 The Indestructable Leopard III, Call in the big guns... |
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 Feb 9 2005, 02:18 AM
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#51
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957  |
IMO they shouldn't have anything that can stop that kind of juggernaut. Either wards stop elementals coming from metaplanes, or the tank itself has several gaurdian elementals waiting in astral space to beat up any elemental that appears.
There should be some things on the planet that no shadowrunner can take out with mere firepower alone. Scary ass tanks from the year 2064 should be in that category. |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:20 AM
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#52
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
one tank they may be able to stop, but good lock stoping a whole formation :P
even more so properly backed up by air, magic and artillery... sometimes a problem is so big you need the army to solve it:silly: |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:22 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
A strong magician can crack a ward. As for the FabIII, wouldn't a...man I can't forget the actual spell name...Sterilize, maybe? But it basically sterilizes all living trace matters in an area, to head off any DNA evidence left, wouldn't that possibly also effect the FABIII, which is a bacteria? A magical one, but a bacteria nonetheless, would it then come down to straight power of the FABIII vs. the force of the spell? I don't have the rules for FABIII handy.
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Feb 9 2005, 02:24 AM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
So, you're saying that no matter what your group came up with, there's no way to stop a tank? That seems a bit strange to me, but you're the one ruling on that one for your own game. :) Take out a bridge that it's crossing or have a large elemental engulf it in water. Points being that there's always an Achille's Heel to everything juggernaut-ish. I suppose that its ultimately up to you, but when players start using their noggins to get through seemingly impossible scenarios, I applaud that. I don't see the point in making unstoppable elements in a game, unless you just want to kill your players off or railroad them in a game. Am I missing something here? |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:24 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
How about trying a called shot with a Panther Assault Cannon loaded with HE ammunition?
Fired straight up the bore of the main gun, that is. The idea, of course, is to detonate the shell loaded into the gun. Difficult, but not impossible. During the American Civil War, several of U.S. Army COL. Hiram Berdan's Sharpshooters blew up a muzzle-loading Confederate cannon by firing at the sand bags placed around its muzzle. After fifteen or so hits on the sand bags (for some reason, the Confederate artillerymen didn't realize what Berdan's men were up to), the cannon blew up, taking most of the crew with it when the powder bags were ignited by hot shrapnel. Of course, there's another option: An old military axiom tells us that: The BEST defense against a tank is ANOTHER tank. ;) --Foreigner |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:25 AM
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#56
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i think sterilize is listed as a way to remove them yes. but to cast that inside a tank you would need to get a nice view of its insides...
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Feb 9 2005, 02:26 AM
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#57
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
And no more X-ray spell. :D |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:28 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
Could you just go astral until you see the FAB and cast your spell? Can you target the FAB directly that way? If so, then send in the elementals. Or cast an AOE spell once you're back at your meat body. |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:31 AM
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#59
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Sterilize is a physical spell, though manaball would work. I highly doubt the military would use FAB3 in an uncontrolled environment. It's just dumb. Sure, a mage or elemental can fight the ward, but that takes time and alerts the crew to an astral attack: "Roger Delta 1, you have astral boogie. Authorized use of mage bomb, over." At which point the gunner reaches over and pulls the yellow level that casts an astral touch version of manabolt, nuking every astral entity touching the tank.
Even if you recreated X-Ray Vision, by the rules (even of second edition, Awakenings was wrong), one cannot use magic to enhance LOS. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Feb 9 2005, 02:36 AM |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:40 AM
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#60
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
No, I said "with mere firepower alone." Intelligent tactics may be able to find a way to hurt it, but they'll have to be more original than "send an elemental into it". Given how much it gets bandied about, you have to expect any armored vehicle worth its pricetag to also have some sort of defense against something so common. |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:47 AM
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#61
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I'll say it. I don't think there's any possible way any players in any of my games could hurt the damn tank.
This is because they would have to be freaking stupid and suicidal to face a tank in the first palce. Want to survive an encounter with an MBT? Avoid it! The PC's should absolutely not be able to accomplish anything no matter how silly just by the virtue that they are PC's. |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:49 AM
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#62
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
What about ordering a high-powered earth elemental to open up a trench underneath it? Is that intelligent enough or even possible?
