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James McMurray
The only way we're going to solve this is to find 15 black belts, and 75 slightly trained girl scouts. Pair them off in groups of 5 vs. 1 and let them go to town. After they've recouperated redo the fights with different groups of 5. I'd suggest a total of 100 fights so we can get a good sampling.

Just be sure to bring plenty of waivers so you don't get sued by a bunch of irate moms.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
It seems like you're operating on the assumption that the number of people you're fighting is a very minor thing, when all is said and done. That's not a good assumption to make.

no, i'm not. you're overestimating the combat ability of a 12-yo girl who's had, at most, two weeks of karate classes. against five other grown men, yes, the adept should lose. against five girl scouts, it shouldn't even be a contest.

I'm making the fundamental assumption that even a 12 year old girl with 2 weeks of karate classes understands that in a fight, you hit someone. I wouldn't consider that to be unreasonable -- if it's not the case, then they're using full defence, and will lose.

What my personal experience tells me is that even if they are momentously unskilled, they are trying, and based on my own experiences, in a melee like that, the weight of numbers will mean that the adept cannot defend against everything. He may be able to knock out all of them before one of them does connect in something that will change the situation (for instance, a low blow). But most isn't all.

People training 2 weeks are well known for low blows. They happen. A lot. It's not that they aim to hit someone below the belt, it's just that they aren't skilled enough to hit everything they aim at in a fight. And people don't defend against that readily. They know it's got a good chance at coming for them, and they still miss on the block, in a one on one fight. In a 5 on 1 fight? There are 5 people throwing wild attacks. Yes, the vast majority of them will be glancing blows. But NOT all of them.

Do I honestly believe that one on one the odds are more than one in a hundred that a beginner will take out a master? No. But I've seen it happen. I've seen masters come into a sparring match and walk right into a shot, right at the start. And in a real fight, the first good blow is fairly decisive.. even a light stun wound makes a difference. A moderate even more so.

And yes, I do believe that 5 on 1 will be vastly harder for the master to win. I suspect he or she will, some of the time. But not always. Maybe not even the majority of the time.
shadow_scholar
Upon further reflecting I think it all comes down to how the initiative falls. In the first round of combat turns everyone gets to go, so we're assuming the Man (talking normal human male with some Martial arts training at 6) is going to go first. Depending upon his skill level he can try to strike the multiple opponents, or can just take out one very solidly. Once he does that it all comes down to how the girls take their actions. Do they all roll separate initiatives? If so, the Man is going to pwn them as they attack one at a time (very stupid). If they all roll the same initiative and go at the same time and rush the guy, he's done for. All they have to do is grab onto him, some will make the rolls and some won't, but eventually he'll lose his mobility, which means he's done for.


mfb
the only way a kid that young is going to score any sort of blow that is going to even slow down a healthy, combat-ready adult is if they get lucky and punch him in the crotch at just the right angle. a decent pair of jeans will reduce the force of most blows--even most blows to the crotch--to the point where they're no longer a threat. in real life, a quality combatant will be able afford to straight-out ignore three or four of the girls while he stomps the one or two directly in front of him into goo. the three or four to his sides and back won't have a clear shot at anything important long enough to expect any of them to get a solid hit in.
James McMurray
This is not how the initative system works. Even if they all go on the same initiative they still take their actions one at a time.
mfb
QUOTE (shadow scholar)
All they have to do is grab onto him, some will make the rolls and some won't, but eventually he'll lose his mobility, which means he's done for.

dude, all the guy has to do is fall over and land on one or two of the girls.
shadow_scholar
QUOTE (James McMurray)
This is not how the initative system works. Even if they all go on the same initiative they still take their actions one at a time.

Think logically, though. That makes perfect sense if they're attacking one at a time, but they wouldn't be, they'd be attacking all at the same time. Everything happens simultaneously, so the Man gets effed by additional T#s to fight off that many opponents all attacking at once.

QUOTE ("mfb")
dude, all the guy has to do is fall over and land on one or two of the girls.


And when he does he's effed because the other girls are just gonna land on him and pummel him.

