Full Version: High initiative vs. Multiple opponents
| QUOTE |
| I don't think there's a need for any house rules at all. All you need is a GM that knows not to bother running a fight with girl scouts versus adepts (or anyone with high unarmed). Then you're left with only having to use the rules when they make sense: against enemies that are actually a threat. |
Depending on your GM and game environment, stuff like this [where large numbers of individually-weak opponents attack one stronger target] can happen more often than you'd think. Devil rats, dogs, low-level bug spirits, watchers, rioting civilians, and gangers are all weak, but can be a threat when they attack en masse.
Right. That's why you run the combats aginst things that are weak but dangerous in groups (gangers etc.). Don't run the combats against things that are weak and mostly worthless even in groups (girl scouts)
The gm can't control it in the way you suggest because charachters can exploit this rule bug by joining melee combats where they should not be able to help much and by using weak allies, like force 1 spirits. Either he makes a house rule like we are discussing to fix the problem, or he just declares that it doesn't work on a case by case basis (meaning that he makes some sort of loose house rule but refuses to tell anyone what it is).
Another problem is that swarming tactics are unavailible to the gm with what you suggest. Either the gm decides you win or they decide you loose. It's a pretty lame gm who regularly says something like "you win the battle, but you each take a medium wound". It is especially lame if they decide you loose and die. But without modifying the rules the larger swarm will pretty much always win, no matter how weak its constituents.
Another problem is that swarming tactics are unavailible to the gm with what you suggest. Either the gm decides you win or they decide you loose. It's a pretty lame gm who regularly says something like "you win the battle, but you each take a medium wound". It is especially lame if they decide you loose and die. But without modifying the rules the larger swarm will pretty much always win, no matter how weak its constituents.
| QUOTE (Rev) |
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| QUOTE |
| The gm can't control it in the way you suggest because charachters can exploit this rule bug by joining melee combats where they should not be able to help much and by using weak allies, like force 1 spirits. Either he makes a house rule like we are discussing to fix the problem, or he just declares that it doesn't work on a case by case basis (meaning that he makes some sort of loose house rule but refuses to tell anyone what it is). |
I guess I'm just blessed with a group that wouldn't bother with swarms of force 1 spirits / watchers, because its cheesy, so the only time I'll ever have to make that choice is if a character decides to attack a girl scout and her 12 year old friends decide they can take him out.
Even if the group isn't inclined to avoid things just for their cheese factor, they'll do it once, then you'll do it to them. After you've swarmed them and shown them what its like to be on the receiving end, they'll be much more inclined to go along with the idea that worthless attackers don't have an impact on a melee.
| QUOTE |
| Another problem is that swarming tactics are unavailible to the gm with what you suggest. Either the gm decides you win or they decide you loose. It's a pretty lame gm who regularly says something like "you win the battle, but you each take a medium wound". It is especially lame if they decide you loose and die. But without modifying the rules the larger swarm will pretty much always win, no matter how weak its constituents. |
I don't follow. Why does the GM decide when you lose?Sure, he says "you beat the girl scouts, good job" without having to roll any dice, but when a real threat comes up, the dice come out.
There's no need to modify the rules, there's only the need for the GM to decide when a swarm is going to be worthless: watchers, girl scouts, force 1 spirits, etc. The rest of the time the dice come out.
5 gangers attacking a physad is a deadly serious threat, and it should be. Hopefully the guy has some shadowrunner friends with him that will shoot a few of those thugs, or join him in the melee.
I never understood how the force one pack could work. Just cast a single powerball and the whol group dies. End of story.
I think the idea is that the watchers attack a spirit guarding a facility where the summoner is not directly present. The obvious solution is for the guard spirit to flee behind a ward or use its other powers such as Movement or Engulf.
Or just don't let watchers attack things (or even threaten them).
Every horror story I've heard about watchers involves them either swarming someone or hunting someone down. If you remove swarming, and make hunting as difficult for a low intelligence critter as it should be, then watchers end up being just what their name implies: things that watch.
Every horror story I've heard about watchers involves them either swarming someone or hunting someone down. If you remove swarming, and make hunting as difficult for a low intelligence critter as it should be, then watchers end up being just what their name implies: things that watch.
Well, they can only harm Astrally active beings, they can't cross wards, and using one's brain can lower their value, but Watchers are technically amazing at Astral Tracking.
It isn't invincible, of course, but it takes a mage what? 18 seconds to summon six force one watchers with no real chance of drain and they last a long time. With a little more prep time they could be force 3 or 4 (because you might have to rest of a bit of drain). If whatever you are attacking doesn't have an area spell or power they basically loose. If they do they wasted one spell action. If they don't act first they get hit by whatever it is that you expect to really do damage once. The normal thing is a pile of weenies and a couple things that can actually do some damage with the friends in melee bonuses.
Anyhow my point is, James, that you do have a house rule. Its just a really vague one "swarming tactics are lame, so they dont work when they shouldn't work". You are just deciding case by case whether this particular attempt at outnumbering and overwhelming an opponant is "cheesy" or clever. If you don't want to have any combat where mobs or swarms try to overwhelm a smaller number of superior opponants and may or may not succede that is sufficient.
Anyhow my point is, James, that you do have a house rule. Its just a really vague one "swarming tactics are lame, so they dont work when they shouldn't work". You are just deciding case by case whether this particular attempt at outnumbering and overwhelming an opponant is "cheesy" or clever. If you don't want to have any combat where mobs or swarms try to overwhelm a smaller number of superior opponants and may or may not succede that is sufficient.
