 High initiative vs. Multiple opponents, a house rule... |
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 Feb 15 2005, 07:29 PM
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#26
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Mr. Johnson  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014  |
It depends on what merit badges the Girl Scout pack has...
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Feb 15 2005, 07:36 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Get enough people fighting at once, even if one is a master and the others have just had a half-serious batch of training in self-defence, and eventually the law of averages will catch up. You reach a point where you have 5 people attacking you at once, and you very well might stop three of the attacks, and take a fourth somewhere that it won't hurt.. but that still leaves a fifth. Two on one fighting is HARD, and it should be hard. You have to pay attention to two people at once, keep them from getting around so that you can only see one at a time, keep from opening up your defences against one while you attack the other. It just gets harder with every subsequent opponent. Five on one fighting? You pretty well HAVE to open up to attack. So, I would say if a half dozen girl scouts CAN'T take out someone that (that doesn't shrug off every single hit like it's nothing, such as a 12 body troll or whatever..) then the rules are broken. It shouldn't be easy, or fast, or certain, but it should be possible, and even probable depending on the someone. |
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Feb 15 2005, 07:38 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
uh, okay. i admit, my experience in booting girl scouts in the gut is pretty limited, but that's ridiculous. there's no way five girl scouts with two weeks of karate classes should be able to take down a healthy, untrained adult in a fair fight, much less an athletic adult with years of unarmed combat experience.
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Feb 15 2005, 07:39 PM
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#29
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Somehow, this example reminds me of the game/comics "Lunch Money".
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Feb 15 2005, 07:47 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
He's winning, but they've got him surrounded. He attacks one, throws a punch, she goes down, but he's overextended and one slams into his back. He's on the ground, she's fallen on him. The rest kick him a few times, and one lands a lucky shot to the throat, or the nose, or the bottom ribs, or solar plexus, or any of the other spots which are debilitating to hit. And keep doing it. Besides, two or three karate classes makes a massive difference. The most important lesson is the first... 'how not to break your hand hitting something'. After that it's just how to block, a bunch of different techniques, and experience. The last is a big one, but not the be-all-end-all. I've seen a lot of black belts with many, many years experience get laid out by an accidental shot from a beginner.. in one on one fights. |
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Feb 15 2005, 07:51 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
Just so we're clear, girl scouts can be between the ages of 9-14.... If it truly was 5 vs. 1 in real life I do think they could pull a grown man down to the ground IF they actually do act in unision. If they don't, the man will be able to beat them off and presumbably run away. So it comes down to the maturity/level of professionalism of the scouts in question. Have they learned to work well as a team? Is their troop leader or scout master present? That's a GM's call to make and it directly effects the parameters as well as the outcome of the fight. Yeah, I think it would take Bruce Lee/magic powers to fight off 5 co-ordinated opponents. Then again, according to one Japanese philosopher, an expert with the katana could potentially take on 10 opponents and not fail. But again, he's talking about a true expert... I stand by what I said, the adept in the example stands a better chance by the rules than what he's given by the author in any case. The rules violation at the beginning fatally flaws the example. The adept is going to take the little girl out in the first round, as for the rest of them, they're down one friend in melee already and I just bet that even strawman adept could take at lest one more out in the rest of the combat turn before he even had to RESIST damage and most likely he'll have wounded some of the others. Then again, if I was playing the adept I would probably resist the urge to dump ALL the CP in at one time... . I'm convinced that the girl scouts do have the advantage. It really is a toss up as to what the result will be. The possibilities are reflected in the probabilities IMHO, that's why we roll dice. Otherwise, the game is just one long narration game between the GM and the players. |
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Feb 15 2005, 07:53 PM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
there's no way, in real life or in SR, that a girl scout with 2 str and karate 1 is going to knock down anybody with a body of 3+. in SR, even if they use the knockdown attack option, that's still only TN 4, and you only need one success to keep from going down. in real life, unless the man is a total spaz, there's no way a 12-yo girl is going to knock him down if he's expecting a fight.
key word there: accidental. these girl scouts can do it on purpose, and they can do it just about every time. |
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Feb 15 2005, 07:56 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I personally don't like the penalty for facing multiple opponents. There are two things you do when facing more than one person at a time:
1) Explode outward in an attempt to hit as many oppoents in short period of time that you can. These attacks are nasty things like chops to the throat, inverting knees, eye rakes, etc. Your priority is to get out of being surrounded. 2) Position yourself and opponents so don't face more than one at a time. This is the ideal situation because you can better control over your opponents. The goal here is not get surrounded and if that happens see #1. The obvious is not to get surrounded, but facing more than one oppoent just means you need to hurt them fast and change the situation from #1 to #2. Standing in the middle of 6 attackers is not a good idea. I can see what SR is doing with the multiple opponent penalty due to the abstract nature of melee combat in SR, but for a more detailed and realistic system, I'd remove it. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:00 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
karate 1 != coordinated attacks. they know how to throw a proper punch, count to ten in japanese, and bow. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:01 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Takes maybe 5-10 pounds of pressure to knock someone over if they're standing wrong for it. Less if you're in an extremely bad stance.. and most stances are good against some directions, not all. If you're fighting 5 people at once, the odds are that you're going to have at least one opponent who is attacking you from the wrong angle for your stance to do any good. The stances that do offer a lot of protection from getting knocked over have their own problems. Namely, they're wide, long stances typically, which means you have to spend extra time guarding against low blows. Shorter, narrower stances aren't as stable, so you get hit, you're more likely to go down. Maybe not easily, but it's far more likely. You get this in martial arts.. they put you in a stance, and if it's not done properly, they push at your head with one finger.. and you almost fall. Or push your shoulder and hold on so you don't fall. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:01 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
I can see what Grinder is saying, but...