If we were talking SR2, when the high initiative roller got more actions before everyone else then it would be a different story. He'd be able to take 'em out one at a time before they got to react, but not anymore.

mfb
right, because a 12-yo girl is going to do so much damage to a grown, combat-hardened adult in the two or three seconds it takes him to stand up again.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (mfb)
the only way a kid that young is going to score any sort of blow that is going to even slow down a healthy, combat-ready adult is if they get lucky and punch him in the crotch at just the right angle. a decent pair of jeans will reduce the force of most blows--even most blows to the crotch--to the point where they're no longer a threat. in real life, a quality combatant will be able afford to straight-out ignore three or four of the girls while he stomps the one or two directly in front of him into goo. the three or four to his sides and back won't have a clear shot at anything important long enough to expect any of them to get a solid hit in.

Or fall on the side of the knee (doesn't take much to wreck a joint) or put a finger in the eye..

Specifically, however, your example would be a case of he's 'ignoring' 4 of the girl scouts in favour of fighting two of them, giving them free shots at his back/sides, in favour of only being actively 'fighting' the last one.

Sounds like a good house rule for those situations.. he's got no extra target numbers, the girl scout he's fighting doesn't either, and he has to soak remaining (girl scout's successes) Str(M) hits, unopposed, with -1 to their TN's from the girl scout he IS fighting.
mfb
your back and sides are the least-vulnerable, most-protected areas. the girls shouldn't be doing any damage to the guy unless they get a 1-in-a-hundred shot. the knee is a possibility, but you're assuming that the girls would know to do that. the eye is not a possibility, because they can't reach it.
shadow_scholar
QUOTE (mfb)
right, because a 12-yo girl is going to do so much damage to a grown, combat-hardened adult in the two or three seconds it takes him to stand up again.

dude, do you realize just how long 3 seconds is in a melee? Look at a watch. Now imagine at least 3 girls beating on you while you're on the ground for those 3 long seconds. It doesn't take much when you can't move to defend yourself. All it takes is one good kick to the head and you're unconcious, or worse, you're dead.

Yeah, the SR rules are seriously flawed, but I always try to see something from a realistic standpoint and adjust the rules that way by adding T#s if I need to, or taking some away. But if we're just talking basic rules then the Man, not to mention the Adept, is going to have an advantage because those girls would only be able to attack him one at a time. Has anyone actually playtested what happens when 5 girls attack a decent Adept? If so, what happened, according to SR rules?
Austere Emancipator
shadow_scholar: Yes, someone has. This message is also referenced in the opening message of this thread, and the author him/herself quoted the pertinent parts of the message in the 14th message of this thread, the one right above your first reply to this thread.

Although, realistically, the 12-year-old girls should probably have BOD and STR of 1.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (mfb)
your back and sides are the least-vulnerable, most-protected areas. the girls shouldn't be doing any damage to the guy unless they get a 1-in-a-hundred shot. the knee is a possibility, but you're assuming that the girls would know to do that. the eye is not a possibility, because they can't reach it.

That's going well beyond SR's combat system to implement and would be vastly over complicated to implement, and beyond that..

The bottom 2 ribs break rather easily -- not always, but they are vulnerable. The kidneys also are vulnerable.

The back is harder, but not invulnerable. The reason people make damage resistance rolls is because no matter where you get hit, it can hurt. If by some occurrence the blow lands exactly right, some nerd could drop the captain of the team.

Just for an example... big guy's moving in to shove the nerd, nerd throws the punch, and the big guy slips going right into it. Knocks himself out on the nerd's fist.
It's not LIKELY, but it's possible.

Assuming average male adult height of 6' (which I've always found reasonable, but have recently been told is on the tall side).. if said girl scouts are at the upper end of the age bracket, they can be anywhere from 5' tall to 5'6. If they're at the lower end, then no, they can't reach the eye, but are VASTLY more likely to hit the groin area, because it's at the relatively ideal height for punching and so on.

And, just because a beginner would not think of hitting someone in the knee is not a good reason for why they would not end up hitting the knee. They're beginners. That just might be where the blow lands. Fighting is chaotic.
mfb
your arguments hinge on low-probability freak occurances. that's not what's happening, here--in the SR rules, the girl scouts will spank the adept nine times out of ten. the girl scouts shouldn't just happen to hit the guy's knee at the right angle every fight; they shouldn't just happen to get in that lucky groin shot every time; they shouldn't just happen to be tall enough for an eye gouge (that they haven't been trained to use) every time.
vapor
here's the thing... the rules for multiple attackers are not meant to cover the girlscout troop-- using the canon rules of course it's going to seem silly. friends in combat is designed to cover a typical fight-- between adults.

