 The Indestructable Leopard III, Call in the big guns... |
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 Feb 11 2005, 05:32 PM
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#201
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
very much so. but the chemical application isn't something i see happening during the battle--it's something you'd have to do ahead of time. i'm sure Cray74 can come up with some ideas.
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Feb 11 2005, 05:40 PM
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#202
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Does anyone know what the interaction of thermite and modern tank armor is like? Anhydrous hydrazine?
~J |
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Feb 11 2005, 05:45 PM
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#203
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
Okay.
How about immobilizing the beastie? Aren't there Elemental spells that can change the structure of earth? That is, turn solid ground into mud or something? As powerful as MBTs are, their size and weight are their weakest points. Put one in a situation where it can't maneuver, and you've won at least half the battle. A good example of this would be the experimental World War II German superheavy tank, code-named "Mouse". Here's a link: Lone Sentry: The German Mouse heavy tank "Maus" The beastie was so heavy that it would sink into ground that was the slightest bit wet. Also, the vibrations caused by its passage shattered cobblestones. And even with two 1,200-horsepower engines, its maximum cross-country speed was 12 MPH (19.3 KPH). --Foreigner |
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Feb 11 2005, 05:49 PM
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#204
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Aftermarket as a rigger I'd definately be adding amphibious operations package to the thing. Hell, it already has the lifesupport system, engine sealing and crew sealing isn't going to add that much. Besides, I don't have my books right now, but its off-road handling (muddy etc) is what? 4? 5? Not that hard for a rigger which firstly drops it be -3 (only vcr 3 riggers would be allowed to drive the thing, 7million off the factory and all) so now its a 2 or 3, and then they can dump as much dice as they want into it, only needed 1 success to succesfully keep going through it.
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Feb 11 2005, 06:24 PM
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#205
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The steel parts slowly, very slowly melt away, while the ceramic bits won't mind much. The AN-M14 TH3 incendiary grenade will only penetrate ½" RHS during the 40 seconds it burns, which basically means it will not penetrate any non-aluminum AFV's armor. It could possibly be used to inflict serious damage to some equipment on the vehicle, but that would not be a healthy thing to attempt in a combat zone. Thermite will work wonders on some of the slightly older APCs with aluminum armor plates, however. I bet you could crack open an M113A3 with the AN-M14. As for the Maus, well, some lessons were learnt from WW2. It is interesting to note how modern MBTs are lighter than King Tigers, provide up to 6 times as much protection as the Maus, and have several times the firepower (in terms of neutralization capability of enemy MBTs). Pitting WW2 tanks against modern ones, the fight would be very short and insanely one-sided. Pitting WW2 infantry against modern grunts, the latter would only have a slight edge -- mostly from communications. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 11 2005, 06:32 PM |
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Feb 11 2005, 06:41 PM
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#206
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If you were able to spread around very large quantities of the stuff, several kilograms worth, do you find it at all likely you could do meaningful damage? Several tens of kilograms?
~J |
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Feb 11 2005, 06:57 PM
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#207
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think thermite burns hot enough to really do any damage to the ceramic armor. however, the crew inside will probably notice a sharp rise in temperature.
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Feb 11 2005, 07:00 PM
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#208
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You'd destroy the optics and would stand a good chance of ruining the weapons, if you could cover most of the turret and front hull. If the tank has stopped, you could probably immobilize it -- with a moving tank, I wouldn't count on it. Actually destroying the vehicle would probably take a huge pool of thermite to dunk the tank in.
This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 11 2005, 07:03 PM |
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Feb 11 2005, 07:06 PM
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#209
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
How conductive, heat-wise, is the armor? I'm now wondering, similar to mfb's statement, if you could essentially force the crew out or raise the temperature above some of the internal equipment's maximum operating temperature, even if you didn't damage the actual structure of the tank meaningfully.
(Don't mind me, I'm just playing with ideas) ~J |
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Feb 11 2005, 07:10 PM
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#210
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The ceramic bits, not at all. The steel, not very. You'd cripple the tank completely before the temperature inside rose to unbearable levels. With 2060s life support and concerns of flame/incendiary weapons, it wouldn't surprise me if SR MBTs included effective cooling systems in the life support system. Not to mention that covering the tank with thermite or similar weapons would fuse shut all exits. |
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Feb 11 2005, 07:27 PM
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#211
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Hm. Mobility kill plus fusing the exits. I like this plan. Then you'd just have to keep meaningful support away for a little over two days, which might be harder.
~J |
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Feb 11 2005, 07:29 PM
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#212
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The problem is, how are you planning to apply the dozens of kilograms of thermite all over the quite hostile MBT?
