The Indestructable Leopard III

The Indestructable Leopard III, Call in the big guns...

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 09:11 PM Post #226
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	body 10, right? 60-100 tons, 75 tons average. no idea about the turret alone.

Tarantula

Feb 11 2005, 09:28 PM

Post #227

Dragon

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

QUOTE (algcs @ Feb 11 2005, 03:04 PM)

No one has mentioned Nanites yet? Delivered by mortar or artillery similar to a gas attack on the vehicle. They could eat the sensors, armor, chemical seals, etc. The tank might complete one mission. But it would have to spend some time in the shop afterwards.

Don't attack the tank directly. Attack its support crew, fuel transports, and ammo carriers. Without them the tank can't function as a long term threat.

That would actuall work. I believe that there is a type of commercial nanite designed to destroy structures on the molecular level. A few quintillion of those, properly modified, could eat the entire tank.

Of course, such nanites would require corporate or government connections and it would probably be simpiler to call in fire support from the most convenient Army, Navy, or Air Force.

How about the potato-in-the-exaust-pipe method? Even if the crew compartment is completely sealed there must be an opening somewhere. An engine capable of moving something as heavy as a MBT will produce a good deal of waste heat, so there must be a radiator of some sort. There is certainly a fuel tank, as well. Depending on the engine there is also an exaust port to vent waste gases.

A called shot to bypass armor isn't unreasonable; neither is jumping on the turret with a cutting laser and opening up the hatch.

Actually, if you use the nanites "smart corrosives" with acids from M&M you could do it. It'd have to be rating 20 to pass the barrier 20 armor (or whatever the equivilant barrier of the armor is). It'd have a rating of that #, and cost of 500xthat #.

It would eat through at a rate of rating per combat turn, so thats your ticket through.

Apathy View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 09:49 PM Post #228
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046	I don't have my books with me, so I might have mis-remembered this, but don't toxic elementals with the sludge engulf power have the ability to degrade armor? If I remember it correctly, it didn't have to test against the armor rating of the vehicle. Can anyone confirm/correct this?

Foreigner View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 09:53 PM Post #229
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630	Tarantula: Hmm. Sounds like you're on the right track.... :) (Please excuse the pun. ;)) I realize, from reading others' earlier posts, that the Leopard III is all but invulnerable to conventional attack (barring something on the order of a Special Atomic Demolition Munition (SADM), such as a "suitcase nuke" or atomic land mine), but what about attacking the CREW? After all, the weakest point of any non-autonomous weapons system is/are the operator(s). How about a series of targeted spells directed at the crew, rather than at the tank itself? I'm not clear on whether magical protections on a vehicle (barring wards, that is) would have any effect on the crew, if they were targeted specifically, rather than using a localized spell intended to effect both the crew and the tank. A Chaos spell, or something similar, would be rather effective, I think. Same with some illusion spells, such as Trid Phantasm. Or possibly a combined Silence and Darkness spell (sensory deprivation, anyone? :P ) As I've said before, though; I'm still a bit of a newbie, so please excuse me if I inadvertently step on any toes. :) --Foreigner This post has been edited by Foreigner: Feb 11 2005, 09:56 PM

Req View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 10:01 PM Post #230
Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277	Can't target the crew if you can't see 'em. Tinted windows are enough protection, so I'm willing to bet 20 points of composite armor works as well. If you can convince the crew to get out of the tank, or let a mage get into the tank, then you could do it - but if you can do that, you don't need the mage, just a grenade. 8)

Foreigner View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 10:23 PM Post #231
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630	Reg: Gotcha. Something else I forgot. :( Could a mage using Ultrasound goggles do it, though? --Foreigner

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 10:25 PM Post #232
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Nope. For that matter, a mage wearing ultrasound goggles couldn't target someone standing right in front of him or her. ~J

Foreigner View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 10:28 PM Post #233
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630	Oh, DREK! Another great plan ruined by harsh reality.... :P --Foreigner

Tarantula View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 10:29 PM Post #234
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Well, chaotic world might work, briefly, considering the tank's top speed is almost 70mph. (110kph or so). Trid phantasm might make the rigger attempt some risky maneuvers if he thought he was going to crash into something like a great dragon or somesuch. Silence and darkness won't really bother any of the riggers, (i say riggers, because the tank has 2 turrets, crew of 3, 1 drives, 1 guns main gun, 1 guns other gun) and you'd best hope you're not within 20km as thats its sensor range (unless it decides to boost it with flux).