i'm the head bouncer at one of the busiest nightclubs in the city, and at 6'3, 200 i'm one of the bigger guys (which isn't saying much). when a fight does break out we never handle it alone, we all carry flashlights for the express purpose of signaling everyone who works there to drop everything they're doing and get there. we've taken down monsters and kung fu'ers, not with any real fighting skill but with numbers. i'm pretty sure that's what the designers had in mind when they wrote the rule...
shadow_scholar
Thanx for the link, Austere. In the first example it seems to go down like it should if the girlscouts surround the guy. In the second example he uses his movement to great effect, plus they added in the rule for the friends in melee which I think skewed the outcome. Their version of how the friends in melee worked by not allowing the friends in melee bonus count for those Girlscouts who hadn't gone yet isn't perfect. Those girlscouts are still going to threaten an area and limit the Adept's mobility, so I think that really skewed the combat in his favor, if he had stayed in the middle of the pack. But when he started moving and using hs speed and manueverability to his advantage he started owning the girlscouts, as it should be.

One thing that neither of the situations accounted for was the Adept's armor. If he were smart he would have had some impact armor and reduced the power of the Girlscout's attacks, stacking the odds even more in his favor.

Now that I've seen the specifics of the Friends in Melee rule I don't see anything wrong with the rules at all. They do a decent job of dealing with what the outcome would be if an Adept fought a group of Girl Scouts, and that outcome depends on whether he fights wisely and picks his battleground, or if he's a moron and tries to stand up to 5 Girls Scouts surrounding him.

Oh, and as for the Girl Scouts having a Body and Strength of 1, I don't agree, I'd think that would be more indicative of a small child or extraordinarily weak or infirm person, not a growing, active adolescent. Remember that the human adult average is 3, an average that includes both men and women. I would say a 2 hits the mark perfectly for the Girl Scouts.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 15 2005, 05:26 PM)
your arguments hinge on low-probability freak occurances. that's not what's happening, here--in the SR rules, the girl scouts will spank the adept nine times out of ten. the girl scouts shouldn't just happen to hit the guy's knee at the right angle every fight; they shouldn't just happen to get in that lucky groin shot every time; they shouldn't just happen to be tall enough for an eye gouge (that they haven't been trained to use) every time.

True, the individual probabilities of all the stuff I've come up with are fairly low. I haven't run the fight, I really don't know how it would work out.

Just like, on a relatively low chance, the adept could take down the first two girl scouts before they have a chance to do anything, slam the third and fourth into one another and hit the last with a pair of head shots.

Why do I say a relatively low chance? Because I personally don't think it's that likely. The girl scouts can't reach the adepts face? Fine.. the adept is used to fighting people closer to his own size, he's more likely to miss because they're smaller by far. You're in a melee, you catch motion to your left, so you swing a punch.. and it goes an inch over the girl's head, or a foot over, depending on your aim.

Now.. because of your point about SR rules, the girl scouts win hands down 90% of the time..
From my own experiences..

Just tossing a bunch of dice around, the odds that the girl scouts would do any damage is very slim. (Using girl scouts at skill 1, and giving them combat pool of 1-2 such that they throw 2 dice, and the adept with skill 6 and throwing NO combat pool). The odds that they hit, fairly good. The odds that he doesn't soak at TN2 with 4-6 body dice? Fairly low. I don't consider that odd at all. This is with the girls attacking.

With the adept attacking.. well... based on a few tosses, giving the adept 2 combat pool that he attacks with, and only attacking once.. the girl takes a moderate stun wound. If not more, the majority of the time. Based on no modifiers but friends in melee.

Vapor, I expect you're right about the intent of the rule.
James McMurray
QUOTE (vapor)
here's the thing... the rules for multiple attackers are not meant to cover the girlscout troop-- using the canon rules of course it's going to seem silly. friends in combat is designed to cover a typical fight-- between adults.

Where's my "what he said" flag when I need it?
mfb
the girls will be attacking against TN 2; most of their rolls, they're going to get 2 successes, for a base damage of S. the adept is only soaking against TN 2, sure, but it's impossible for him to soak that down to nothing unless he uses combat pool. with a TN of 8 to attack and counterattack, he's going to be spending quite a bit of combat pool just to get a hit in. the girls will wear out his combat pool, then start getting in L hits.
Rev
The house rule where anyone can simply choose to ignore an attacker and avoid the friends in melee bonus seems very simple and balanced. Basically one chooses not to fight some opponants, and to just take whatever, hopefully weak, blows those land. No melee skill roll at all. Doesn't matter much if you let them use combat pool to soak or not, I think I would, but they would run out of it fast anyway.

