The mentioning in the other thread about Shadowrun being "furry" got me thinking. Long ago, Shadowrun was a spin off the cyberpunk genre, complete with its typical elements of dehumanizing technology, faceless megacorporations, edgy yakuza, chrome, leather, and cyberdecks. Since then, the authors of the cyberpunk genre, people like William Gibson and Bruce Sterling, have said that cyberpunk is a literary genre of the past, less relevent in the modern age and having suffered from its elements being commercialized (Shadowrun, interestingly enough, being an element of that commercialization).

Since then, those authors, as well as others, have moved into what they call "post-cyberpunk" and "slipstream" literature. Post-cyberpunk has many elements of the cyberpunk genre, but its characters are usually less dehumanized and more an integral part of an evolving world. Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age is seen as a good example of post-cyberpunk literature. Slipstream literature is usually rooted in the existing real life day, but with a fantastical twist of some sort. Books like William Gibson's All Tomorrow's Parties or Tad William's Otherland books are seen as slipstream, as well as most of Bruce Sterling's recent books.

Anyway, the point of this thread is that when I sit and look at it, it seems to me like Shadowrun is picking up these fundamental changes, intentionally or not, and it is shaping the game. Technology has become less dehumanizing in Shadowrun; most players don't use cyberware to make their characters "inhuman" but are leaning towards more unobtrusive 'ware or bioware. Decking moves more towards "Matrix-on-the-go" and working deckers into mainstream play, as opposed to seperating them into their own isolated world.

What about the faceless megacorporations? Well, I'd argue they've become less faceless. The corporations have been linked to "personalities", either in the corporation itself or in key celebrity figures in the corporation (Richard Villiers, Damien Knight, Lofwyr, etc.). In addition, the overwhelming power of the "Big Eight" has not only been expanded to ten, but has been eroded by an increased focusing on smaller corporations and the entire corporate world as a business ecology.

Elements like yakuza, chrome, leather, and cyberdecks are fading away into a myriad mass of evolving ideas. The yakuza are one of many; not only in the criminal element of SR, but now so much of the game also revolves around organizations people form to fulfill a role in the global society. The Draco Foundation, Yucatan rebels, the New Revolution, the Roman Catholic Church, etc. The world is not run entirely by megacorporations anymore. Icons like chrome and leather and cyberdeck cables have turned into orksploitation, neo-tribalism, and the Wireless Matrix Initiative.

The world of Shadowrun is looking more like our own real world with a fantastical twist, like Slipstream literature. It's even moving towards mimicking elements in the real world, like wireless technology or genetic engineering, in exchange for sticking to traditional cyberpunk elements. Shadowrunners have moved away from being dehumanized, obsolete humanity railing against a corrupt social order and more towards an underground, but necessary, facet of 2064's social order who help define the world, even if that isn't their goal. Just look at how many of the recent events in Shadowrun's world were influenced by the actions of shadowrunners. They are far from being cut out of the world; their strings pulled by faceless megacorps. The world of Shadowrun is populated by hundreds, if not thousands, of communities based on various ideals that form an ecology in the world, more like The Diamond Age's phyles or Snow Crash's franchised institutions than Neuromancer's faceless, monolithic megacorps. Even Shadowrun's recent horrors, like the Renraku Arcology shutdown, were an optimistic view of technology (the ideal of a perfectly-run and user-friendly arcology) turned horribly wrong by the frailities of humanity (religious otaku cults and an AI who seeks basic "human" rights).

And when you factor in magic, Shadowrun's truly fantastical twist on an otherwise very "realistic" world, it's mostly a humanizing factor, not a dehumanizing one. Magic empowers the individual, is based on communal ideas of schools and religions, and brings people together in ritual and ceremony as opposed to the cyberpunk idea of technology seperating people and dehumanizing them.

Anyway, I wouldn't be afraid of the idea that Shadowrun is drifting from cyberpunk ideals, because even cyberpunk has drifted from cyberpunk ideals. I think it's more interesting to talk about what Shadowrun might become in light of these literary and social changes.

Ah, c'mon DE. Throw a little John Shirley in there, hit the roots rather than the tree.

Seriously, we're rapidly reaching the end of definative trends and styles in literature. The Mirrorshades group has moved up and out, and so has everyone else, just like music is no longer "Rock n'Roll." So maybe SR is a little less punk and a little more like the future as it would be today. It's grown up a little. I think that's all to the good.

I'd definitely include John Shirley in the whole phenomenon. He's one of the fundamental (if not the fundamental) cyberpunk author, and even his recent works reflect the changes that have gone on in the genre.

And yeah, I agree that SR is growing up and that it's a good thing, and that the players should struggle less with Shadowrun's moving away from cyberpunk ideals and focus more on what Shadowrun should be from here.

