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JavaLamp
Ok, my players are on a mission to prevent a building from being leveled, there are explosives at the site and a couple dozen guys there too, One of my players has asked for an EMP device as an attempt to take out the detonators and whatever else they can before going in (that *can* be taken out by EMP) Since EMP is given a miss in Shadowrun by the fact that optical electronics prevail, what would the stats for such a device be? cost, availability, effect, etc. (the only SR stats I can find are on dead webpages... grr)

-JL
grendel
EMP destroys electronic devices by causing a massive surge of current. Given that most building demolitions are done utilizing shaped charge plastic explosives, which are detonated electronically, discharging an EMP device in the proximity would cause the explosives to detonate.
FrostyNSO
Am I the only one that ever seems to remember that early in the SR timeline, they developed electronics components that could withstand the effects of an electro-magnetic pulse?

By the 2060's I'd suspect this technology is pretty much standard.
BitBasher
And AFAIK there's really no canon EMP weapons in SR really.
Jrayjoker
An EMP would either detonate the charges because they are hooked into an elaborately timed circuit of wires (albeit on a large scale instead of a circuit board), or do nothing because the current it generated in the large scale circuit is too small to set them off.

Besides, the detonation signal will be sent from 1/2mile away.

If it is a land line, cut it. If it is an electronic signal, jam it.
Toshiaki
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Am I the only one that ever seems to remember that early in the SR timeline, they developed electronics components that could withstand the effects of an electro-magnetic pulse?

If I'm remembering right, it was the development of optical components that you are referring to.
FrostyNSO
I think that's it. They don't like me bringing Shadowrun books to work biggrin.gif
kevyn668
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
I think that's it. They don't like me bringing Shadowrun books to work biggrin.gif

You got that problem, too? Damn the Man! <Shakes fist>
Toshiaki
That's it! The Man is an Immortal Nazi Elf who is masterminding a conspiracy to keep us from having access to our libraries.

Wait...why is everyone looking at me funny?

I found a reference in the Dumpshock Timeline Explorer:
QUOTE
2002 - New technology makes it possible to build an optical chip that is proof against electromagnetic pulse effects. (Ka-Ge magazine)


So it's probably safe to assume that since it was developed in 2002 pretty much everything in the current time would be safe from emps.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Toshiaki @ Feb 7 2005, 06:50 PM)
That's it!  The Man is an Immortal Nazi Elf who is masterminding a conspiracy to keep us from having access to our libraries.

Wait...why is everyone looking at me funny?

I found a reference in the Dumpshock Timeline Explorer:
QUOTE
2002 - New technology makes it possible to build an optical chip that is proof against electromagnetic pulse effects. (Ka-Ge magazine)


So it's probably safe to assume that since it was developed in 2002 pretty much everything in the current time would be safe from emps.

You'd still need electrical capacitors to use the optical elements that read/record onto the chip. All this means is that the data on the chip no longer is destroyed by an EMP (since it is essentially an array of red/green dyes). An EMP will still fry chip-readers, chip-recorders, personal computers, or anything else that uses a laser and isn't EMP shielded. You can't make everything optical... you can at least save the data from being lost, though.
Cray74
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
[QUOTE=Toshiaki,Feb 7 2005, 06:50 PM] That's it!† The You'd still need electrical capacitors to use the optical elements that read/record onto the chip. All this means is that the data on the chip no longer is destroyed by an EMP (since it is essentially an array of red/green dyes). An EMP will still fry chip-readers, chip-recorders, personal computers, or anything else that uses a laser and isn't EMP shielded. You can't make everything optical... you can at least save the data from being lost, though.

The text does not say "data only," it refers to optical chips generically.

"2002: The first optical that can stand up to electromagnetic pulse effects is constructed. Welcome to the data revolution."

I suspect the writers were attempting to avoid the headaches of EMP. So, apparently, optical processors, optical storage devices, and any other optical storage chips are immune to EMP.
Bearclaw
An EMP does not effect capacitors and other components. It fries small IC's. The kind of stuff that would get cooked by your personal static electricity.

