Most of us have read the girl scouts vs. killer adept example, showing how anybody will lose against a full complement of melee opponents, almost regardless of skill or physical attributes. In addition to that, most of us have read the relatively common threads on how intiative has an unnecessarily low impact on melee combat.
Maybe the two have a place together. Surely someone who was really on the ball intitative-wise would have some advantage against a group of assailants. Does this sound like a viable concept, has anybody house-ruled this, or could anybody suggest viable mechanics to demonstrate this?
Full Version: High initiative vs. Multiple opponents
At the moment, I'm seeing how it goes by dividing the friends in combat modifier by two.
I've not read the Girl Scout example, but couldn't a Adpet centre away the penalties for multiple oppnents and beat 7 kinds of brick dust out of the little girls?
| QUOTE (GentlemanLoser) |
| I've not read the Girl Scout example, but couldn't a Adpet centre away the penalties for multiple oppnents and beat 7 kinds of brick dust out of the little girls? |
Or here's a quick house rule that has just occured to me. (again, not sanity tested)
Have a defender gain a cumulative TN penalty (+1?) for each counterattack roll they make on passes they can't act in.
Edit: Another thought. Maybe the multiple opponent penalty shouldn't been applied unless your multiple opponents are trained at attacking a target as a team and/or delay thier attacks until they all attack on the same initiatve score.
A group of kids attacking one after another isn't that scary.
But a group of kids working as a team to take you down is...
Have a defender gain a cumulative TN penalty (+1?) for each counterattack roll they make on passes they can't act in.
Edit: Another thought. Maybe the multiple opponent penalty shouldn't been applied unless your multiple opponents are trained at attacking a target as a team and/or delay thier attacks until they all attack on the same initiatve score.
A group of kids attacking one after another isn't that scary.
But a group of kids working as a team to take you down is...
That +1 TN / combat phaze with no actions sounds quite good. The slower guy could hit back normally at first, but when the opponent keeps the fast jabs coming, it becomes increasingly difficult to hit back, or even defend well. Reminds me of the fights between Matrix agent and Morpheus, for example. High skill enables Morpheus to hit back at first, then block some hits, but eventually he get his ass kicked. Only in fights between wired 3 samurai or a melee adept, against a mundane with natural reflexes, would the TN penalty grow quite big. And this sounds logical.
| QUOTE (GentlemanLoser) |
| Have a defender gain a cumulative TN penalty (+1?) for each counterattack roll they make on passes they can't act in. |
My house rule, which seems to work quite well to date, is that the defender can only use Full Defence in any pass in which they don't have an action.
That's a good rule.
That's also wholly silly IMHO, since the act of avoiding attacks itself will damage the opponent in many, many cases. The two are integrally linked.
I keep having an unresistable urge to point that out. Sorry.
I keep having an unresistable urge to point that out. Sorry.
And in many, many cases the act of avoiding attacks doesn't interfere with your opponent at all.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| That's also wholly silly IMHO, since the act of avoiding attacks itself will damage the opponent in many, many cases. The two are integrally linked. I keep having an unresistable urge to point that out. Sorry. |
Yeah we've been back and forth over this before. I just figured I'd mention it again for those that haven't read it before.
I don't find it any sillier than the canon alternative, and as I've said in the past, I haven't had any complaints.
On a side note, I don't know about everyone else, but all the hand to hand adepts I see almost always have whirling. If the rules make it impossible to fight off multiple opponents without it, then it just seems most people who do that would have it..IMO.
| QUOTE (GentlemanLoser @ Feb 15 2005, 09:39 AM) |
| And in many, many cases the act of avoiding attacks doesn't interfere with your opponent at all. |
Only if you suck.
And Whirling is an example of why the advanced rules SUCK. There are some powers whose advantages are too good to pass up, and others that are pretty well pointless. No balance. Suckage.
| QUOTE |
| I've not read the Girl Scout example,... |
Just for reference, I've included a snip from the original post.
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[ Spoiler ]
But the girlscouts kicking the snot out of the lone defender is what would really happen. We're not talking about Hollywood physics here, where each attacker waits their turn to attack after the guy (or girl, in this case) on their team gets beat down or incapacitated in front of them. All those 5 girls are gonna mob that one guy and he ends up losing all his mobility, thereby getting pinned by all those girls. Are they gonna be able to beat the snot out of him at that point, maybe, but not very easily, because they have to worry about hitting their fellow girlscouts. But some of them might not care because in a melee like that you'll have no idea who just smacked the crap out of you just to get at the lone guy.