Basically you are going to be able to ignore those who can barely hurt you to concentrate either on reducing their numbers, or taking out the really dangerous people. This is well balanced by the fact that you have vastly fewer dice to resist with, and cannot counterattack ignored opponants. Even if they can just barely hurt you they can start to win by attrition.

If I was fighting a half-dozen 12 year olds to the death my strategy would be to take them out one after another while basically ignoring the others. They aren't strong enough to hurt me much from the sides or behind (without weapons), while every attack I make is likely to incapacitate one of them (at least momentarily).

On the other hand if I was fighting a half-dozen 12 year olds with knives, even if they knew no more about fighting than me I think I would be in big trouble. However my orc street sam could still safely ignore 4 of them and take out two of the others in his first attack. With some bad luck he might pick up a light wound or two, but that is good because that is why he can beat up 6 feral children, but not 100 while he could beat up 1000 angry infants.
hahnsoo
Now we just need to pit 5 Girl Scouts with Hold-out pistols against a troll with a Panther Cannon. Then our data will be complete...
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (mfb)
the girls will be attacking against TN 2; most of their rolls, they're going to get 2 successes, for a base damage of S. the adept is only soaking against TN 2, sure, but it's impossible for him to soak that down to nothing unless he uses combat pool. with a TN of 8 to attack and counterattack, he's going to be spending quite a bit of combat pool just to get a hit in. the girls will wear out his combat pool, then start getting in L hits.

On what grounds do they have a base damage of S?

Unarmed combat is Str(M) stun.

If the girl scouts are doing StrS stun then they are augmented girl scouts.
If they're doing StrS damage, then they have killing hands.. which is a whole new ballgame.

That's 4-6 successes required to soak. The Adept throwing 6 dice at target 8 is liable to get 1 success, 5/6 of the time, for average of 5. Throwing 6 dice body gives average 5 successes. 100% soak.

This is based on a 1/6 chance at getting a single 6 out of 6 dice, followed by a 5/6 chance at NOT getting a 1 on the second toss.

The girl scouts on the other hand, have a 1/3 chance at getting at least one 1..
mfb
yes. Str(M) base, staged up with 2 successes for Str(S). unlike ranged combat, you stage the damage up first from the attacker's successes, then soak based on the staged damage. so, the girl scouts get 2 successes, and the adept will get 0 more often than not. that means he needs 6 successes to soak that to nothing, which is not possible for him to accomplish without combat pool (in the original example, the adept has 5 body). his combat pool's going to get eaten up, and then he's going to start taking L wounds.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Now we just need to pit 5 Girl Scouts with Hold-out pistols against a troll with a Panther Cannon. Then our data will be complete...

*inserts spooky Darth Vadar voice*
Dawnshadow
The adept will get 1 success, more often then not.

6 dice has a VERY high probability of giving 1 six, which in turn is VERY likely to give a 2 or better.

Or, alternatively, the probability of the adept NOT scoring any 6 or above is:
5^6/6^6
with the probability of the six becoming a 7, instead of an 8->12, as 1/6

for the probabilty of the adept having no successes as:
5^6/6^7
which is 0.0558, or approximately 6%.

Similarly, the girl scouts only have a 69% chance at scoring 2 successes. (5/6 * 5/6) 5 successes on the body test for the adept to soak.

They've got a 13% chance at having 1 success, which is 4 sucesses on the adepts body test to soak.

They've additionally got a 3% chance of botching entirely (since that's the only way they can get no successes.
John Campbell
In ten years of SCA fighting, I've been in a lot of large-scale melees, involving all sorts of local and general mismatches in numbers, at all sorts of skill levels. I've been an adept, and I've been a girl scout.

My experience is that one good fighter can cut his way through a rabble in any numbers. If they engage him as individuals, they're toast.

But two newbie fighters who are barely competent to throw a good blow, but who stick together and move as a team are an even match for anyone. Three newbie fighters who stick together and move as a team will slaughter any single combatant they come across.