Good way of putting it, DE. I've looked back on CP2020 and the like, and really, the games seem to lose their appeal fast. I don't share the dreams or fears they try to capture. While I do enjoy putting my shadowrunners in that sort of position occaisionally, the fact is it is becoming more 'slip stream', and those are the stories they seem to appreciate more.

Nevertheless, it does bring a tear to my eye. Our little boy is getting all grown up! *sniff* I'll miss you, silly +1 to impact leather armor, and you too mister mullet guy fighting all the ghouls.

*sigh*

You mean Billy CromeArm?

IIRC part of the reason SR3 has moved away from the bitter disenfranchisement of cyberpunk is because the people who GMed it and played it had a significant impact on the development of the game. Part of 3rd Ed's intro actually credits the evolution to input from GMs and players of the previous two editions.

Frankly I am very pleased that the world view has changed from the anti-utopian feel of cyberpunk to a more credible future-fantasy with all the inherent difficulties that the changes have wrought.

I could never get into the pure cyberpunk world in part because it took a lot more energy than I was willing to expend to remain bitter and disenfranchised for an entire gaming session. I guess that is why I couldn't stay Goth that long either.

Looking at the trends both in Shadowrun, roleplaying in general and literature:

+ They go further down the "Your either a mage or you're useless" road

+ SR get's another FeyFantasy with guns POS


Birdy

I think that the whole notion of Cyberpunk and thus SR (still) is that the protaganists of the story (ie, the players) should be fighting against the extremes of (current, modern day, RL) society as projected into a future world where everything is much worse. Back in the 80s it seemed like the future would either be CP (Japanacorps, big brother etc) or some sort of post-apocalypic thing. It just looks a bit naive now.

Look at what's shaping our world today - big government *in conjunction with* big corps - American/Western corruption, control of citizens, the environment, the media - some of the themes are the same, but look how things are different and project forward 60 years, toss in magic and stir well...

When SR was writtten I'd never used the Internet - I had no idea of what a multinational information source (like the matrix) could do - even just the simple act of discussing a SR sourcebook was impossible beyond your immediate friends. There was no notion of information sharing in that way, controls been handed on down from the music and cinema industries fighting for their lives. Anyone in their late teens/early twenties now cannot imagine just how different the world is, in so many ways.

In some ways we've lived through the revolution, but there's still a fight - good SciFi literature should point us to where we'll be and what will happen and beyond all else - SR is good scifi literature.

(that probably made more sense to me. Flu remedies and wine don't mix.)

Transporting the cyberpunk genre in Seattle in 1989 ought to naturally result in something with lighter tone, that we could have appropriately called "cybergrunge"

The central themes behind cyberpunk are mostly relevant in Shadowrun, although I agree that Shadowrun is more of an alternate history (similar to historical fiction novels) than traditional cyberpunk. The main themes are Man's inhumanity to Man, the dehumanization of Humanity through the ravages of poverty, industrialization, and social injustice, and the meaning of consciousness. Themes like these also are found in literature in the early 1900s (books like "The Jungle" and to some extent, the Communist Manifesto) born out of the industrial revolution, but Information Age technology adds a new wrinkle to the whole equation. These themes are still relevant in Shadowrun, perhaps even more so than in traditional cyberpunk because it is based on the trappings of a real world and the introduction of magic not as a panacea, but as another way that "technology" contributes to societal injustice (as the arguments over at the Adepts of SOTA 2064 thread suggest) and dehumanization.

What's this "justice" thing you speak of?

Part of this evolution is the logical extension of a true cyberpunk world given human nature and intelegent corporate operatives.

A faceless megacorperation is going to be preserved distant and hurtful buy the public, this will damage the bottom line so they present a public face. And while it is true that shadowruners have influenced major events that is usually one very lucky group of runners in the rite place at the right time. very rarely can a runner choose to do something that truly affects a megacorp.

As to the move to les obvious ware this to is a logical evolution, most runners prefer not to be seen or to be seen and ignored, this is a lot harder with a shiny creme cyber arm, ask a navy seal to carry a dozen mirrors on the outside of his gear on a mission and what is he going to say. I would have liked to see cyber arms be ether cheaper or stronger so they have something to offer over muscle toner and booster but t the least they should be vaguely flesh toned and coverable with a shirt (even the obvious ones) to get away from the shiny thing giving away your location problems.

Faith can never disappear, especially in a downtrodden population. What people have faith in can change but belief in something good and greater than yourself is the only way to stay relatively sane when there is no hope of bettering your situation and the only step don is somebody steals your box (I say relatively sain as arguably faith is a delusion depending on wether r not your right, and they cant all be right).