Jamming a signal is done by flooding the frequency. Jamming the freq of a radio detonator is very likely going to detonate the charge. Most are just waiting for A signal, not a specific signal. That's why blast zones have all kinds of warning signs
about cell phones and radios, etc.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Feb 7 2005, 07:23 PM)
The text does not say "data only," it refers to optical chips generically.

"2002: The first optical that can stand up to electromagnetic pulse effects is constructed. Welcome to the data revolution."

I suspect the writers were attempting to avoid the headaches of EMP. So, apparently, optical processors, optical storage devices, and any other optical storage chips are immune to EMP.

The text is from Ka-Ge magazine. Whether or not you consider that canon is a personal choice.

We have EMP-shielded electronics now. It would be safe to assume that some things (but not all things) may be shielded against EMP, especially high end military or corporate gear. But I have a hard time believing that everything would be immune to EMP.

Oh, and EMP affects anything made of electrically conductive metal. The concern on an optical system is not the optical chips shorting out (which they can't), but the physical damage from the power supply (I challenge you to find a place where SR states they don't use electricity for their electronics gear), which gets hit with a force of a small lightning strike, one that surge protectors can't handle.
hahnsoo
Delete: Double post
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
We have EMP-shielded electronics now. It would be safe to assume that some things (but not all things) may be shielded against EMP, especially high end military or corporate gear. But I have a hard time believing that everything would be immune to EMP.

Yeah, and 50 years ago, nobody thought you'd be able to carry your telephone in your pocket and watch videos on that telephone....sheesh.

There is a reference in SR3 as well, not just that magazine, BTW.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Yeah, and 50 years ago, nobody thought you'd be able to carry your telephone in your pocket and watch videos on that telephone....sheesh.

There is a reference in SR3 as well, not just that magazine, BTW.

It's been 100 years, and we are still using radio as a method of mass communication. Just because the tech advances doesn't mean that it hits the streets. Why would anyone NEED an EMP shielded device unless it became a massive problem? That's just extra parts in manufacturing, and corporations like toeing the bottom line.

Can you send a page reference? They haven't made the Core Rules into a searchable PDF yet, so I'm waiting. *grin*
DrJest
Optical chips might be proof against EMP, but at least according to one GM of mine, cyberware ain't smile.gif I recall getting emp'd whilst playing a cybersam. Complete bitch, I had cybereyes and was blind for about half a dozen combat rounds. Mind you, it was a pretty funky fight - me, blind and with a retractable polearm (this was barely post-80's, I had a whole Predator thing going with the gear), on top of a speeding train, duelling with the really rather talented techno-ninja team who were trying to get the cargo my boys were protecting.
Fortune
The magazine just sets the event in the timeline. The actual ruling about how EMP does (or in this case does not) affect electronics is canon, especially in the case of Cyberware.
tisoz
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Yeah, and 50 years ago, nobody thought you'd be able to carry your telephone in your pocket and watch videos on that telephone....sheesh.

"Well, 50 years ago they promised us hovercars! Dammit, I want my hovercar!
-Red Foreman



QUOTE
There is a reference in SR3 as well, not just that magazine, BTW.

I was wondering if that was referencing a guy named Kage, not the fanzine.
Edward
By logic and todayís physics and emp should be effective. That said by logic and todayís science 90% of SR tech (not to mention magic) is imposable. The main book says EMPs are useless. If you want logic a big engulf emp will fire the detonators (better hope there not wired in yet)availability is almost imposable because nobody uses them because they donít do anything useful (you may have a special case but there till not on the shelf) cost is arbitrary and more related to the difficulty of finding one than the difficulty of making one.

Edward
DarkShade
based on physics: an EMP will produce a current on any metal wires. <induction generated by the field change, depending on length of wire and field strength>
in your case, depending on the detonators used, and the type of explosive it may very well set them off. <plastic explosives are set off using electricity>, any emp device big enough to reliably fry detonators will also set off the explosives.

as for cyber and computers,etc. canon says it does not work. our current chips get fried because they are based on conductors, emp "shielding" is a very complicated process and unlikely to be applied en masse.
however, in SR the whole basic principle behind computing has changed. everything is optical, meaning no conducting wires meaning no electric currents created by emps so emp away, computers will not be harmed at all. EMp`s are useless in sr. Now some gms like to modify their worlds so that emp`s work.. in that case an emp would be a nightmare device/WMD to a world so dependent on high tech as sr, heavily cibered people would likely be killed or at least require very expensive replacements and surgery to get to the damaged chips, never mind what might happen to you if you had some headware installed & got some electric shocks directly into the gray tissue because of an EMP..