My only problem with the Friends in Melee rule is that it doesn't make any attempt to account for the ability to work together being a learned skill, which it most assuredly is. I'm thinking that it might make sense to have the maximum benefit capped by the group's best melee skill or Small Unit Tactics skill.
mfb
those probabilities change rapidly once the adept takes an L wound--which given the number of times in a round those odds will be tested, he's more than likely going to. next round, his TN to hit and counter will be 9, and he might have taken out one of the girls. that makes it even more likely he'll take an L wound or two, and less likely that he'll take out another girl scout. even if he does, on the third round he's still at TN 8, meaning he'll probably take another L, putting him at TN 9 again. the odds continue to go down from there.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (mfb)
those probabilities change rapidly once the adept takes an L wound--which given the number of times in a round those odds will be tested, he's more than likely going to. next round, his TN to hit and counter will be 9, and he might have taken out one of the girls. that makes it even more likely he'll take an L wound or two, and less likely that he'll take out another girl scout. even if he does, on the third round he's still at TN 8, meaning he'll probably take another L, putting him at TN 9 again. the odds continue to go down from there.

Just ran it twice here... Adept won both times, first with taking a culmulative moderate wound, second with taking nothing.

Second was a more accurate test, based on an adept with:

Body 6
Quick 6
Str 6
Cha 4
Int 4
Will 4

brawling 6, level 3 improved reflexes, and 7 combat pool. Total init: 11+4d6 (for 3 actions a round the majority of the time)

Girl scouts: 2's for physical, 3's for mental. skill 1, 4 combat pool, total init 3+1d6

First fight ( the one with the moderate wound on the adept) had him starting out engaged in melee, and only taking 1 attack on the girl scouts

Second fight.. well.. adept started out dropping a girl scout, and it took about 5 turns to take out them all.

Which is kindof disturbing, I was hoping he'd fail to soak at least once

Likewise, the girl scouts botched I think 3 times over it..
BitBasher
Remember if a girl scout rolls a single one with a skill of one they botch.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Remember if a girl scout rolls a single one with a skill of one they botch.

I was having them always throwing 2 dice (4 combat pool) so it was both 1's.. if it's only a single 1 then the fight would have been over a lot faster..
mfb
okay. it was also run in the original test, and the girl scouts won. that's 1:1. the second test fits right in with the argument i've been maintaining all along: it shouldn't take an adept to whup some girl scouts.

edit: only if the girls aren't using combat pool, bitbasher. if they are--and given the low skill, they ough to be--they'd need to roll two 1s. easily possible, but not probable--it'll probably happen what, once or twice in one five-round combat?
BitBasher
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 15 2005, 07:39 PM)
Remember if a girl scout rolls a single one with a skill of one they botch.

I was having them always throwing 2 dice (4 combat pool) so it was both 1's.. if it's only a single 1 then the fight would have been over a lot faster..

That's an optional rule which I use. If the number of ones on a test meets or exceeds the base dice then it's a botch. I find it a nice limiting factor.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 15 2005, 07:41 PM)
okay. it was also run in the original test, and the girl scouts won. that's 1:1. the second test fits right in with the argument i've been maintaining all along: it shouldn't take an adept to whup some girl scouts.

What did the adept have that couldn't be duplicated by a starting Sam?

Don't know how a decker/rigger/mage would have done. I've never set up a basic one, just magician-adept or Sam, and both of those would have done quite a bit better. Improved invisibility does wonders, even when you're defaulting to strength to fight unarmed.

Edit: BitBasher -- if that rule was applied the girl scouts would have been down in 2 rounds easy. I think I rolled 20 or so 1's over the melee on their side.
theartthief
Just a quick note on the reality of the EP and the Girl Scout Troop.

In Lima, Peru there are street gangs of the under twelve crowds called piranas (yes, named after the flesh eating fish) that can easily take down a grown man and hand him any body part they choose. They often simply take his wallet, coat and shoes. Since this happens in RL, why not SR?

Oh, and yes, I have spent time in Peru, but no, I was never attacked by gradeschoolers.

- theartthief
Kanada Ten
All the adept needs to do is inflict a Light wound to drop each girl from combat. Unless these are highly motivated girls, in which case a moderate. Using a multi strike the adept will likely remove two girls from combat before Friends in Melee even takes effect.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
All the adept needs to do is inflict a Light wound to drop each girl from combat. Unless these are highly motivated girls, in which case a moderate. Using a multi strike the adept will likely remove two girls from combat before Friends in Melee even takes effect.