I think it makes much more sense as it is in SR

Edward

I love the evolution of the game. Couldn't be happier. I cringed a bit when I read about SURGE, but its a flavor thing really and there are plenty of elements of the game that I only use when I need to.

The point about the metallic shiny arm thing is both funny yet understandable. It only takes a few hundred dead street sams before the next generation realizes that low-key is better than flashy, for running. Its a logical progression.

I found that "furry" comment an unusual way to describe the evolution of the game btw.

CD2.0 said most of what I would have, but I'll come backlater to say more. Work is soon, so my time is pressed.

Growing up doesn't mean you have to stop being cool, or that you run out of ideas.

Yes, but my point is given the oppurtunity(via at least in SR, several major rulings and circumstances), it *is* profitable to a corporation to control people's lives, *especially* thier employees, who they get an immense ROI on in that situation.
Same reason most companies include health benefits and such to employees, it isn't directly profitable, but in the big picture it benefits the beast.

Fictional example:

you pay joe wage-slave $100,000 a year, we'll assume he maintains a standard 1-1.7 rate of return a fairly standard figure by today's standards at least(aka, for the $100,000 a year you pay joe, his work generates on average $170,000 for the company, gross, not net).

He lives in corp housing, eats corp food, shops at the corporate store, etc.

Lets assume he spends 100% of his income and relies on some corporate 401k for his retirement.

$80,000(80% I previously stated, probly lowball) a year he spends on corp produced goods/services.

Most retail products/services maintian a 4:1 profit to cost ratio for retail, and the same for manufacturering (it costs $5 to make, you sell it to walmart for $20, who in turn sells is to you, the consumer, for $80).

Since hes spending his 80% on corp goods/services from the corp, they get the very good 16:1 return, maybe %10 off for some employee discount plan or something, but won't confuse the math at this point for that.

So, if the $100,000 a year they pay joe , he returns $70,000 to the company in productivity, *and* 75,000 a year in profits off sales.

Meaning the company is in reality paying him absolutley nothing to do his job.

Services like garbage pickup ($15 per week), water ($30/w), administrative($100 annual), security ($3,000 annual) even if the corporation paid for his housing a bills ($1200/m)(though this is unlikley..plus sourcebooks mention they give the housing at discounted rates in the few examples).

These costs are far over-exceeded by the money joe brings back into the fold by being under the corp's thumb.

If joe was "outside the fold" then its likley only about 30% or less of his income might see its way back to the corporation.

Again, if given the option, it is *very* much in the corporations interest to basically run people's lives, like many things, theres no direct profit, but any aspiring accountant can easily figure out this would be a huge profit getter as standard policy ;>.

(I'm pretty sure my costs are mostly accurate based on current RL costs, though I can't account for the vast volume and such a AAA corp could in theory use to affect the numbers, chances are they're very over-stated in this scenario, as well as the fact that said corp only has to pay cost(+oppurtunity) for services/goods it creates in the application of living condition maintenance).

Okay I ca't figure out why my post is fuxxored.

you have to note who's being quoted. {quote=mfb}blah blah.{/quote} replace the {} with [], obviously.

Nah, you don't need to specify a name. I think it's only because he mispelled on that one, at the beginning:

"[QOUTE]And yeah, I agree that SR is growing up and that it's a good thing, and that the players should struggle less with Shadowrun's moving away from cyberpunk ideals and focus more on what Shadowrun should be from here. [/QUOTE] "

Paul, you're interpreting some of my opinions too far. I don't have anyone in my games interact with Damien Knight or Lofwyr or anything. They never get that close. But in the game world, when a megacorporation does something now, it's usually attributed to a personality. Damien Knight is going for this, or Lofwyr wants that. It's not very faceless. The corporations seem to have distinct faces more than just "Ares."

And the relationship between man and technology is still immensely important, just different. In the game world of Shadowrun, people seem less alienated and dehumanized by technology and more adept at working technology into humanity or adapting humanity to technology in a synergystic fashion. Which reflects our current real life views about technology and how they have changed since the 80s. In the 80s, America was losing jobs to Japanese zaibatsus and was worried about acid rain and greenhouse effect from industrial pollution. That went to American dot-commers living it up and a cellphone, iPod, and hybrid car for every man, woman, and child. We've come to accept, even shape, our relationship with technology. If there's an underlying anxiety now, it's in extremist and fundamentalist groups utilizing our technological society against us in terrorism. Which has crept into Shadowrun in interesting ways (what is the Renraku Arcology situation if not an originally-optimistic technological infrastructure being usurped by fanatics?).

Personal views about religion aside, Shadowrun has never stressed a dehumanizing factor in magic. Pretty much the opposite, with its focus on neo-tribalism or the integration of mages into society through corporations. There's a whole lotta communal activity in Shadowrun magic, from an economy of traded foci and formulae, to magical initiatory groups, to a shaman communing with their totem.