DS
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (DarkShade)
in your case, depending on the detonators used, and the type of explosive it may very well set them off. <plastic explosives are set off using electricity>, any emp device big enough to reliably fry detonators will also set off the explosives.

If you use metagame logic to describe the effects of EMP, then you should also use metagame logic to describe plastic explosives, which leads to electricity absolutely not setting off the explosives. However, electric blasting caps might be ignited by the current produced by the EMP, which would then cause the explosives to prematurely explode. I wouldn't exactly count on that effect, though.
Crusher Bob
Surrounging something with chicken wire of tin foil is a complicated process?

Faraday Cage

Next, the plastic explosive are not set of by an electrical charge...

There is a smaller more sensitive explosive device (a blasting cap or detanator) that may be set off by electricity... This is stuck on/into the block of plastic explosives. The plastic explosives themselves are quite stable (at least, good plastic explosives) and require and 'explosiion' )heat and pressure) to set off. This allows you to store small quanities of relatively volatile explosives (blasting caps) seperately from much larger quanities of stable explosives. You don't mate the two up until it's time to blow something up.

So, to be more proper, the EMP may set off the blasting caps/detanators if they are electrically fired, which will, in turn, set of the larger explosive charge.

C-4 can be cooked with (it burns quite well), just don't try stomping on it to put it out, of flinging flaming balls of it anywhere...

Next,

In general any passage through EM radiation will induce currents in metal, the 'EMP' generated by a nuke is so famous because the amount of radiation produced is enough to acutally damage electronics. A simple hand held radio will incude currents in nearby electronics (see earlier comments about radios and blasting areas). It's takes a pretty large RF/EMP device to actually destory electronics...
Cray74
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Feb 7 2005, 07:23 PM)
The text does not say "data only," it refers to optical chips generically.

"2002: The first optical that can stand up to electromagnetic pulse effects is constructed. Welcome to the data revolution."

I suspect the writers were attempting to avoid the headaches of EMP. So, apparently, optical processors, optical storage devices, and any other optical storage chips are immune to EMP.


The text is from Ka-Ge magazine. Whether or not you consider that canon is a personal choice.

Your text or my text?

Mine is right out of the timeline in the front of SR3. There's a sidebar detailing advances in technology. Just look for the sidebar that has an entry for 2002 at its top.
Thistledown
Look in rigger 3. Things are still quite electronic based. they have a section just for when vehicles and drones get hit with electrical attacks. while the chips can take the emp, it doesn't mean the motors, power supplies, cabeling, sensors, and everything else can. Emp's will still stop a car, turn off cyberware, and can possibly cause a building's systems to reboot or freeze up.

That said, I would not recomend them to stop a detonation. All you'd do is make it go off early, while the demo crew was still inside the building. Course, if you did this on a different building with the same crew, and they couldn't trace it, then I suppose their safety record would drop. There'd be an investigation, all their other projects would be put on hold, hmmm.
lorthazar
In all reality everything that runs on electricity in a given area will be toasted for a certain time. With enough power behind your EMP the lighbulbs will go permanently those little red and green lasers will be fried, electric motors will seize, Smartguns become dumb, laser sights become useless, electronic imaging cameras will be toast, tasers will be history, and I pity the poor rigger connected to the building. BTW an EMP device big enough to do this to an area the size of the Astrodome? An average size man can carry two in his backpack. now this effect won't last long 45 seconds to a couple minutes maybe more if you can take out a transformer with the blast radius.

My source-My father who holds a Class One FCC license and a master Degree in Broadcast Engineering.
Jrayjoker

QUOTE
That said, I would not recomend them to stop a detonation. All you'd do is make it go off early, while the demo crew was still inside the building. Course, if you did this on a different building with the same crew, and they couldn't trace it, then I suppose their safety record would drop. There'd be an investigation, all their other projects would be put on hold, hmmm.