Now, if the guy gets to go first due to his initiative his best option at that point is to move away, use his mobility to his advantage, line them up as best he can, and not allow all 5 of those girls to attack at once. Would that be the Herding manuever? Not sure (don't have the rules in front of me), but if the guy is smart he'll do his best to pick his battleground or if all else fails then he'll just run. Is running away the the badass, macho thing to do? Not really, but he'd be better off getting some ribbing for running away from girlscouts as opposed to the ridicule he'd get for losing to a squad of girlscouts.
Now, if the guy gets to go first due to his initiative his best option at that point is to move away, use his mobility to his advantage, line them up as best he can, and not allow all 5 of those girls to attack at once. Would that be the Herding manuever? Not sure (don't have the rules in front of me), but if the guy is smart he'll do his best to pick his battleground or if all else fails then he'll just run. Is running away the the badass, macho thing to do? Not really, but he'd be better off getting some ribbing for running away from girlscouts as opposed to the ridicule he'd get for losing to a squad of girlscouts.
"Only if you suck. "
LOL!
Or if your opponent is reacting faster than you, and you can't react to his attacks...
"LOL!
Or if your opponent is reacting faster than you, and you can't react to his attacks...
I am no Bruce Lee, but there is no way in hell I honestly expect a group of girl scouts to beat me (or any other adult male within reason) down, that is far from realistic.
Hey Brazila, ever play football (the US kind)? When you're running with the ball and more than one person comes to tackle what happens? More than likely you'll get taken down. Now make that 5 people coming at once to tackle you, what are you gonna do? End up at the bottom of the dogpile, that's what.
Granted, football isn't melee, but unless you've actually been attacked by more than one person at once that analogy probably has the best chance that you've been in that sort of situation.
Granted, football isn't melee, but unless you've actually been attacked by more than one person at once that analogy probably has the best chance that you've been in that sort of situation.
I think the example is inherently flawed. The attacking/evil physad shouldn't have to face the friends in melee penalties in the first phase he attacks. Not all of the other girl scouts have entered into the melee! They are merely "on the scene" when one of their own is viciously attacked! As the first phase progresses, the other girl scouts could either attack individually on their own initiative (and have their asses handed to them like their friend) or the surviving girl scout with the highest initiative delays her action, using a free action to speak something along the lines of "Let's rush him girls!" Then everyone in the troop knows to delay until their slowest member acts... From that point, and only that point in the first phase, should the friends in melee rules apply.
At this point the physad MAY be toast, (I sort of doubt it depending on his maneuvers and whether or not he even bothered to use combat pool on his initial attack). A well constructed martial arts physad is going to throw a helluva lot of dice compared to the scouts. In anyevent, the troop will have one less member if the evil/physad attacks first from what I can see...
At this point the physad MAY be toast, (I sort of doubt it depending on his maneuvers and whether or not he even bothered to use combat pool on his initial attack). A well constructed martial arts physad is going to throw a helluva lot of dice compared to the scouts. In anyevent, the troop will have one less member if the evil/physad attacks first from what I can see...
| QUOTE (GentlemanLoser) |
| "Only if you suck. " LOL! Or if your opponent is reacting faster than you, and you can't react to his attacks... |
hehe
Well really the thing is that attacking requires more motion and action than defending. Defending has far more efficiency of motion. The two are not linearly comparable. The attacker comes to the defender while the fedender just... defends.
I've sparred people faster than me and had no problem defending against them. In fact, in some ways it was easier because you can make it appear as if you have an exploitable hole in your defense and the person will go for it and get Clizzubbed™ in the process. When I was sparring regularly was when I really started to believe that raw speed wasn't near the advantage that everyone thinks it is. Of course, I'm a thug. I use my size and mass to my advantage to negate a lot of that speed. Whoever said size doesn't matter was trying to make themselves feel better.
LOL! I consider myself a lump! I'm just not built for speed.
But, you could consider the extra phase attacks due to initiative continued offence on part of the attacker, with the defender only being able to cover, defend reactively against as series of fast blows...
"In fact, in some ways it was easier because you can make it appear as if you have an exploitable hole in your defense and the person will go for it and get Clizzubbed™ in the process."
Nice word! But, in this example, wouldn't you be using a maneuver to sucker your opponent into attacking an area you wanted them to, and were waiting for?
