 Shadowrun: Cyberpunk and what's next? |
  |
 Feb 10 2005, 03:03 AM
Post
#51
|
|||
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118  |
Do they? I think that between fact-finding and lectures, he's kept in a cryogenic vat. Otherwise he'd outwrite all the authors on Earth, and the entire publishing business would grind to a halt. I'm not a Neal Stephenson fan at all, nosiree. Unbiased commentary on the literary deity that is Neal Stephenson, 24/7, that's the Wireknight promise. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Feb 10 2005, 03:08 AM
Post
#52
|
|
|
Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Just so long as he shuts the hell up about what goddamn operating system he uses, I'll be fine with him. The man writes sometimes great, and sometimes bad, but I just don't buy the DIVINE UR-GEEK image he tosses around.
Seems like everyone else in Seattle does, though. :( |
|
|
|
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Feb 10 2005, 05:44 AM
Post
#53
|
|
Guests |
One of the interesting things about having moved away from cyberpunk is that the idea of overcrowded cities is just so alien in the U.S. Everyone wants to move to the suburbs or exurbs or whatever some NYTimes columnists decrees them to be called this week.
Whereas all but one or two of the cities which have populations above 10 million are in the developing world, and urbanization reflects significant cultural shifts in Asia (all of Asia) and Africa--indeed, in the same way as cities like New York grew to thir current size. But, sshh... Don't tell Gibson. He'll take that and fuck it all up. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 10 2005, 01:46 PM
Post
#54
|
|||
|
Not Cameron Diaz Group: Retired Admins Posts: 472 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Newark, Delaware Member No.: 188 |
Better yet: they let Warren Ellis roam the streets, go to conventions and go to pubs, where he smokes, drinks whiskey, and writes or sends out emails to his mailing list via his Treo. And inevitably, either those messages have something utterly fantastic to say about the future (usually of comics, music, or art in some form, especially paired with technology), or he's doing his level best to make you want to insert a Brillo pad into your cerebral cortex to wipe out the images he's evoked. :) He's well worth paying attention to, at least for the former if you don't feel masochistic enough to enjoy the latter. A few examples of things he's spoken of:
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 10 2005, 03:43 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
I'm going to read that as busty and be happier for i. :wink:
Seriously though, thanks for the reccomendations. I am clickying now! |
|
|
|
|
Feb 10 2005, 03:54 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, Warren Ellis is the man. I have secret dreams that Captain Chaos is replaced by Spider Jerusalem for the next SR book. :grinbig:
Don't get me wrong, I love Shadowrun, but if I go from reading my Transmet collection to reading a Shadowrun book, SR seems so dry and sterile and clean in comparison. I wish it were dirtier and more psychotic like Transmet. |
|
|
|
 Feb 10 2005, 04:01 PM
Post
#57
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
That's why DocWagon runs Bastard Farms IMG, rather than those nice, clean, almost-morally-neutral clone-y tank things...
Does anyone else think of Damien Knight as The Smiler, or is it just me? We need a three-eyed smilie... :silly: |
|
|
|
|
Feb 10 2005, 05:13 PM
Post
#58
|
|||||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Lots to read, some to comment on :)
You know, until someone defined that on the Adept thread I was really confused. To me, "furry" is a manga or anime technique that draws anthropomorphic animals and makes them sexually attractive to a human viewpoint - eg, the cat sisters in Dominion Tank Police. You can imagine my confusion when someone said that was how Shadowrun was going...
Dig out your copy of Cybertechnology. The fictional stuff in there - Hatchetman's reminicenses - cover that really rather well. I especially liked his comments about getting cybereyes, and the feeling they gave of life as a trideo show.
Absolutely. Come on, guys, we all rag on Bill Gates whenever Micro$oft do anything we don't like (which is pretty often, let's face it).