It sucks to be a specialty engineering company in your universe, doesn't it...

The best way to prevent the blast is to remove the detonators at this point. Lots of work, and probably not a lot of time to do it.
Cray74
QUOTE (Thistledown @ Feb 8 2005, 06:07 PM)
Look in rigger 3.  Things are still quite electronic based.  they have a section just for when vehicles and drones get hit with electrical attacks.


Putting an arcing electrical current through a vehicle with enough force to melt sheet metal and armor is a little different than the IC-baking currents of EMP. EMP's in situ-generated currents are enough to fry small conductors (i.e., those with high resistance), while the electrical attacks of SR tend to have enough energy to damage structural members (unlike EMP).
DarkShade
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Surrounging something with chicken wire of tin foil is a complicated process?

Faraday Cage

Next, the plastic explosive are not set of by an electrical charge...

<snip>
C-4 can be cooked with (it burns quite well), just don't try stomping on it to put it out, of flinging flaming balls of it anywhere...

Next,

In general any passage through EM radiation will induce currents in metal, <snip> It's takes a pretty large RF/EMP device to actually destory electronics...

actually, yes. what you call `surrounding something in tin foil`is a very complicated engineering process if you wish to apply it to a real life construction site.
I did quite some reading back then on emp hardening and its almost like an art form, it is bloody difficult to build a real life building which is emp hardened **while maintaining all necessary connections to the outside world***.

<of course if you meant it as `could the bombs themselves be emp hardened` then yea that is easier..>

now correct me on this if I am wrong but my understanding of plastic explosives in rl is that they are detonated by an electric shock? <then again I have never researched the issue so could be wrong..> I also have understood that C4 doesnt explode on impact so it is safe to stomp on.. once again if I am wrong please correct me.
as for large emp device needed to affect real life electronics? nah they are very sensitive to currents, and are low voltage, requiring a low delta to fry.. try running your processor at just 2 volts above rating and see how long it lasts..
DS
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (DarkShade)
now correct me on this if I am wrong but my understanding of plastic explosives in rl is that they are detonated by an electric shock?

Plastic explosives are, as Crusher Bob said, detonated by heat and pressure which are usually applied in the form of a blasting cap, which is basically a small amount of a more volatile explosive in a (metallic) vessel and embedded into the explosive. The explosive in the blasting cap may or may not be set off by an electric charge, depending on the method of employment. Plastic explosives IRL are not set off by electric currents.

QUOTE (DarkShade)
I also have understood that C4 doesnt explode on impact so it is safe to stomp on.. once again if I am wrong please correct me.

If there's no source of heat around, then stomping on most commonly used high explosives is relatively safe. However, when the C-4 is burning, the heat (from the flames) and the pressure (from stomping) may set off the explosive. This is said to have happened in wars where plastic explosives have been used for cooking.

QUOTE (DarkShade)
as for large emp device needed to affect real life electronics?

The thing is, there are no devices which can produce a strong EMP. Even inducing a current of 2 volts at the distance of hundreds of meters into fairly small metal objects is no mean task.

Nukes are indeed in a class of their own in this respect. A sizeable warhead detonated at the height of 100km could cover Europe from Ireland and most of Spain in the west to nearly all of Italy in the south and 1/3rd of Sweden in the north, and Ukraine in the east. All over that area, antennas, powerlines, etc. could get charged with up to several kilovolts per meter of conductor.
Cray74
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
The thing is, there are no devices which can produce a strong EMP. Even inducing a current of 2 volts at the distance of hundreds of meters into fairly small metal objects is no mean task.


Conventional EMP weapons may not be up to par with the continent-spanning blast of a high altitude nuke, but a 2000lb bomb should be able to deliver a decent EMP in a 200m radius:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...nitions/hpm.htm

Details on conventional EMP bombs:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchro...opp/apjemp.html

It would appear that an EMP weapon is within the capabilities of a runner with moderate demolitions and electronic skills, access to some explosives and electronics, and access to the Matrix for fine details of construction.
Austere Emancipator
Based on that, I admit I underestimated the capability of currently existing EMP weapons. Although I'd rather say "a runner with access to explosives and a lot of electronics", since some of the parts in the diagram in the first link don't seem like they're made off stuff you could find in a Radio Shack. Although admittedly with a high enough Electronics (+ B/R, depending on the GM) skill that wouldn't be too great an obstacle.
Kagetenshi
As I remember, a basic EMP is just a bomb with a lot of wire wrapped around it.