I'm just not built for speed.But, you could consider the extra phase attacks due to initiative continued offence on part of the attacker, with the defender only being able to cover, defend reactively against as series of fast blows...
"In fact, in some ways it was easier because you can make it appear as if you have an exploitable hole in your defense and the person will go for it and get Clizzubbed™ in the process."
Nice word!
But, in this example, wouldn't you be using a maneuver to sucker your opponent into attacking an area you wanted them to, and were waiting for?
you can pick apart some of the details of the girl scout example, but you can't change the basic fact that five barely-trained girl scouts have a solid chance of taking down a grown man whose training and magic are both focused on hand-to-hand combat.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
hehe Well really the thing is that attacking requires more motion and action than defending. Defending has far more efficiency of motion. The two are not linearly comparable. The attacker comes to the defender while the defender just... defends. |
Fighting someone way faster? Fine... keep them slightly further away, they start to move and you've got your foot already coming up..
Those of you who know martial arts (esp Taekwondo) should remember the effectiveness of a front leg sidekick when someone moves into the attack. Not very fast, but time it right and it can end the fight.. but it's a defensive kick.
Other options, they throw an attack, you just step to the side and slam your arm/weapon down on theirs, and because they're still going, just clothesline them.
Then you get into all of the martial arts that are designed around using someone's attack against them -- why shouldn't they be able to do damage whenever you're attacked (and not surprised)? That's what the entire style of fighting is based on. They might not help -- the person might be just as good, or not use one of the normal attacks, and then they should hit. SR terms, they got more successes. If they got less, they rushed in using something that's reflexive and got nailed for it. Maybe a glancing blow (something that's soaked easily), or it might have been a textbook shot that had the attackers legs keep going while his head stopped cold, and when he wakes up, an hour or two will have passed...
There are a LOT of things you can do to defend a fight that just aren't attacks, they're taking advantage of the attack.
The physad in the example doesn't appear to have Improved Combat Ability...
Which IMHO doesn't make him a Marital Arts/Warrior's Way adept at all.
No whirling maneuever? What's up with that?
That guy should be rolling 12 dice without even having to think about using his combat pool.
So I don't buy that this represents a broken rule mechanic, the adept in the girl scout example obviously follows the Path of the Strawman....
Which IMHO doesn't make him a Marital Arts/Warrior's Way adept at all.
No whirling maneuever? What's up with that?
That guy should be rolling 12 dice without even having to think about using his combat pool.
So I don't buy that this represents a broken rule mechanic, the adept in the girl scout example obviously follows the Path of the Strawman....
so, because a bunch of 12-yo girls can beat up a grown man with a black belt in the martial art of his choice, but not a physad with a black belt and improved ability, the rules aren't broken. think about that, man--you're saying that only someone with high-end magical powers should be able to beat up a girl scout pack.
It depends on what merit badges the Girl Scout pack has...
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| so, because a bunch of 12-yo girls can beat up a grown man with a black belt in the martial art of his choice, but not a physad with a black belt and improved ability, the rules aren't broken. think about that, man--you're saying that only someone with high-end magical powers should be able to beat up a girl scout pack. |
Get enough people fighting at once, even if one is a master and the others have just had a half-serious batch of training in self-defence, and eventually the law of averages will catch up.
You reach a point where you have 5 people attacking you at once, and you very well might stop three of the attacks, and take a fourth somewhere that it won't hurt.. but that still leaves a fifth. Two on one fighting is HARD, and it should be hard. You have to pay attention to two people at once, keep them from getting around so that you can only see one at a time, keep from opening up your defences against one while you attack the other. It just gets harder with every subsequent opponent. Five on one fighting? You pretty well HAVE to open up to attack.
So, I would say if a half dozen girl scouts CAN'T take out someone that (that doesn't shrug off every single hit like it's nothing, such as a 12 body troll or whatever..) then the rules are broken. It shouldn't be easy, or fast, or certain, but it should be possible, and even probable depending on the someone.
uh, okay. i admit, my experience in booting girl scouts in the gut is pretty limited, but that's ridiculous. there's no way five girl scouts with two weeks of karate classes should be able to take down a healthy, untrained adult in a fair fight, much less an athletic adult with years of unarmed combat experience.
Somehow, this example reminds me of the game/comics "Lunch Money".