Tanka

Feb 11 2005, 10:31 PM

Post #235

Chrome to the Core

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QUOTE (RunnerPaul)

It's ok. Just wait for SotA:2065, and perhaps they'll introduce an adept power that lets Killing Hands treat hardened armor as regular armor, and then someone will build a Troll who can punch the tank to death.
:silly:

And if this does pop up, I will personally hunt the author down and beat him/her senseless. Repeatedly.

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 11 2005, 11:30 PM

Post #236

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (mfb)

i'm fairly certain that any such exhaust vents will be designed to be difficult to block.

Absolutely. The exhausts vents are usually spread over a rather large area, and these days they are sometimes shielded (and will certainly be by the 2060s). Blocking them would require some kind of custom-built heat-resistant plate with heavy-duty adhesives that you'd have to attach over the exhaust area(s). And, again, you'd have to work on/around the tank for an extended period on the battlefield, make your escape, and then wait for quite some time before the engines go offline.

QUOTE (Foreigner)

I realize, from reading others' earlier posts, that the Leopard III is all but invulnerable to conventional attack (barring something on the order of a Special Atomic Demolition Munition (SADM), such as a "suitcase nuke" or atomic land mine)

You can penetrate the 40 points of vehicle armor with Medium Naval and Rail Guns or heavier weapons, or with any of the heavy Surface-to-Surface or Air-to-Surface missiles found in Rigger 3. Although you're about as likely to find such weapons employed by a team of runners as you are to find suitcase nukes.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 11 2005, 11:33 PM

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Feb 12 2005, 01:15 AM Post #237
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Well, I was thinking more of hitting the exaust vent with a couple of AV Assault Cannon shells than blocking it. If I remember correctly, there was a big news story about combat engineers finding a way to armor the M1A1's exaust vent. A vent has to be hollow and the grating can't be very thick. It would be the most vulnerable part of any tank. It probably wouldn't hurt the crew, but it would certainly compromise engine preformance. Chaotic World wouldn't work on the crew because it is a direct illusion. LOS would still be required. However, Chaos and its area varient are physical spells. Tank sensors probably don't hae an OR higher than 12 so a mage casting force 6 Chaos can reasonably mess them up.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 12 2005, 01:26 AM Post #238
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	you can't target subcomponents with magic. you have to hit the whole tank, or nothing at all.

Kanada Ten

Feb 12 2005, 01:28 AM

Post #239

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE (mfb)

you can't target subcomponents with magic. you have to hit the whole tank, or nothing at all.

Though we could argue that about Elemental Manipulations since they follow all the standard rules for Ranged Combat, which allows for Called Shots to subcomponents on vehicle sized objects.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 12 2005, 01:31 AM Post #240
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	mmm... i'd point out the fact that such isn't mentioned in the Elemental Manipulation Spells section, in the Vehicles and Drones chapter, and say that's proof enough that called shots against vehicles don't work with elemental manips. there's room for argument, though; it never specifically disallows it.

Tarantula View Member Profile	Feb 12 2005, 01:35 AM Post #241
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Actually, it does, as it specifies external components. Considering the engine is envirosealed so that it will operate perfectly even if say, it was entirely submerged, (doesn't have amphibious, so it couldnt' go anywhere, but the engine would run) one could argue that it doesn't have a conventional external exhaust pipe. No pipe, no called shot to it. Besides which, you'd have to overcome that lovely force 41 to affect it in the least with an elemental manip.

hyzmarca

Feb 12 2005, 01:46 AM

Post #242

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QUOTE (mfb)

you can't target subcomponents with magic. you have to hit the whole tank, or nothing at all.

Rereading the rules, the Choas spell would only have to be force 4. There is just the small matter of a 28 TN to contend with.

Kagetenshi

Feb 12 2005, 04:23 AM

Post #243

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Chaotic World wouldn't work on the crew because it is a direct illusion. LOS would still be required. However, Chaos and its area varient are physical spells.

Er… Chaotic World is the area-effect variant.

