The Indestructable Leopard III

The Indestructable Leopard III, Call in the big guns...

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 04:01 PM Post #151
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Disclaimer: I'm not sure if drones that size can get up fast enough to have enough Power. You may have to use flying toasters. ~J

Lindt View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 04:01 PM Post #152
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105	blink blink holy.... wow.... thats FUNNY stuff. And T, when I said disable, I ment taking out its tracks. Your not wrecking a tank with LOX unless you have an air tanker full of it.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 04:38 PM Post #153
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	Yeah, its pretty stupid. Tiny drones flying at speed 70 can take out a tank, but missiles flying at speed 350 can't. Someone mentioned R3 rules, what is the change, and does it prevent this tactic?

Fortune

Feb 9 2005, 04:38 PM

Post #154

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (zephir)

IIRC wards can't be moved.

The Ward itself can't be moved from what it is erected on, but vehicles can be warded and they can then move. The Ward has to have specific parameters, but you could ward a shoe box and carry that box around with you.

Lindt View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 04:56 PM Post #155
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105	Just means you need to use 10 of then insted of 2. It scales damage levels with differance in body.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 04:59 PM Post #156
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	So its still crazy. If it ever comes up we'll house rule it somehow. Maybe the rammer's body rating has to be at least 1/2 the target's body rating to have any effect. Or maybe armor still counts but its halved. Or maybe just a bitch-slap followed by a "that won't work, dumbass!"

lodestar

Feb 9 2005, 05:02 PM

Post #157

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

QUOTE (grendel)

RPGs will not penetrate the armor on a modern MBT, which is designed to defeat shaped charge warheads on anti-tank missiles as well as kinetic penetrators fired from other tanks. As others have stated, though, tank treads remain vulnerable to man-portable weapons systems. This will grant you a mobility kill, but will in no way eliminate the tank as a threat to your forces.

This may be true of the older RPG-7 warheads, but not necessarily true of all RPGs. The PG-7V/VM rockets only penetrate around 300mm RHS at 90 degrees, comparable to an M72 LAW. The newer warheads (PG-7VL/VR) claim 600-750mm penetration, which has been proved sufficient to penetrate the side hull armor of M1A1s and to knock them out.

Several of the heavier personal anti-tank weapons have equal penetration but better terminal effect through armor -- I'm sure you've seen the pictures of the Abrams that was penetrated from the side with one of the newer PG-7 warheads and knocked out, but with only a 1" diameter hole and very limited damage to the interior. I would not be surprised if an AT-4 penetrated the side hull armor of some MBTs.

Of course, this balance has been drastically changed in SR, where personal anti-armor rocket weaponry is not a threat to any armored military vehicle, including the lightest of the APCs.

Also note: Light Naval Guns and Light Railguns do not penetrate the Leo III.

I believe there's been several M1s knocked out in Iraq by RPGs I know I saw footage of one, but I'll wager there's probably been a few others. The big fear is when they are deployed in urban areas is high deflection shots which are able to hit the rear deck armor from above.

But back to solving our SR problem...

If you don't have another tank or piece of arty or suitable Thor shot the best a light team of infantry (or Shadowrunners as the case may be ) is to score a mobility kill on such a vehicle. It can be accomplished by a variety of means. An earth elemental is a good tool - digging trenches or other pit traps. A water elemental can also be useful to make ground boggy hoping to get the vehicle stuck. All sorts of nature spirits should be able to accomplish a similar task.

Lastl I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the other possible means of destroying it - a big wad of plastique. Not for the faint of heart of course, but appropriatle applied to the hull one could assume a sufficient bit would do the trick. Just hope the tank doesn't have the anti-theft system that can electrify the hull... Which of course is the best way to ensure your PCs don't get a hold of one.

Kanada Ten

Feb 9 2005, 05:14 PM

Post #158

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE (kevyn668)

The seat cushions have 40 armor too, apparently, so why bother?

Replace the seat cushion.

Tarantula

Feb 9 2005, 05:41 PM

Post #159

Dragon

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (Tarantula @ Feb 9 2005, 10:38 AM)

Err, right. CMCs are always too expensive for me to bother with, and I almost never play sams... :P

CMCs don't apply to sams :P

The cutting-out-after-overload is a feature unique to CMCs among all the damage compensation types, probably to balance out the fact that some vehicles can dodge on ridiculously low TNs in the right hands.