Two words: Desolation Jones :D Iirc Ellis also created my favourite Marvel character of all time, Pete Wisdom. Go Ellis :) |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Feb 10 2005, 05:22 PM
Post
#59
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yah! That's what I mean, it more reflects how we see things today. Today, corporations have faces and personalities. Bill Gates, Martha Stewart, Jack Welsh, Steve Jobs, etc, etc. Used to be, back in the ancient 80s, we were afraid of the faceless corporations. The Sonys and Mitsubishis, who no one knew who the hell was running them. They had some faceless Americans running an American subsidiary that answered to a boogeyman Japanese board somewhere (exaggeration, yes, but that was the fear). Shadowrun is just adapting to our current attitudes. That does mean it is drifting from traditional cyberpunk, because traditional cyberpunk is now rooted in past ideas. But the writers are inspired by what they are living now and the readers and players find a common ground and an empathy with something that is a exaggeration and twist on how they see the world today. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 10 2005, 05:32 PM
Post
#60
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
or the kitty cat porn star in YotC. i think SR was heading towards some sort of anime apocalypse, starting with YotC, but everything that's come out since YotC seems to be reversing that almost-trend. for which i am eternally grateful. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 10 2005, 05:37 PM
Post
#61
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Sorry but wether the pigs have a "well known face" or not does not matter. A good corper is defined as: a) Has a rope around the neck b) Has stopped kicking Does not matter that the corp has a face. It is still "the evil corp" against the "good proletarians". Compared to the 80s the world has taken a nosedive towards the worse and is closer to the basic ideas of Cyberpunk than ever. It's still us against the pigs, still the struggle for the survival of what makes us human. Do a good thing, kick a corper Birdy |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 10 2005, 05:38 PM
Post
#62
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Time to switch to decaff, mate :wobble:
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 10 2005, 05:38 PM
Post
#63
|
|||||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
Yeah, well have you read SURGE? I am sure you have. You can easily see whenn combined with the Balance Tail, and a few other things (Say the art in the Tir section of SoNA) how easy it was for me to see the writers/developers are heavily influenced by Anime/Manga-too much at times in my opinion. The plot and writing style of thegame took a turn for the worse in my opinion for a while. I think it's getting way better, by the by. SSG, DoTSW-the new stuff is realy leaps and bounds above what came out after RAS. (Which I liked) I understand the need for resolution in the game world, but a lot of stuff was pretty jerky, and sort of mystfying to me. Bug City just sort of stops, a problem they are dealing with a little better these days. Aztlan is just misunderstood, and the Tir isn't really a threat. (I love Ken, but I think letting him have the Tir was a huge mistake. Not because he is bad writer, or untalented-because he and I disagree on the direction the game should go, especially where IE's and the ED connection is concerned.)
Absolutely. I think that's what made the game spectacular. The section in front of Fields of Fire by Matador, the pages in Awakenings that were solely dedicated to just the sixth world. That's the lifes blood of the game as far as I am concerned. Karl Wu's section in Shadowtech on the human body-he managed to interest in me in dry science alone. That's good. I know the current crop of writers can do this-SSG is proof. So is DoTSW, and SOE. I want that to continue. Some people would say the game never lost that, and to a point I have to concede that. But I will say that for a while there I was pretty noplussed with what I was buying.
I think that's certainly a valid point. Look how much money the E network makes. :) |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Feb 10 2005, 05:38 PM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's never been a strong theme in SR, though, Birdy. except for the neo-A books, most SR material recognizes that runners and corporations are symbiotic.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 10 2005, 05:48 PM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Yeah, what's that quote? Something like "Funny how our employers, nemeses and reasons for existing are all the same"
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 10 2005, 05:54 PM
Post
#66
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
On SURGE, I can tell you straight up that the writers had very little say where that was going. SURGE was Mike's; he gave us the YotC outline (which I still have) that basically had SURGE done minus the "if any of the freelancers have ideas for more SURGE expressions, propose 'em." I argued against SURGE, I didn't like it. I wasn't the only one. But it was going in. And really, that was Mike's perogative as line designer, whether we liked it or not. As writers, we could write or walk. I actually walked (not solely because of YotC, but a collection of issues). My work in SoNA was my last work for Shadowrun for awhile, until I saw that under Rob, evident from books which I'd not been involved in (SSG, SoE, SOTA63 and SOTA64), things were really very different. The whole process is very different now. It's not perfect, but I'm much more optimistic, and I'm enjoying myself a lot more. I'm glad I came back. That said, SURGE isn't all about anime and furry stuff. I mean, pick up Transmetropolitan. It's full of freaks. It's not anime. That's another way of looking at SURGE. I mainly didn't like the "magical random expression" aspect of it. I much prefer a Shadowrun where people make themselves into freaks. By choice. Paul, are you saying Aztlan should just be a place that is misunderstood, or is that perception now the problem?