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I don't follow. Why does the GM decide when you lose?Sure, he says "you beat the girl scouts, good job" without having to roll any dice, but when a real threat comes up, the dice come out. |
But by the rules just about all swarms will win, even more so if you only use the rules on the swarms you decide are dangerous (given that your concept of which swarms should be dangerous is far more reasonable than that which emerges from the rules). You end up with a large discontinuity between what you say happens when you wave your hands to avoid a boring lopsided fight, and when you don't and the rules make it a lopsided fight in the other direction. This discontinuity means that there are no shades of sidekick helpers. Either they help and are really really effective (because thats what the rules say), or they are totally useless (because you declare that they are no help).
Now if you happen to be uninterested in using mobbing and swarming tactics in your game you can use GM fiat to eliminate really stupid abuses of friends in melee like the astral weenie thing quite effectively. If, on the other hand, you do want to use and allow such tactics but don't want them to be so ludicrously effective you have to modify the rules a bit.
When I was gming frequently I tended to avoid battles with large numbers of opponants like the plague, they just took forever. And I don't remember ever encountering a really lopsided freinds in melee situation. I am sure I would have just used GM fiat to eliminate the watcher thing, had anyone thought of it, but I read the ignoring attackers idea on this board long ago and it seems like a very elegant solution.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| I never understood how the force one pack could work. Just cast a single powerball and the whol group dies. End of story. |
Probably because Physical spells don't work on purely Astral targets. Manaball, on the other hand ...
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Probably because Physical spells don't work on purely Astral targets. Manaball, on the other hand ... |
I'm just gonna go sit in the corner now...
MANABALL MANABALL!
| QUOTE |
| It isn't invincible, of course, but it takes a mage what? 18 seconds to summon six force one watchers with no real chance of drain and they last a long time. With a little more prep time they could be force 3 or 4 (because you might have to rest of a bit of drain). If whatever you are attacking doesn't have an area spell or power they basically loose. If they do they wasted one spell action. If they don't act first they get hit by whatever it is that you expect to really do damage once. The normal thing is a pile of weenies and a couple things that can actually do some damage with the friends in melee bonuses. |
I still say the Watcher angle is mostly useless. You're conjuring them on enemy soil in most cases (astral enemies will hide behind Wards and Watchers cannot cross those), so that's 6 passes of wasted time because the Elemental can be taking them out as you conjure them, or simply alerting the rest of the base (and maybe hiding behind another ward or the other side of the facility's one). And even if you manage to take it out, wouldn't a spell have been faster? There is simply no net advantage to the Astral weenie swarm over any other tactic.
Unless you allow the Friends in Melee bonus to affect combat against Wards and such. Then I can see an advantage.
there are cases where it'd be useful. for instance, if you're infiltrating a secure site, it's entirely possible that you'll run into an elemental that's not accompanying a mage. given the rules for binding elemental guards, you could even encounter one that's not directly controlled by a mage. in a case like that, clouding the elemental with astral weenies while you move in for the kill is a viable tactic, according to the numbers.
Yes, its a house rule, but it makes plenty of sense and is much easier to playtest than some sort of overhaul to the initiative system.
| QUOTE |
| But by the rules just about all swarms will win, |
This is far from true. In our last game the monofilament whip physad was surrounded by gangers and their boss. If the boss hadn't been there he would have killed them all. It would have taken a while, but it would have happened.
| QUOTE |
| You end up with a large discontinuity between what you say happens |
Only because of the viewpoint that the rules are meant to cover every possible situation. Its my view that the combat rules are there for when skilled combatants are fighting one another. They weren't playtested using girl scout troops because they are not meant to be used to simulate fights between adults and girl scouts.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 16 2005, 08:01 PM) |
| there are cases where it'd be useful. for instance, if you're infiltrating a secure site, it's entirely possible that you'll run into an elemental that's not accompanying a mage. given the rules for binding elemental guards, you could even encounter one that's not directly controlled by a mage. in a case like that, clouding the elemental with astral weenies while you move in for the kill is a viable tactic, according to the numbers. |
Except that you wasted an action ordering the astral attack. If the elemental hasn't spotted you (and the TN would be very low since the force stacks for each spirit, IIRC), then setting an ambush is great with Friends in Melee, but so is casting Control Thoughs. And only one of those alerts the summoner to the danger. I'm not saying it's useless, just no more useful than anything else.* And by that I mean "anything else used to defeat x situation". Hell, the attack pack seem to work best as a defensive set up. "Attack anything that enters the warded area, except me." "Right, don't attack anything except you." "No, no, no, Don't attack me, attack anyone else that enters the warded area" "Got it." "Say it!" "Attack any people that enter the area unless they are you." "Not just people." "Well, if it's you, it's people." "What?"
Put the shoe on the other foot though. The Watcher Attack Pack is a great tool for a Security Mage.
That's who I was playing in my little rendition: Spellslinger Corporal Susan McKnight. She doesn't have her PhD yet, but she'd taking courses.
not really true, kanada. if the guardian elemental is high force, the watcher pack can allow you defeat it where you might not otherwise be able to. as for the wasted action, you can order the watchers to attack whatever you attack when you summon them--no need to wait until you see your target. "hit what i hit" is hard to misunderstand, even for a force 1 watcher.
Why doesn't the Elemental flee before they can attack it? I mean, it's Intelligent enough to know the odds.
because it's bound to a certain radius, or has certain orders to follow. or because the mage and his watchers zoomed up on him before it could escape. it's not a foolproof tactic every time, but that doesn't mean it's not useful when used correctly.
I'll agree with that.
It's tough to sneak up on a powerful Elemental bound to guarding though, even more so with "force" (hahahaha).
It's tough to sneak up on a powerful Elemental bound to guarding though, even more so with "force" (hahahaha).
...if i kill you and eat your heart, you'll never hurt me with your malicious puns again. and, i'll gain your power. what's your power again?
Annoy Motorfirebox Level 7. And Experimental Frappe Level 1.
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