Would have been over very fast then too... I was fighting until knockout.
GrinderTheTroll
We said, BUY MORE COOKIES DAMNIT!!
Rev
QUOTE (theartthief @ Feb 16 2005, 12:51 AM)
In Lima, Peru there are street gangs of the under twelve crowds called piranas (yes, named after the flesh eating fish) that can easily take down a grown man and hand him any body part they choose.  They often simply take his wallet, coat and shoes.  Since this happens in RL, why not SR?

I suspect there is a large difference between a girlscout and a peruvian street kid in combat skills, motivation, and weaponry. I definately would not give myself the same odds against them. Just as there is a large difference between me and an inhumanly skilled or strong sr charachter.

I don't think any of the rules being discussed would let the average wageslave doofus win a fight with a handful of tough kids, but maybe it should be different with a cybernetically or magically enhanced expert killer who might well have grown up as a kid like that.

Now a gang of street urchin muggers in shadowrun could quite easily include orks, in which a 12 year old might not be so small and weak compared to an adult.

The in game problem with friends in melee that I have actually seen more than once is the astral weenie swarm exploit. Where a mage or shaman summons numerous force 1 watchers and maybe one larger thing to take out a much more powerful spirit.

Ah I have also seen the players exploiting friends in melee repeatedly, especially when a couple mundane charachters help a magical one to take out a spirit even though thier blows are pinging off its inveulnerability.

QUOTE

Oh, and yes, I have spent time in Peru, but no, I was never attacked by gradeschoolers.

- theartthief


Whew!
mfb
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
What did the adept have that couldn't be duplicated by a starting Sam?

nothing. but it shouldn't take a sam, either. an unmodified, trained human should be more than capable of taking on a pack of girl scouts.

QUOTE (theartthief)
Since this happens in RL, why not SR?

those kids probably had a bit more than 1 point of skill.
Kanada Ten
[In actual use, a highly trained mundane] can simply use Intimidation before combat starts. *POOF* No more Girl Scouts.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
What did the adept have that couldn't be duplicated by a starting Sam?

nothing. but it shouldn't take a sam, either. an unmodified, trained human should be more than capable of taking on a pack of girl scouts.

QUOTE (theartthief)
Since this happens in RL, why not SR?

those kids probably had a bit more than 1 point of skill.

Probably could. It would have taken a LOT longer than 5 turns, but it could have been done. It's less likely though.

Unmodified, trained human would be likely to have stats more in line with human average.. 4's and 5's across, rather than 6's in physical.. and wouldn't have the high initiative score to go before the girl scouts as a matter of course.
Tziluthi
Maybe only one modifier should apply. Instead of creating six point disparities, only one (ie. + or -) modifier should apply. Against equally skilled opponents, a +4 modifier is still able to kill you, but you still have a chance to get in a lucky shot if there is a high skill discrepancy. Although I tend to agree with the sentiment behind the original rule, this should definitely put an end to the mass of physad beatings by girl scouts.
shadow_scholar
QUOTE (John Campbell)
In ten years of SCA fighting, I've been in a lot of large-scale melees, involving all sorts of local and general mismatches in numbers, at all sorts of skill levels. I've been an adept, and I've been a girl scout.

My experience is that one good fighter can cut his way through a rabble in any numbers. If they engage him as individuals, they're toast.

But two newbie fighters who are barely competent to throw a good blow, but who stick together and move as a team are an even match for anyone. Three newbie fighters who stick together and move as a team will slaughter any single combatant they come across.

My only problem with the Friends in Melee rule is that it doesn't make any attempt to account for the ability to work together being a learned skill, which it most assuredly is. I'm thinking that it might make sense to have the maximum benefit capped by the group's best melee skill or Small Unit Tactics skill.

w3rd!! As a former Amtgarder (poor man's SCA) with 8 years of stick fighting exp. I wholeheartedly agree. Just fighting two people of significantly lesser skill is a huge challenge if they have you surrounded and attack simultaneously. Turn that number up to 3+ and you're toast.
Lafcadio
I think the problem with the example of the girl scouts ultimately comes down to the reach difference. If there is only a difference of 2-3 inches between combatants, it still makes a huge difference in the fight. With the girl scouts duking it out with the physically elite adept I would think this would become even more pronounced, perhaps an average of a 4-6 inch reach difference, but the rules only cover reach for weapons, or metas that tower over the normal human by a meter or more. If instead you insert an average height cubical accountant that gets tired walking two blocks to the bus stop and gets uncomfortable carrying his 15 pound breif-case to work fighting along with his tofu sampling club against the adept, it still sounds like an ass-whooping for the tofu aficianados, but not as silly/unlikely as with the girl-scouts. Getting too complicated with the rules will slow things down too much, but try adding a -1 TN for the shorties, which is quite realistic, and it may take things out of the "ridiculous" range and into the "tolerable" range.
GentlemanLoser
Just incase people have been skipping the first page. wink.gif

"Another thought. Maybe the multiple opponent penalty shouldn't been applied unless your multiple opponents are trained at attacking a target as a team and/or delay thier attacks until they all attack on the same initiatve score.