I agree with you there. There are passages in some of the books where the Sixth World really just speaks through a single voice on a single topic. And it's great. I like that. I'd like to see more of that. Shadowtalk isn't a bad thing, but it's short and to the point and scattered and doesn't have much of a voice. It should be for placing little tidbits, not trying to convey the setting. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 10 2005, 07:58 PM
Post
#67
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
I admit I am pretty divided on the issue. Basically the question for me is at what point does realism stop being cool? I mean we are playing a fantasy science fiction game, not recreating the Civil War here. I feel that some level of realism adds to the experience-in my own game it enhances our fun. But at some point you have to stop and say, look I don't want to be rolling dice for my character doing the dishes, or be reading about Sixth world Troll toilet paper brands. Aztlan is one of those issues that rides the line. On the one hand, isn't it cool to have this bad guy in the game? I mean isn't cool that we all sort of know, out of character, that Dunkelzahn is the good trying to save us from the Horrors and Aztlan's evil empire? I mean we all pretty much have solid grounding in fantasy, and sci-fi stuff right? And we like good guys. Because in real life it is so subjective. Indifference and apathy make reality so hard to deal with some times, and down right horrific at others, right? So we turn to the game for whatever reason. Maybe its because like me you have stories to tell, and it inspires you. Maybe like a player of mine, you're short and small; you always wanted to be taller, so you play Trolls and really tall characters all the time. Maybe like another guy I played with you feel you just don't have control over your life, so playing gives contol over something. or maybe its just an outlet for the violent urges you can't have anywhere else. Sometimes it's stuff like that drives us to say "Look Aztlan isn't realistic." I mean if they are the "bad guys", isn't that awfully judgmental, since it's a value judgement. And the truth has become, in the game that part of Aztlan and Aztechnology is horrific, but most of it is just a Megacorporation now right? the bottom line drove out the end of the world crew, and life goes on. Its real, but is it fun? I don't know. I mean I like absolutes in my game, in my games bugs are bad, the Catholic Church is good (Heh, I love me.) and Aztechnology is the bad corp that wants to kill the world. My players like it that way-and thatmeans they're having fun, and that means I am succeeding I think. Rambled enough now, hopefully this comes somewhat close to even answering your question. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 10 2005, 08:17 PM
Post
#68
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
one either mutates with the cultural fads of the times or one becomes stale. yes one may not like furry or anime style but i fail to see how anything other then the art (and anime style art is showing up in anything, even classic comic lines from marvel and dc comics) of shadowrun pushes the anime way.
if you look away from the pokemon, sailor moon and dragonball z wave you will see that there is many anime out there that have serious themes. ghost in the shell had the classical cyberpunk question of where man stops and machine beings embedded at its core. anime isnt a synonym for over the top fireballs and other explosions. thats only one type of storytelling, just like actions are only one kind of movie. but actions are simpler to translate and sell as you dont have to think as much. and cartoons and comics are in the west normaly seens as a child to teen thing. therefor the anime that gets translated are the ones that seems to fit that segmet, adding even more weight to the idea/image. welcome to the globalised world, while you may export mcdonalds, you risk importing something else :P |
|
|
|
|
Feb 10 2005, 08:18 PM
Post
#69
|
|||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
It does, yes. And I do agree. I'm a big fan of the "like the real world, but exaggerated" camp. Some realism, but just enough of a touch of the outrageous that it's not the real world. Sometimes I think SR is a bit too dry, too much focused on the real world. Sometimes I think it's a bit too far out there. The best stuff has been somewhere in between.