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Feb 11 2005, 07:31 PM
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#213
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i was thinking catapults.
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Feb 11 2005, 07:42 PM
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#214
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Uh-huh...
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Feb 11 2005, 07:44 PM
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#215
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
You could talk to the scatter brains
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Feb 11 2005, 07:53 PM
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#216
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
a yacht-sized thermite pie, topped with whip cream? your idea has merit.
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Feb 11 2005, 08:01 PM
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#217
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Rotodrones with low Handling remotely operated by a Rigger with a VCR-3.
Though I like the pie idea better. ~J |
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Feb 11 2005, 08:04 PM
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#218
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 6-December 04 Member No.: 6,871 |
No one has mentioned Nanites yet? Delivered by mortar or artillery similar to a gas attack on the vehicle. They could eat the sensors, armor, chemical seals, etc. The tank might complete one mission. But it would have to spend some time in the shop afterwards.
Don't attack the tank directly. Attack its support crew, fuel transports, and ammo carriers. Without them the tank can't function as a long term threat. |
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Feb 11 2005, 08:07 PM
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#219
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
Isn't there a canonical Elemental spell called "Acid", "Acid Bomb", or something like that?
If so, what sort of acidic effects does it produce? What I was thinking was that, if it were possible to select a particular kind of acid--specifically, aqua regia. It's a combination of hydrochloric acid and nitric acid (the usual mixture is 3 or 4 parts hydrochloric acid to each part of nitric acid), originally used in the precious metal industry because it's one of the few chemical compounds that react with gold, silver, and platinum (and other members of the platinum family, such as rhodium and osmium)--the so-called "noble metals". It's less corrosive when cold, but when heated, it gets really nasty (and the more it's heated, the faster it works)--we're talking a substance that, given enough time, could dissolve its way through stainless steel. Just a thought. --Foreigner |
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Feb 11 2005, 08:17 PM
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#220
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Like all elemental manipulation spells, the secondary effects take effect only if you do reasonable damage with the spell. It's been said before, but it's worth saying again: you need a FORCE 41 MANIPULATION SPELL TO HAVE ANY EFFECT ON THIS THING. So no, Acid Bomb won't work well. I'm willing to bet Aqua Regia, "used for hundreds of years in the jewelry industry," is nowhere near an appropriate anti-tank weapon, hot or not. "Given enough time" seems to be a real hinderance when talking about modern armored warfare. Stick to the naval guns and strategic missiles, I'd say. |
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Feb 11 2005, 08:23 PM
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#221
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
Reg:
Point. :) I'm sorry, but I keep forgetting about the "Force 41" part of it. It isn't you folks--it's ME. I just have a lousy memory IRL. --Foreigner |
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Feb 11 2005, 08:34 PM
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#222
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
When an explosive reflects off of surfaces that it can't penetrate the target gets hit with a much damage code. This is not staging. This is the power of the attack. I paraphrased the book but the quote won't make much difference. Austere: as far as the bounce I wasn't counting the ground and back and assuming a clearance of 1 meter for math ease. The ponit was just to demostrate that it would eventually go through by cannon. Its silly but having shadowrunners anywhere near a Leopard tank I find to be equally silly. |
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Feb 11 2005, 08:45 PM
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#223
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
That would actuall work. I believe that there is a type of commercial nanite designed to destroy structures on the molecular level. A few quintillion of those, properly modified, could eat the entire tank. Of course, such nanites would require corporate or government connections and it would probably be simpiler to call in fire support from the most convenient Army, Navy, or Air Force. How about the potato-in-the-exaust-pipe method? Even if the crew compartment is completely sealed there must be an opening somewhere. An engine capable of moving something as heavy as a MBT will produce a good deal of waste heat, so there must be a radiator of some sort. There is certainly a fuel tank, as well. Depending on the engine there is also an exaust port to vent waste gases. A called shot to bypass armor isn't unreasonable; neither is jumping on the turret with a cutting laser and opening up the hatch. |
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Feb 11 2005, 09:05 PM
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#224
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm fairly certain that any such exhaust vents will be designed to be difficult to block. the fuel tank is going to be surrounded by some of heaviest portions of the tank's armor; if you can hit the fuel tank, you're already capable of killing the tank anyway. called shots to bypass armor shouldn't work very well, honestly. at best (house rule!), i might halve armor, or more likely multiply it by 0.75.
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Feb 11 2005, 09:09 PM
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#225
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 6-December 04 Member No.: 6,871 |
How much does the tank weight? What about just the turrent?
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