~J

Weredigo View Member Profile	Feb 12 2005, 07:27 AM Post #244
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 28-January 05 From: Phoenix, Arizona Member No.: 7,030	Frosty I have asked myself pretty much same question, What do I need on the board that can hurt anything, but will also leave cities and innocent (or not) civilians intact, and came up with the Answer. Orbital Laser Platforms. but please do take precautions and make it oh so difficult to deck into these things. Shadowrun Novel, ShadowPlay describes the Germeinschafft bank as being located at LEO, They and they alone should have the ability to utilize these weapons of not massive but definitive destruction, for a price. If I were you I'd allow the Players plenty of Play time with the Toy if they do happen to acquire one. After you think they've caused enough destruction, send warning shots, if they don't get the hint you can still take the toy out without killing the whole party, though they may lose one or two members.

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 12 2005, 11:28 AM

Post #245

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Well, I was thinking more of hitting the exaust vent with a couple of AV Assault Cannon shells than blocking it. If I remember correctly, there was a big news story about combat engineers finding a way to armor the M1A1's exaust vent.
A vent has to be hollow and the grating can't be very thick. It would be the most vulnerable part of any tank. It probably wouldn't hurt the crew, but it would certainly compromise engine preformance.

Yup, the plating you see on some modern MBT (like the newest Merkavas) exhausts are not likely to be thicker than, I dunno, 1"? And if you managed to get a surprise shot at such a tank from a rear-flank angle, you could bypass the plating. In that situation, you might manage to get an AV Assault Cannon shot through the exhaust vent grating.

What you'd actually hit after that is a good question. On many designs, a straight line through the exhaust vent would continue into top or side armor, not into the engine compartment. To guarantee damage to the engine, you'd have to use a rather heavy HEAT warhead.

This problem can probably be solved adequately in the design phase of a future MBT. The actual exhaust vent can be shielded, placed along the top or rear armor plate (if on the side or back) or the side armor plate (if in the back), so that a straight line in from the exhaust vents would never end up in the engine comparments. The vents could have double shielding, on the outside and then behind a corner in the exhaust "pipe" -- the inner shields would pop up immediately if the outer shields or vent edges are hit. Or new technology could simply allow for a way to vent exhausts which require no conventional vent or pipe system, as Tarantula suggested.

In other words, I definitely wouldn't count on this method for neutralizing a 2060s MBT.

Starfurie View Member Profile	Feb 13 2005, 04:53 PM Post #246
Target Group: Members Posts: 82 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,544	Ahhh, to kill a tank. :cyber: :D Going back to the original post for a second, I have to ask, where would the rigger get it? If at the factory, congrats him on his new paperweight. Wouldn't have fuel or ammo. If at an army base, I look at you stupid and go "What? Was that their only one?" There's at least 13 other tanks in the company to shoot at him. But as for actually killing it: Mud and/or Shape Earth for the mobility kill, then wait. Sooner or later the crew will have to come out, then snipe them. The tank as formidable weapons, as long as the engine has fuel. If you want to be cruel, use Shape Earth to dig the tank into the ground and cover it back over. Eventually the life support will run out. (Sabotage thought: Seven-7 in the life-support tanks.) For those who want to talk about the tanks back-ups, those aren't A tank, those are an army. Hire MET2000 and leave.

Ed Simons View Member Profile	Feb 13 2005, 07:00 PM Post #247
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348	I think a Fire Elemental materializing inside the tank would make life a bit unpleasant for the crew. :D Or a spirit with the Accident power could make life difficult in the right terrain. Armor doesn't help in Crash Tests.

Starfurie View Member Profile	Feb 13 2005, 07:33 PM Post #248
Target Group: Members Posts: 82 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,544	Acording to this article from Armor magazine, you can get a mobility kill on an Abrams with a 2.2 kilo block of C4.

BitBasher

Feb 13 2005, 11:33 PM

Post #249

Traumatizing players since 1992

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QUOTE (Starfurie)

Acording to this article from Armor magazine, you can get a mobility kill on an Abrams with a 2.2 kilo block of C4.

If you happen to be carrying around 5.2 pounds of c-4 AND can get up to it to plant it on the treads them merry christmas. I wouldn't want to try to waltz inside the tank's APZ personally.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 13 2005, 11:38 PM Post #250
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	i like the anti-personnel tank protection systems described in David Drake's tank warfare stories. basically, you ring the entire tank with proximity-fuse claymore mines at about chest level. they could even be reloaded from an internal magazine.

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