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| uh, okay. i admit, my experience in booting girl scouts in the gut is pretty limited, but that's ridiculous. there's no way five girl scouts with two weeks of karate classes should be able to take down a healthy, untrained adult in a fair fight, much less an athletic adult with years of unarmed combat experience. |
He's winning, but they've got him surrounded. He attacks one, throws a punch, she goes down, but he's overextended and one slams into his back. He's on the ground, she's fallen on him. The rest kick him a few times, and one lands a lucky shot to the throat, or the nose, or the bottom ribs, or solar plexus, or any of the other spots which are debilitating to hit. And keep doing it.
Besides, two or three karate classes makes a massive difference. The most important lesson is the first... 'how not to break your hand hitting something'. After that it's just how to block, a bunch of different techniques, and experience. The last is a big one, but not the be-all-end-all. I've seen a lot of black belts with many, many years experience get laid out by an accidental shot from a beginner.. in one on one fights.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| so, because a bunch of 12-yo girls can beat up a grown man with a black belt in the martial art of his choice, but not a physad with a black belt and improved ability, the rules aren't broken. think about that, man--you're saying that only someone with high-end magical powers should be able to beat up a girl scout pack. |
Just so we're clear, girl scouts can be between the ages of 9-14....
If it truly was 5 vs. 1 in real life I do think they could pull a grown man down to the ground IF they actually do act in unision. If they don't, the man will be able to beat them off and presumbably run away.
So it comes down to the maturity/level of professionalism of the scouts in question. Have they learned to work well as a team? Is their troop leader or scout master present? That's a GM's call to make and it directly effects the parameters as well as the outcome of the fight.
Yeah, I think it would take Bruce Lee/magic powers to fight off 5 co-ordinated opponents. Then again, according to one Japanese philosopher, an expert with the katana could potentially take on 10 opponents and not fail. But again, he's talking about a true expert...
I stand by what I said, the adept in the example stands a better chance by the rules than what he's given by the author in any case. The rules violation at the beginning fatally flaws the example. The adept is going to take the little girl out in the first round, as for the rest of them, they're down one friend in melee already and I just bet that even strawman adept could take at lest one more out in the rest of the combat turn before he even had to RESIST damage and most likely he'll have wounded some of the others. Then again, if I was playing the adept I would probably resist the urge to dump ALL the CP in at one time... .
I'm convinced that the girl scouts do have the advantage. It really is a toss up as to what the result will be. The possibilities are reflected in the probabilities IMHO, that's why we roll dice. Otherwise, the game is just one long narration game between the GM and the players.
there's no way, in real life or in SR, that a girl scout with 2 str and karate 1 is going to knock down anybody with a body of 3+. in SR, even if they use the knockdown attack option, that's still only TN 4, and you only need one success to keep from going down. in real life, unless the man is a total spaz, there's no way a 12-yo girl is going to knock him down if he's expecting a fight.
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| I've seen a lot of black belts with many, many years experience get laid out by an accidental shot from a beginner.. in one on one fights. |
key word there: accidental. these girl scouts can do it on purpose, and they can do it just about every time.
I personally don't like the penalty for facing multiple opponents. There are two things you do when facing more than one person at a time:
1) Explode outward in an attempt to hit as many oppoents in short period of time that you can. These attacks are nasty things like chops to the throat, inverting knees, eye rakes, etc. Your priority is to get out of being surrounded.
2) Position yourself and opponents so don't face more than one at a time. This is the ideal situation because you can better control over your opponents. The goal here is not get surrounded and if that happens see #1.
The obvious is not to get surrounded, but facing more than one oppoent just means you need to hurt them fast and change the situation from #1 to #2. Standing in the middle of 6 attackers is not a good idea.
I can see what SR is doing with the multiple opponent penalty due to the abstract nature of melee combat in SR, but for a more detailed and realistic system, I'd remove it.
1) Explode outward in an attempt to hit as many oppoents in short period of time that you can. These attacks are nasty things like chops to the throat, inverting knees, eye rakes, etc. Your priority is to get out of being surrounded.
2) Position yourself and opponents so don't face more than one at a time. This is the ideal situation because you can better control over your opponents. The goal here is not get surrounded and if that happens see #1.
The obvious is not to get surrounded, but facing more than one oppoent just means you need to hurt them fast and change the situation from #1 to #2. Standing in the middle of 6 attackers is not a good idea.