Yeah, I meant damage compensation methods in general. As evidanced by my idiocy with them.

Another thing you could do, get a semi and load it with nitrous, and max out its top-speed as much as you can. Get a winch. Have small drone with an arm attach winch to tank, hit nitrous on semi and drag tank around making crash checks against everything.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 05:52 PM Post #160
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Another thing you could do is drive up in a Medium Transport and disgorge three tanks of your own. ~J

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 9 2005, 06:12 PM

Post #161

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Another thing you could do is drive up in a Medium Transport and disgorge three tanks of your own.

Only if you can crank the Load rating of that truck up to around 150-210 tons. And even if your GM goes by the FAQ ruling, he may just as well rule that the MBT is fairly large for its Body and thus that the Leo3 takes up 1620 CF. Realistically, 900-1100 CF should be about enough for a MBT.

Foreigner

Feb 9 2005, 06:15 PM

Post #162

Moving Target

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QUOTE

(lodestar)

...I'm surprised that no one else has mentioned the other possible means of destroying it--a big wad of plastique....

lodestar:

In the classic film BATTLE OF THE BULGE (1965), there was a scene in which that was depicted. As their foxhole was being overrun by a German King Tiger tank (actually, it was a U.S.-made M-47 Patton heavy tank owned by the Spanish Army, in German WWII colors--the same vehicles were used in PATTON five years later), two combat engineers (or demolitions experts, if they aren't the same thing :)), placed a pair of plastic explosive charges (possibly the contents of a standard military demolition pack) on the glacis plate (the underside of the tank's prow), crimped the chemical fuses (or armed the time pencils--the scene was rather brief), and RAN LIKE H***. Three seconds later, the tank blew up.

Another possibility would be to modify a Combat Drone to fire a Great Dragon ATGM. The U.S. military started doing that in Afghanistan a few years ago, by modifying RQ1-B "Predator" surveillance RPVs to carry and fire AGM-114 "Hellfire" laser-guided antitank missiles.

I recall reading somewhere that the U.S. military was experimenting with an air-dropped weapon, similar to the M-712 "Copperhead" laser-guided 155mm artillery projectile. The weapon was intended to be dropped by parachute. The idea was that it would hang in the air until its onboard sensors detected a vehicle passing under it, then would activate and fire its shaped-charge warhead (or depleted-uranium penetrator) straight down through the enemy tank's top armor, where it was thinnest.

Grifter, or one of the other folks who play SHADOWRUN and have real-life military experience, would probably know more about the latter two items than I would. (After all, I'm a civilian. :))

--Foreigner

kevyn668

Feb 9 2005, 06:18 PM

Post #163

Runner

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 9 2005, 08:40 AM)

QUOTE

QUOTE
Sabotage has to defeat the armor rating.
Forgot this one. Depends: If you're using a shaped charge or such, then yes it does. Unless, of course, you happen to know the tank will be manned and plant a bomb inside the seat cushions...

The seat cushions have 40 armor too, apparently, so why bother?

Gee, maybe because the crew doesn't?

~J

It has a crew now?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 06:22 PM Post #164
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Look into the center of the quotebox. "Unless, of course, you happen to know the tank will be manned"… AE: You have a point on the Load rating. The FAQ, while suggesting a surprisingly reasonable solution, is still not canon. ~J

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 9 2005, 06:23 PM

Post #165

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (Foreigner)

Another possibility would be to modify a Combat Drone to fire a Great Dragon ATGM.

You need a Naval weapon to get through the rating 40 vehicular armor of the Leopard III, ATGMs will not do.

You'd need 46.7kg of straight C-12 to damage the Leo3. It will be one seriously big wad of plastique indeed.

kevyn668 View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 06:23 PM Post #166
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375	Bah, since when have details mattered?

Foreigner View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 07:09 PM Post #167
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630	A.E.: Sorry about that. :( Although I have several sourcebooks, I haven't exactly memorized them--mainly because I don't want to get into a disagreement with my GM. Also, I was attempting to apply RL information to the topic of discussion. I wasn't certain that it would work, but I thought that tossing a few ideas into the mix might get some of the more experienced players thinking. --Foreigner

lodestar

Feb 9 2005, 08:27 PM

Post #168

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Feb 9 2005, 01:23 PM)

QUOTE (Foreigner)

Another possibility would be to modify a Combat Drone to fire a Great Dragon ATGM.