The SR system simply reflects what happens when you FAIL to take his suggestions on how to get out of the situiation in question. If you can break out of the Multiple Enemies in melee situation, you can choose between running away or taking out one of those enemies one on one until the next set of initiative passes. ----- Edit for MFB You really don't need to be a martial arts expert to figure out whether or not surrounding and individual opponent is a good idea, do you? |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:03 PM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
except that a guy with 6 points in any unarmed combat skill is almost never going to be standing wrong if he knows he's in a fight. karate 1 is not enough to take advantage of someone else's bad stance--hell, at karate 1, you've still yet to master your own stances.
edit: just because surrounding your opponent is a good idea doesn't mean that a bunch of girl scouts will be able to execute such a manuever properly against a man who's trained in hand-to-hand combat. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:09 PM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Which shows the limitations in the current melee system. We are trying to add more detail than it was intended to address. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:11 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
That's just it though... it's VERY hard to be in the right stance to stay up relatively easily from 4-5 different directions. It's possible, but it's not easy. In fact, it's fairly hard. Most stances are aimed at being good for front/back side/side. They aren't great for angles. Basically, to figure out what angle a stance is bad for, draw a line between your feet. Anything at a right angle, your stance is weak against. If you have no line, then your stance is weak against ALL angles (because your feet are side by side or you're standing on one foot.. sometimes it has combat benefits, but not when you are against more than one person. You're asking to be hit from behind). Karate 1 you haven't mastered stances. But you don't need to have in this particular application. It's 5 on 1. The odds are quite good that one of the girl scouts is coming from the right angle to make staying upright a problem. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:12 PM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'd argue that fighting kids is not a matter of detail. more one of taste.
Dawnstar, that assumes that the man is just going to sit there and watch them come. what kind of idiot is going to let himself be surrounded like that? it's not like it'd be much of a challenge to boot one of the girls in the head, then hop out of their little ring of doom through the gap he just created. wash, rinse, repeat: five girl scouts who now need medical attention. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:14 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
Forget Karate 1, forget Strength 2.
The little girls whose friend got pimp slapped by a stupidly constructed adept find their inner bitch, get an adrenaline rush, surround him, and kick the living shit out of him. Lone Star arrives, clears the girls away, and pistol whips the stupid freak to death as an example to others. In a surprise to everyone in Seattle, ORC and MOM actually endorse this policy. End of story. :P |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:15 PM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Grinder: wouldn';t you always want to end a fight as quickly as possible? I know I do. If I'm fighting someone I'm not going to play around with attacks that are not eye gouges, groin kicks, throat shots, etc.
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Feb 15 2005, 08:21 PM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Yeap. My point being, the emphasis on getting out of being surrounded my more than one opponent where you have more options aside from just being surrounded. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:25 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Mmhmm. Looks like the options in use is one of the martial arts manouvers (which the initial example which everyone seems to have been working from, are lacking -- which makes me think that the combat-adept knows brawling with no manouvers) |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:27 PM
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#45
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you really shouldn't need maneuvers to kick 12-yo tail.
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Feb 15 2005, 08:37 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 6-December 04 Member No.: 6,871 |
Funny topic. I coach a soccer team with 5 teen girls on it that also do/did girl scouts together. They are 13-15 so a little older than the usual age of scouts. A few of them do karate.
It wouldn't be a contest if we fought. I would stomp them like the girl scouts they are. If I had my glasses on it would be a ugly fight but I'd still walk away. And all my melee train comes from kicking my brothers around years ago. If it were the boys it would be a different story. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:37 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
It seems like you're operating on the assumption that the number of people you're fighting is a very minor thing, when all is said and done. That's not a good assumption to make. One on one, the adept should win. Every time. Even one after another. No question.. but all at once, then it's up in the air. He might win -- it's not easy or certain. How many martial arts do you even train against fighting multiple opponents? I know that when I was learning them, you didn't until you were within a few ranks of black belt, and that was only in the one club, not in the others I trained later in. And 2 on 1, well, I watched some people training like that. The 1, well, he was better than the other two, but the fight was even. He was about the same size and so on as well. So, we're dealing with 5 smaller, far less experienced people. Realistically, Karate 1 is one class. Karate 2 is knowing a little bit about it.. a couple weeks of training. So, you've got people that are smaller, with 1/3 the skill. I would say that 5 on 1 would put it at about even, with an advantage to the adept for taking blows, and for the potential presence of manouvers. |
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Feb 15 2005, 08:50 PM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Remove the combat penalty for multiple opponents and it's a completely different fight.
I've also toyed with the idea of difference in skill affecting your TN vs. an opponent. I know folks don't like the idea, but there should be no case of Girl Scouts vs. PhysAd at all, period. |
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Feb 15 2005, 09:00 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
Dammit, how is MOM going to rule the 6th world if they don't have their legions of Cyber-Ninja-Martial Arts Masters (aka Girl Scouts) to kick the tail of a poor, defenseless, evil physads? Who will sell cookies in the Barrens? Who will they find to wear those ugly uniforms? How can they train up their daughters without such and organization? :cyber: :twirl: 8) |
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Feb 15 2005, 09:18 PM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no, i'm not. you're overestimating the combat ability of a 12-yo girl who's had, at most, two weeks of karate classes. against five other grown men, yes, the adept should lose. against five girl scouts, it shouldn't even be a contest. |
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