I can see what SR is doing with the multiple opponent penalty due to the abstract nature of melee combat in SR, but for a more detailed and realistic system, I'd remove it.
| QUOTE (CanvasBack) |
| Yeah, I think it would take Bruce Lee/magic powers to fight off 5 co-ordinated opponents. |
karate 1 != coordinated attacks. they know how to throw a proper punch, count to ten in japanese, and bow.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| there's no way, in real life or in SR, that a girl scout with 2 str and karate 1 is going to knock down anybody with a body of 3+. in SR, even if they use the knockdown attack option, that's still only TN 4, and you only need one success to keep from going down. in real life, unless the man is a total spaz, there's no way a 12-yo girl is going to knock him down if he's expecting a fight. |
Takes maybe 5-10 pounds of pressure to knock someone over if they're standing wrong for it. Less if you're in an extremely bad stance.. and most stances are good against some directions, not all. If you're fighting 5 people at once, the odds are that you're going to have at least one opponent who is attacking you from the wrong angle for your stance to do any good.
The stances that do offer a lot of protection from getting knocked over have their own problems. Namely, they're wide, long stances typically, which means you have to spend extra time guarding against low blows. Shorter, narrower stances aren't as stable, so you get hit, you're more likely to go down. Maybe not easily, but it's far more likely.
You get this in martial arts.. they put you in a stance, and if it's not done properly, they push at your head with one finger.. and you almost fall. Or push your shoulder and hold on so you don't fall.
I can see what Grinder is saying, but...
The SR system simply reflects what happens when you FAIL to take his suggestions on how to get out of the situiation in question.
If you can break out of the Multiple Enemies in melee situation, you can choose between running away or taking out one of those enemies one on one until the next set of initiative passes.
-----
Edit for MFB
You really don't need to be a martial arts expert to figure out whether or not surrounding and individual opponent is a good idea, do you?
The SR system simply reflects what happens when you FAIL to take his suggestions on how to get out of the situiation in question.
If you can break out of the Multiple Enemies in melee situation, you can choose between running away or taking out one of those enemies one on one until the next set of initiative passes.
-----
Edit for MFB
You really don't need to be a martial arts expert to figure out whether or not surrounding and individual opponent is a good idea, do you?
except that a guy with 6 points in any unarmed combat skill is almost never going to be standing wrong if he knows he's in a fight. karate 1 is not enough to take advantage of someone else's bad stance--hell, at karate 1, you've still yet to master your own stances.
edit: just because surrounding your opponent is a good idea doesn't mean that a bunch of girl scouts will be able to execute such a manuever properly against a man who's trained in hand-to-hand combat.
edit: just because surrounding your opponent is a good idea doesn't mean that a bunch of girl scouts will be able to execute such a manuever properly against a man who's trained in hand-to-hand combat.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| except that a guy with 6 points in any unarmed combat skill is almost never going to be standing wrong if he knows he's in a fight. karate 1 is not enough to take advantage of someone else's bad stance--hell, at karate 1, you've still yet to master your own stances. |
Which shows the limitations in the current melee system. We are trying to add more detail than it was intended to address.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| except that a guy with 6 points in any unarmed combat skill is almost never going to be standing wrong if he knows he's in a fight. karate 1 is not enough to take advantage of someone else's bad stance--hell, at karate 1, you've still yet to master your own stances. |
That's just it though... it's VERY hard to be in the right stance to stay up relatively easily from 4-5 different directions. It's possible, but it's not easy. In fact, it's fairly hard. Most stances are aimed at being good for front/back side/side. They aren't great for angles.
Basically, to figure out what angle a stance is bad for, draw a line between your feet. Anything at a right angle, your stance is weak against.
If you have no line, then your stance is weak against ALL angles (because your feet are side by side or you're standing on one foot.. sometimes it has combat benefits, but not when you are against more than one person. You're asking to be hit from behind).
Karate 1 you haven't mastered stances. But you don't need to have in this particular application. It's 5 on 1. The odds are quite good that one of the girl scouts is coming from the right angle to make staying upright a problem.
i'd argue that fighting kids is not a matter of detail. more one of taste.
Dawnstar, that assumes that the man is just going to sit there and watch them come. what kind of idiot is going to let himself be surrounded like that? it's not like it'd be much of a challenge to boot one of the girls in the head, then hop out of their little ring of doom through the gap he just created. wash, rinse, repeat: five girl scouts who now need medical attention.
Dawnstar, that assumes that the man is just going to sit there and watch them come. what kind of idiot is going to let himself be surrounded like that? it's not like it'd be much of a challenge to boot one of the girls in the head, then hop out of their little ring of doom through the gap he just created. wash, rinse, repeat: five girl scouts who now need medical attention.