~J
Cray74
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
As I remember, a basic EMP is just a bomb with a lot of wire wrapped around it.


...roughly, yes. Part of the trick is to build up a magnetic field in that wire prior to setting off the bomb, and then not to forget the microwave emitter that will generate the EMP. The point of the bomb is to "inflate" a conductive pipe inside the wire coil.

QUOTE
Where the [copper pipe] has [been inflated by the explosive] to the full diameter of the [wire coil], it forms a short circuit between the ends of the [wire coil], shorting and thus isolating the start current source and trapping the current within the device. The propagating short [circuit] has the effect of compressing the magnetic field, whilst reducing the inductance of the [wire coil]. The result is that such generators will [a rapidly increasing electrical current], which peaks before the final disintegration of the device. Published results suggest ... peak currents of tens of MegaAmperes and peak energies of tens of MegaJoules.


Diagram:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchro...opp/coaxfcg.gif

The current coming out of the device is then used to power a microwave emitter.


Austere Emancipator
Ah, OK, so the basics are simple, the armed forces' unnecessarily complicated language just fooled me. Okay then, a reasonably effective EMP bomb would definitely be possible for a resourceful team of runners.
DarkShade
Thanx AE for the explain. hmm this brings up an old issue, if heat & pressure can ignite C4 does this mean I can detonate a bunch of C4 by firing at it?
<this is a big issue in our campaign as one fo the runners does have a penchant for using c4 when stealth allows.. said c4 is usually transported in the trunk of the car, and they do get shot at rather frequently.. >


DS
Austere Emancipator
What are you firing at it? Most small arms bullets will not impart much heat on the explosive.
DarkShade
hmm. . I was under the impression that there was a lot of heat generated by bullets as they are brought to a stop. so my next question becomes, what would it take to set them off? I am trying to determine just how safe is to carry the stuff in a firefight. would normal ammo set it off? say from a predator pistol? what about an smg? or does it take an assault cannon?

DS
Austere Emancipator
I have to say I'm not sure, and also I think you won't get a reliable answer either way. Without Googling it, the way I'd run it as a GM is that you'd need to fire explosive bullets (of nearly any caliber) at it to set it off. Large caliber incendiaries (Sniper Rifle maybe, HMG definitely) ignited before they hit the explosive might also do the trick. Explosions transfer very poorly, so grenades and other small explosives will not set it off unless you get insanely unlucky or you're hugging the grenade.
DarkShade
well, I did some googling.. found that c4 is an extremely versatile substance. a funny detail for the skill 0 detonation guys is that std nr 8 blasting caps apparently can cause a dud as the more powerful military j8 is needed. it seems also that when burning <it burns quite easily> it exudes toxic fumes.. I also learned semtex exudes a liquid when stored.. & a lot more.. we are all a bit too spoilt with movies, but real life demolition is not as simple as it sounds. I also realised explosive ranges in nsr are meaningless since they dont account for shrapnel whcih si the deadliest effect..*sigh* another houserule-to-do..

in any case it seems c4 is perfectly safe except in extreme conditions but turns really unstable if heated up. <so if you are carrying some and it gets set on fire by a fireball be VERY careful when attempting to put out the fire, or when throwing it away smile.gif

DS
Austere Emancipator
The Blast ratings are meaningless because they're crap. Powerful explosive = powerful overpressure waves = overpressure waves travel further.
A few threads on explosives:
Explosive Ratings, what am i missing
Explosive forms
Explosives


I got 2 hours of training for military demolitions and still managed to blow a 1 x 1 meter hole in a car roof with detcord, sever a heavy cable with 2 100g TNT charges. People with just as much training also cut a steel I-beam with plastic explosives, some holes into steel plates with special cutter charges, etc. There's plenty of stuff you can achieve with some TNT, a few blasting caps, a bit of fuze and some very basic skills.
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