What Transmetropolitan calls the monoculture. God, I love that series. Required reading for all Shadowrun players! ;) |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 10 2005, 08:24 PM
Post
#70
|
|||
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Wow. You're, uhhh, a little bitter about how a recent job interview went, huh? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 10 2005, 08:28 PM
Post
#71
|
|||||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
if one side is to accept mcdonalds without resistance, why then should the other side suddenly be allowed to resist the oncomeing cultural import by any means available? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 10 2005, 09:00 PM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I think that SR is flexible enough to encompass all the viewpoints that have been expresses here. The overall tone of the (little g) game is completely dependant on the GM and players that are sitting around the table, and that tone will be different at every table you choose to look at. That is the best thing about the Shadowrun universe that the developers (past and present) have created.
I am going to be running a new campaign after a 5+ year hiatus where we played That Other Game and I plan on starting out fairly local and working in the world spanning conspiracies as we play. The characters are going to encounter everything from street urchins to GDs and IEs before the campaign is done, and they are going to know that 99.999% of the time they don't really know what the hell is going on. But hey, that is just my game.... In the end, we will all play the game we want to play, and hopefully we will have players who agree with our assessment if we are GMs, or GMs who ask us what we want out of the world if we are players. Now, that being said, I hate surge on a gut level, no reason whatsoever. I don't want it in my game, so it isn't. I like the path that adepts are being developed on. As mana levels rise with the cycle there will be more people in touch with it, and their expressions are going to be as individual as they are. Cyber doesn't have to be exclusive to mundanes, but it will help them keep up with the adepts when the mana levels are higher. Standard cyberware's essence costs needs to be dropped to what alphaware is at right now, and should continue to drop every couple years, and the nuyen cost should drop along with the essence cost IMO. And finally, the shift from cyberpunk to slipstream is fine by me. Like I said before, I can't keep my angst levels up high enough to make CP worth my while... |
|
|
|
|
Feb 10 2005, 10:44 PM
Post
#73
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 12-October 04 Member No.: 6,751 |
My favorite Shadowrun Sourcebooks are all still second edition sourcebooks. Cybertechnology, Field's of Fire, Awakenings all had great atmosphere. I agree with one of the earlier posters in this thread that mentioned Hatchetman's story from Cybertechnology. His description of the dehumanizing effects of Cyber just feels right to me.
I was unhappy about the direction the game was taking for a long time in the latter part of the FASA days. SURGE in particular was a low point for me. My gaming group pretty much diverged from the Canon Shadowrun universe around that time, though we are incorporating elements for some of the more recent releases. I am encouraged with the direction the game is taking now though. I like how the universe is not stagnant, that things change, society changes. Making the MegaCorps a bit less faceless makes sense. They can still be the somewhat evil entities that they've always been, but they aren't stupid, and know the value of good public relations. In the game world I play in there are other companies that aren't morally much better than Aztechnology, they just are better at disguising their motivations and actions. I also like that the state of the art is changing for technology and magic, causing some older characters problems as they find that their abilities aren't as good as they used to be. This reflects the real world quite well, IMO. The introduction of new ideas and technology will always leave some people left out in the cold. Fear of obsolesence should be common among older Shadowrunners. Over time, I think the monetary and essence cost of Cyberware should slowly fall, and more magical techniques should come available. Cyberware and magic should slowly become more and more common among the general population as itechnology becomes cheaper and the Mana level rises. |
|
|
|
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Feb 10 2005, 11:12 PM
Post
#74
|
||
|
Guests |
Not all of us bought into the Dunkelzahn the Savior hype... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 10 2005, 11:28 PM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, I personally always liked to see Dunkelzahn as just a damn good politician. But the Dragonheart Trilogy ruined all that. Damn you, Dragonheart, damn you! :|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 1st October 2025 - 06:44 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.