I am way rusty on elementals and stuff. That last time one of my players used a spirit it was the 90's. |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:54 AM
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#63
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Earth Elementals don't have the Shape Earth power last I checked, but it could dig a hole... after materializing, in a few minutes...
The best bets are the Movement power, Illusions spells, and Nature Spirits using Confusion and Concealment. |
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Feb 9 2005, 02:55 AM
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#64
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
hmmmmm, what about great form earth elementals?
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Feb 9 2005, 03:04 AM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
BB: Unless the point of the run is to do exactly what you'd be avoiding in your scenario. Let's assume that the point is to destroy the tank, as the original post's idea taints us with. --- Yes, firepower alone isn't enough to do jack to it, unless of course one understands that "firepower" also includes mojo power. The idea that there are elementals on standby to attack elementals that are trying to get inside of the tank is better than not allowing them entry at all. Saying that they can't appear where they are commanded to is a house rule, not a canon rule. Also, I'm no tank expert, but these things aren't hermetically sealed are they? Is there ever an opening from the bore to the interior at any point, say for gas or chemical attacks to be introduced? |
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Feb 9 2005, 03:07 AM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
What about white phosphorus or acid, couldn't that weaken the armor enough to eventually allow something like a Panther Cannon to get in?
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Feb 9 2005, 03:10 AM
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#67
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
That's a tall order, but I think armor degradation rules (which I've never looked at but still insist upon referencing, hah! I'm so lame :indifferent: ) would have to come into play during a long engagement.
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Feb 9 2005, 03:14 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
Standard procedure for modern tanks is to seal them as much as possible, the pressurise the inside to slightly above one atmosphere, so the only diffusion taking place is gas leaving the tank. Currently air is filtered, but by 2060 I expect they have air regeneration systems they turn on before going into combat to turn it into a completely closed system. |
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Feb 9 2005, 03:16 AM
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#69
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Which brings up what mercenaries really have to watch out from shadowrunners: sabotage. I'm almost amazed at people running head-on against a tank with nothing more than an elemental and a panther cannon. Sneaking into an enemy camp and planting charges on the tanks and equipment to detonate during battle is more the way to go. |
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Feb 9 2005, 03:22 AM
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#70
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Opps?! Hahahahahahahahaha!!!! That's actually funny... Read Frosty's first post. He asked a specific question regarding a PC getting his hands on the thing. My solution is perfiectly viable. Since no one can produce a canon refernce to these things having FAB or Wards the elemental works just fine. Edit: just in case no one got it, the elemental kills the people not the tank. |
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Feb 9 2005, 03:24 AM
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#71
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Can you find a single canon reference of elementals attacking [the crew inside an active] tank? IE, my response was equally valid.
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Feb 9 2005, 03:28 AM
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#72
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Unless you can provide a rule that says they typically don't then that makes it GM's provence either way. :) I don't think the issue is addressed at all.
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Feb 9 2005, 03:28 AM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
As are nice, juicy bribes and some judicous blackmail. |
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Feb 9 2005, 03:28 AM
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#74
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Urm...Why do I have to? He asked an abstract question about how to kill one of these if a PC got his hands on one. But I believe there were elementals used against tanks in the canon description of when the TT bushwacked Cal-Free (or was it the other way around?). Something about Hestaby... This post has been edited by kevyn668: Feb 9 2005, 03:29 AM |
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Feb 9 2005, 03:30 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
I thought I remembered this: Fields of fire, the page that talks about the Great Dragon ATGM. Matador (RIP) comments that
In short, insanely tough vehicles are the norm. The standards of today get tossed out the window in 2034. MBT's should, by cannon, be Indestructable to small arms. Yeah, Hestaby can summon spirits that can batter down any ward a mere human can put up. Or a powerful human mage could make an astral smack pack and hope to get lucky Can a bushmaster AC hurt an Abrams? 'Cause I've always thought of an assault cannon of being a single-shot man-portable version. |
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