I think magic can be a little dehumanising, on the shamanic side of things. You've got people striving to emulate their totem, be it Snake, Crab, Fenrir, etc. Some of these totems can lead to some pretty bizarre people, especially if things get played up. And then there are toxic shamans...

They strive to live up to the principles of their totems, not emulate them.

Company towns have existed, and do exist now. Places where the corporation owns the land, the houses, the furniture, everyone works for the corporation, etc. Throw in a company controlled pension you loose if you quit and the corporation might as well own the person after a couple decades.

I actually find the snow crash style of things more plausible than the company town model, and very compatible with the old feeling of shadowrun. People living prepackaged lifestyles in corporate owned neighborhoods. This is actually a reasonably large business for disney today. They have at least a few such "towns" where people are living their whole lives in the disney bubble. The big trend in malls today is supposedly the "town center" which is physically modeled after a real small downtown, but without the civil rights and with a bunch of huge parking lots next-door. Throw in a bunch of cross promotion, incentives, etc then transfer the tribalism many americans today feel about thier government to their corporation and it is very easy to see a large swath of people interacting primarily with one corporation. I knew quite a few people who were ridiculously loving of thier corporations during the 90's when they all expected to get rich from them. Sheesh talk to somebody who works at microsoft for years (not somebody who leaves, somebody who stays), it can get extreemly creepy.

I wrote a section for SOTA:2063 on health spells' applications into genetic engineering and bioware, as well as the engineering of certain Awakened traits, under the catch-all term "Magenics". This was stated as a push toward the more biotech(rather than cybertech, though not in exclusion of) friendly idea of post-Cyberpunk, which I think Shadowrun has a unique path towards, vis-a-vis its integration of magic and technology. I am a fan of certain cyberpunk authors' works, and the genre itself, but having read a few post-Cyberpunk novels, such as The Diamond Age and Transmetropolitan, and been very impressed, I am of the mind that Shadowrun has the means (see above) and the drive to evolve a bit into the post-Cyberpunk genre/era.

Cyberpunk was a product of the 1980's, a time when the Japanese were producing the absolute cutting edge of technology, Japanese corporations were overtaking markets where American interests had prior flourished, glass and chrome corporate culture was at an alltime peak, computer technology for the home user was a new and innovative concept, and biotechnology was a futuristic bogeyman that rarely made the headlines. Greed was good and the idea of genetically engineered or nanotech-augmented humanity had by and large not been considered. It turns out that the Japanese didn't take over the global economy, information systems integrated with, rather than mutating, culture and society, and cocaine-snorting men in five thousand dollar suits with cellphones the size of small cars ceased to be the apex of corporate haute couture. It was a different time, and a different mindset. Some of its predictions were true, others proved as vacuous as the idea that we'd all be in flying cars and living on the moon by the year 2000.

Post-cyberpunk is a more organic, yet equally fantastic and high-tech, vision of the future. There's still cyberware, because in the end metal just plain outperforms meat in certain fields. There is more emphasis on bioware, on genetech, and on nanotech. That this evolution, in Shadowrun, occurs simultaneous to the presence of magic, grants Shadowrun the opportunity that no other game has, insofar as evolving into a unique and intriguing Awakened post-Cyberpunk world. When I'm not attempting to get certain existing rules ratified for sanity's sake, I'm working on ideas along this thread. I'll probably continue attempting to submit my ideas for Magenics as opportunity arises. I think Shadowrun, like all other things, should be an evolving work-in-progress. Fantasy is eternal, based on cultural myth more than current culture, so D&D, while stable, is also less capable of any form of novel evolution. Shadowrun, on the other hand, has great evolutionary opportunity.

But that's just my opinion. I think it's a pretty solid one, but in the end it's most important that a game evolve in tune with the beliefs of its players, more than the beliefs of one crackpot writer, or one freelancer, or one production line manager.

Heh, it's the post-Cyberpunk theme and ideas, not the actual world, that I found inspiring in Transmet. I don't think anyone capable of making an RPG that simulated the world of Transmetropolitan would also be capable of being allowed to wander about unmedicated and unrestrained.

they let neal stephenson roam the streets...

Tell ya what you get bioware that you can make in a day,and then have it be stable,I will then say cyberware is gone.

But the facts simple, that once you get the resources to build cyberware, you can do so at speed and in numbers. Bioware on the other hand well.

Now as for a little trick, we live in a world with less care about other people. We live in areas where we do not know who lives next to us, or care what happens down the street. We live in a world where tens of people are killed each day. We do not blink. Yet we spend months of our times when a rich black guy, or some random white guy kills his wife? We live in a world that will have you pay for the honor of being a walking add and have you think it is cool.