 The Indestructable Leopard III, Call in the big guns... |
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 Feb 8 2005, 11:13 PM
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#1
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Resident Legionnaire  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550  |
I just got SOTA:2063 a week or two ago and just loved the mercenaries section. I was also very happy to see some new heavy hitters in the vehicle department, but one thing bothered me and I'm sure it has been discussed before but:
The Leopard III tank has an armor rating of 40! When I saw this, the first thing I did was to grab Rigger 3 and check out the AV weapons. The biggest non-naval weapon I could find was 20D (AV). Still just not quite enough to dent this puppy. Now, lets say one of my characters gets ahold of one of these (not gonna happen, but we'll say he does). How do I kill him without calling in the USS Missouri? They may as well just give the thing a Hull and Bulwark rating and make it easy on us, instead of having to convert naval to normal damage to kill it. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Feb 8 2005, 11:14 PM
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#2
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Guests |
I hear IEDs are good at disabling them.
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Feb 8 2005, 11:16 PM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It's a main battle tank. If someone gets ahold of one, they will be calling in the USS Missouri.
Edit: that being said, the FAQ says you can call a shot… ~J |
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Feb 8 2005, 11:22 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
While I don't have the SOTA 2063, and I'm not fully versed on vehicle rules, my first thoughts are that a vehicle is going to be somewhat vulnerable underneath. While a good mine or even a well made bomb may not take it out, it will probably at least make it non-movable. Then you've just got to crack that tin can. No matter how tough that vehicle is, though, the weakest link is always going to be the pilot and/or occupants. A powerful area effect spell could take care of that. Or, if it is a drone being controlled by a rigger, scramble the communication signal, or even worse, crack the signal and take control of it. There are plenty of ways to defeat something without having to use pure strength.
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Feb 8 2005, 11:23 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 6,025 |
Providing the Leopard is being shot with AV ammunition it still has to roll its body against damage and sucsesses.
A heavy pistol loaded with AV ammo fired by a smart-linked pistol adapt(skill 12) using all available combat pool(6) at point blank range will generate 15 sucsesses at light damage for the tank to stage down at a TN of 1. Then the adapt gets a second shot. Point being, it's not that hard to kill a vehicle with the proper weapons. |
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Feb 8 2005, 11:25 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,757 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
There are actually weapons with naval damage code which are not limited to naval vessels. The railgun in Rigger 3 are also used as standard armament on Main Battle Tanks (a 15MN heavy railgun on Leopard III, a 8MN medium one on Keiler A4).
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Feb 8 2005, 11:30 PM
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#7
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Ah... no. The Leopard still has 40 points of hardened armor. A 9m pistol against half it's armor is a power of -11. Since the armor is hardened the shot bounces, no roll is necessary, and sucesses are irrelevant. An AV weapon would have to have a base power of 21 or higher for the tank even to have to roll any dice to see if it was hurt. Any attack with a power less than a 21 AV or a 41 standard simply bounces off. Period. No roll necessary. |
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Feb 8 2005, 11:33 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
This is true,however (and you know there's always a however)...
This is impossible. No fraggin' way. I'll put it to you like this. In the Marine Corps, I was a gunner on an M1A1 Abrams MBT. I'm very familir with the vehicle, as well as most other AFV's, and know that there is no way in hell a pistol round can penetrate a tank. Nowhere. Hell, in Iraq we got hit with eveything from pistols, to machine guns, to RPG's, and still didn't even scratch the armor, maybe just chipped the paint. My point is, no matter who's shooting the pistol, with whatever type of ammo, it could not, and should not, penetrate the armor. It's ridiculous. It's a tank, after all. And I'm certain the tnks of the 2060's are way more advanced the the old dinosaurs I was crewing. |
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Feb 8 2005, 11:35 PM
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#9
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
It's okay Grifter, he is wrong, the attack bounces. The armor is hardened. ;)
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Feb 8 2005, 11:36 PM
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#10
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and thats compareable to real life. if you want to reliably take out a tank, you call in a tank of your own.
and the mine under the tank may work in rl, but in sr armor covers everything, includeing threads and turret, equaly well (want to stop a rl tank, aim for turret or threads). that is unless there is something in the advances rigger3 rules. i cant say i have read em... |
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Feb 8 2005, 11:37 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
Mines under the tank might take out the treads and provide a mobility kill, but not a total kill. Armor is way too tough for that.
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Feb 8 2005, 11:45 PM
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#12
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
but is sr it will either kill the tank outright or not affect its mobility at all...
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Feb 8 2005, 11:46 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
Boo, I say.
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Feb 8 2005, 11:46 PM
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#14
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
No published weapon except a naval damage weapon can do anything to this tank except the latter option. I think it's safe ;) |
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Feb 8 2005, 11:48 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
Awesome. If you're not safe in a tank, where CAN you be safe?
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Feb 8 2005, 11:49 PM
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#16
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
What is the minimum naval damage that will drop it? (No books at work...)
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Feb 8 2005, 11:56 PM
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#17
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Just Call Shot to bypass armour. Like Kage said... Armour? What armour?
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Feb 8 2005, 11:58 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
It's ok. Just wait for SotA:2065, and perhaps they'll introduce an adept power that lets Killing Hands treat hardened armor as regular armor, and then someone will build a Troll who can punch the tank to death.
:silly: |
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Feb 9 2005, 12:00 AM
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#19
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
82, not 41. ~J |
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Feb 9 2005, 12:03 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
Uh, as I understand it a lot of the tank crews in Iraq are really worried about RPGs. Anyone can use 'em and it'll crack a tank, that's why you see a lot of the tanks now with either cages or just extemporaneous junk attached to the outside of the tank so that the RPG won't detonate directly on the armor and crack it. As for a weapon of sufficient power, isn't there a sniper rifle with a 21D damage? A Barrette model 121 if my memory serves? Couldn't you just get it in an AV round and maybe pierce the armor that way? Also, all you need is someone to "paint" the tank and a sub or battleship can launch something to take it out. But that's beyond your average merc's resources. |
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Feb 9 2005, 12:06 AM
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#21
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,763 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Special Hell Member No.: 284 |
Barret 121 fires an APDS round that does 14D. It is not treated as AV.
RPGs will not penetrate the armor on a modern MBT, which is designed to defeat shaped charge warheads on anti-tank missiles as well as kinetic penetrators fired from other tanks. As others have stated, though, tank treads remain vulnerable to man-portable weapons systems. This will grant you a mobility kill, but will in no way eliminate the tank as a threat to your forces. |
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Feb 9 2005, 12:07 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
I only wish.... :rotfl: |
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Feb 9 2005, 12:07 AM
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#23
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
*nevermind
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Feb 9 2005, 12:07 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
How big would a mine be to achieve a successful chunky salsa effect? Figure from ½ to 1 meter between the ground and the underside of the tank. Are there any large enough?
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Feb 9 2005, 12:11 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
An AV mine. Or a bouncing Betty, although those are primarily anti-personell mines.
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