You need a Naval weapon to get through the rating 40 vehicular armor of the Leopard III, ATGMs will not do.

You'd need 46.7kg of straight C-12 to damage the Leo3. It will be one seriously big wad of plastique indeed.

I didn't say it would be easy... ;)

But who said anything about outright destroying? A significantly less amount would probably be enough to flip it on its side if placed on the underside. But more commonly it would probably be placed in a strategic spot like under the turret overhang between it and the chassis to blast the turret off. Really, a group of combat engineers should be able to take out a rogue tank without much problem. Even a lesser amount of C-12 should be enough to make the tank fall in a big hole or drop something heavy on it.

Now that being said, the best thing excepting another tank to stop a tank is some good airsupport - preferably in the form of an attack helo.

FlakJacket View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 09:16 PM Post #169
King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127	That or a Warthog, or Aztechnology Aguilar the 2060's version.

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 9 2005, 09:19 PM

Post #170

Great Dragon

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Foreigner: The principle is still sound, but you'll have to have a rather heavy UAV with Heavy Launch Controls, a Reinforced Missile Mount, and 2 SS-N-49 Sirocco missiles. Those do 20 Serious Naval, which means 80D (AV) + 18 boxes of Over-Damage against the Leopard III. But that basically means this approach is unusable for shadowrunners.

QUOTE (lodestar)

A significantly less amount would probably be enough to flip it on its side if placed on the underside.

You sure? I've seen videos and pictures of light APCs driving into anti-tank mines (with explosive charge weights in the 10-30kg range), and those do get slapped around quite a bit, but they also weigh around 1/4th that of an MBT.

QUOTE (lodestar)

But more commonly it would probably be placed in a strategic spot like under the turret overhang between it and the chassis to blast the turret off. Really, a group of combat engineers should be able to take out a rogue tank without much problem.

Just slapping the explosives on the tank and then running like hell doesn't sound very healthy, you can imagine climbing on the tank and working on top of it for an extended time before making your escape.

That'll really only be possible if the tank is completely unsupported and whoever is driving is not fully in control. But if that's the case, then placing explosive charges on the tank may indeed a worthwhile alternative if there aren't any powerful mages or heavy weaponry around.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 09:22 PM Post #171
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Aquilar is the attack helo, Halcón is the azzie ground-attack aircraft. And frankly the Halcón sucks, try this.

FlakJacket

Feb 9 2005, 10:30 PM

Post #172

King of the Hobos

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QUOTE (Foreigner)

I recall reading somewhere that the U.S. military was experimenting with an air-dropped weapon, similar to the M-712 "Copperhead" laser-guided 155mm artillery projectile. The weapon was intended to be dropped by parachute. The idea was that it would hang in the air until its onboard sensors detected a vehicle passing under it, then would activate and fire its shaped-charge warhead (or depleted-uranium penetrator) straight down through the enemy tank's top armor, where it was thinnest.

Sounds like something along the lines of the JSOW.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Aquilar is the attack helo, Halcón is the Azzie ground-attack aircraft. And frankly the Halcón sucks, try this.

Ack! You're right, it was the Halcón I was thinking of. :)

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 10:33 PM Post #173
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	the JSOW is neat. Tom Clancy isn't normally my favorite author, but i did like his description of the JSOW in Bear and Dragon (or whatever it was called).

Rock-Steady

Feb 9 2005, 10:57 PM

Post #174

Target

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QUOTE (Foreigner)

As their foxhole was being overrun by a German King Tiger tank (actually, it was a U.S.-made M-47 Patton heavy tank owned by the Spanish Army, in German WWII colors--the same vehicles were used in PATTON five years later)

Hehehe they always used that tank as german tigers. And i believed it that that where tigers till i saw real ones....

Crimson Jack

Feb 9 2005, 11:32 PM

Post #175

Running Target

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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 9 2005, 08:40 AM)

The seat cushions have 40 armor too, apparently, so why bother?

Replace the seat cushion.

The new softer seat cushion will turn into 40 armor as soon as they're bolted down to the tank... did you forget? ;)

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