cause the explosives to prematurely explode. I wouldn't exactly count on that effect, though.
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Crusher Bob
post Feb 8 2005, 12:34 PM
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Surrounging something with chicken wire of tin foil is a complicated process?

Faraday Cage

Next, the plastic explosive are not set of by an electrical charge...

There is a smaller more sensitive explosive device (a blasting cap or detanator) that may be set off by electricity... This is stuck on/into the block of plastic explosives. The plastic explosives themselves are quite stable (at least, good plastic explosives) and require and 'explosiion' )heat and pressure) to set off. This allows you to store small quanities of relatively volatile explosives (blasting caps) seperately from much larger quanities of stable explosives. You don't mate the two up until it's time to blow something up.

So, to be more proper, the EMP may set off the blasting caps/detanators if they are electrically fired, which will, in turn, set of the larger explosive charge.

C-4 can be cooked with (it burns quite well), just don't try stomping on it to put it out, of flinging flaming balls of it anywhere...

Next,

In general any passage through EM radiation will induce currents in metal, the 'EMP' generated by a nuke is so famous because the amount of radiation produced is enough to acutally damage electronics. A simple hand held radio will incude currents in nearby electronics (see earlier comments about radios and blasting areas). It's takes a pretty large RF/EMP device to actually destory electronics...
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Cray74
post Feb 8 2005, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Feb 7 2005, 07:23 PM)
The text does not say "data only," it refers to optical chips generically.

"2002: The first optical that can stand up to electromagnetic pulse effects is constructed. Welcome to the data revolution."

I suspect the writers were attempting to avoid the headaches of EMP. So, apparently, optical processors, optical storage devices, and any other optical storage chips are immune to EMP.


The text is from Ka-Ge magazine. Whether or not you consider that canon is a personal choice.

Your text or my text?

Mine is right out of the timeline in the front of SR3. There's a sidebar detailing advances in technology. Just look for the sidebar that has an entry for 2002 at its top.
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Thistledown
post Feb 8 2005, 06:07 PM
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Look in rigger 3. Things are still quite electronic based. they have a section just for when vehicles and drones get hit with electrical attacks. while the chips can take the emp, it doesn't mean the motors, power supplies, cabeling, sensors, and everything else can. Emp's will still stop a car, turn off cyberware, and can possibly cause a building's systems to reboot or freeze up.

That said, I would not recomend them to stop a detonation. All you'd do is make it go off early, while the demo crew was still inside the building. Course, if you did this on a different building with the same crew, and they couldn't trace it, then I suppose their safety record would drop. There'd be an investigation, all their other projects would be put on hold, hmmm.
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