Forget Karate 1, forget Strength 2.
The little girls whose friend got pimp slapped by a stupidly constructed adept find their inner bitch, get an adrenaline rush, surround him, and kick the living shit out of him. Lone Star arrives, clears the girls away, and pistol whips the stupid freak to death as an example to others. In a surprise to everyone in Seattle, ORC and MOM actually endorse this policy.
End of story.
The little girls whose friend got pimp slapped by a stupidly constructed adept find their inner bitch, get an adrenaline rush, surround him, and kick the living shit out of him. Lone Star arrives, clears the girls away, and pistol whips the stupid freak to death as an example to others. In a surprise to everyone in Seattle, ORC and MOM actually endorse this policy.
End of story.
Grinder: wouldn';t you always want to end a fight as quickly as possible? I know I do. If I'm fighting someone I'm not going to play around with attacks that are not eye gouges, groin kicks, throat shots, etc.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Grinder: wouldn';t you always want to end a fight as quickly as possible? I know I do. If I'm fighting someone I'm not going to play around with attacks that are not eye gouges, groin kicks, throat shots, etc. |
Yeap. My point being, the emphasis on getting out of being surrounded my more than one opponent where you have more options aside from just being surrounded.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) | ||
Yeap. My point being, the emphasis on getting out of being surrounded my more than one opponent where you have more options aside from just being surrounded. |
Mmhmm.
Looks like the options in use is one of the martial arts manouvers (which the initial example which everyone seems to have been working from, are lacking -- which makes me think that the combat-adept knows brawling with no manouvers)
you really shouldn't need maneuvers to kick 12-yo tail.
Funny topic. I coach a soccer team with 5 teen girls on it that also do/did girl scouts together. They are 13-15 so a little older than the usual age of scouts. A few of them do karate.
It wouldn't be a contest if we fought. I would stomp them like the girl scouts they are. If I had my glasses on it would be a ugly fight but I'd still walk away. And all my melee train comes from kicking my brothers around years ago.
If it were the boys it would be a different story.
It wouldn't be a contest if we fought. I would stomp them like the girl scouts they are. If I had my glasses on it would be a ugly fight but I'd still walk away. And all my melee train comes from kicking my brothers around years ago.
If it were the boys it would be a different story.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you really shouldn't need maneuvers to kick 12-yo tail. |
It seems like you're operating on the assumption that the number of people you're fighting is a very minor thing, when all is said and done. That's not a good assumption to make.
One on one, the adept should win. Every time. Even one after another. No question.. but all at once, then it's up in the air. He might win -- it's not easy or certain. How many martial arts do you even train against fighting multiple opponents? I know that when I was learning them, you didn't until you were within a few ranks of black belt, and that was only in the one club, not in the others I trained later in. And 2 on 1, well, I watched some people training like that. The 1, well, he was better than the other two, but the fight was even. He was about the same size and so on as well.
So, we're dealing with 5 smaller, far less experienced people. Realistically, Karate 1 is one class. Karate 2 is knowing a little bit about it.. a couple weeks of training.
So, you've got people that are smaller, with 1/3 the skill. I would say that 5 on 1 would put it at about even, with an advantage to the adept for taking blows, and for the potential presence of manouvers.
Remove the combat penalty for multiple opponents and it's a completely different fight.
I've also toyed with the idea of difference in skill affecting your TN vs. an opponent. I know folks don't like the idea, but there should be no case of Girl Scouts vs. PhysAd at all, period.
I've also toyed with the idea of difference in skill affecting your TN vs. an opponent. I know folks don't like the idea, but there should be no case of Girl Scouts vs. PhysAd at all, period.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| I know folks don't like the idea, but there should be no case of Girl Scouts vs. PhysAd at all, period. |
Dammit, how is MOM going to rule the 6th world if they don't have their legions of Cyber-Ninja-Martial Arts Masters (aka Girl Scouts) to kick the tail of a poor, defenseless, evil physads?
Who will sell cookies in the Barrens? Who will they find to wear those ugly uniforms? How can they train up their daughters without such and organization?
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| It seems like you're operating on the assumption that the number of people you're fighting is a very minor thing, when all is said and done. That's not a good assumption to make. |
no, i'm not. you're overestimating the combat ability of a 12-yo girl who's had, at most, two weeks of karate classes. against five other grown men, yes, the adept should lose. against five girl scouts, it shouldn't even be a contest.
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