A group of kids attacking one after another isn't that scary.

But a group of kids working as a team to take you down is..."
Apathy
When I originally created the prior post, I was asking for feedback on a possible home-made rule I was considering:

Proposed rule: A combatant can ignore friends in melee modifiers by choosing to attack just one opponent out of the group. However, if he does this he cannot defend against any attacks from the other opponents. In this case he can't use his melee skill or his combat pool when being attacked, but he can try to soak the damage with a body roll.

If I remember correctly, the first scenario I talked about was more 'realistic', with a troll pitted against a group of humanis thugs with clubs. Then the troll gets to make a choice: "Fighting 1 vs 4, I'll never hit any of them, but if I just try to throttle one, maybe I can take him down before the others can beat me unconscious..."

The most common scenario I see this cropping up in game is the watcher attack pack.

The girl scout scenario came up later when I tried to take the scenario down the slippery slope to an absurd degree.

The proposed home rule didn't get very good reviews, so I decided not to use it in my games, but I'd like to hear anyone's suggestions on a better variation.
Dawnshadow
I suggested that rule as an option actually.. I like it myself?

The girl scout example is fun.. you'd need another half dozen girl scouts I'd think to actually slaughter the adept, maybe another dozen though.
Rev
The only change I would suggest is that the charachter be able to ignore any number of opponants, and defend against any number, not just one. So if they are fighting two security guards and two girl scouts they can ignore the girl scouts and fight the security guards with a single friend in combat modifier.

I think it would work great.

Ahh, you also have to prevent them from switching who they are ignoring whenever they want. For example you don't want them to be able to fight everyone for thier first phase, then ignore some people who have no more actions for the rest of the round. Make them choose who to ignore at the start of the round, or something like that.
James McMurray
I don't think there's a need for any house rules at all. All you need is a GM that knows not to bother running a fight with girl scouts versus adepts (or anyone with high unarmed). Then you're left with only having to use the rules when they make sense: against enemies that are actually a threat.
DrJest
I think John hit it on the head with his comments on training making the difference in massed attacks. I don't have his level of qualification (for the record, I'd say in Silat terms I've got around Pentjak Silat 3-4 with the whirling manoeuvre - they teach you that kind of movement pretty much as soon as you start training in the silat form I studied) but I've been a student for about three years and done my share of bar brawling as well.

The average group of antagonists don't attack as one. I know it's popular to pooh-pooh the Hollywoodism of "everybody attack one after the other", and it's a massive exaggeration, but with untrained opponents they really do tend to attack in a sort of ragged, staggered way. This is, if I understand it correctly, because they have to build themselves up to the attack. Fighting a group of five or six (which is never advised, btw, so don't think I'm backing the "invulnerable martial arts master" path) you'll get probably two at most moving at the same time. Granted the hang time between "waves" is tiny, but it can be enough to make a difference, especially if the defender comes up with a display of massive and ruthless ultraviolence on the first attacker in. The best advice I ever got for facing more than one person (assuming retreat isn't an option) was "pick the biggest one, hit him as hard as you can with the biggest thing you can." If you're lucky, you might make them rethink the situation. And if you're unlucky, well, at least you got your licks in.

It all falls apart on the defender when his attackers have training, especially if they've trained together. Now they don't have that psychological need to build up for the attack and they have a good idea how to exploit each others' movements.

I like John's idea of having the Friends in Melee modifier limited by the skill (combat or tactical) of the enemy. I also like not applying FiM for anyone who hasn't had their action yet, since it reflects the ragged attack pattern - it's a short-duration thing anyway, they'll all be engaged after one turn.

Incidentally, whirling really does work very well. I expect anyone who hasn't seen something like it in operation will find it hard to believe, but watching the sparring matches between our teacher and three or four of the more advanced students was an exercise in humility eek.gif
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