 Character Critique, Three variations on a shifter |
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 Feb 19 2005, 02:45 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 392 Joined: 13-January 05 From: Forgot where his meat body was Member No.: 6,971  |
Eh... I'd allow unarmed(bite) personally, but slap a person using the specialization with a -1 to reach.
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Feb 19 2005, 03:37 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
How is that different from any other specialization? If they specialize in using a specific item, fine, if they have a choice, they're 'always' going to use it/have it with them. Beyond that, for this specific case.. specialized in punching leaves you with a serious vulnerability to: -wound affects to the arm/hand -having something expensive/important/delicate in your hands when you get attacked -handcuffs (can kick, headbutt, elbow, knee.. but punching is vastly harder) -someone who uses kicking techniques a lot -anyone who has similar skill and reach Seems like enough 'vulnerabilities' to me. Most of them are fairly small, but then again, most specializations aren't easy to exploit. And handcuffs don't apply to anyone using a single weapon -- can't use two, but you can use the one. Forgot to mention: Cyber-implant combat, specializes to specific implant. Wouldn't that be just as cheap? But, why would someone with handblades spend a lot of time learning to fight with hand razors? |
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Feb 19 2005, 03:46 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Unarmed (Fists) = Unarmed (Boxing) = Unarmed (Martial Arts Style)
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Feb 19 2005, 07:28 PM
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#29
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
CC RULES FREAKING SUCK! BOYCOTT! ;) |
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Feb 19 2005, 11:29 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Those aren't CC rules. SR3 p. 86, Unarmed combat; specialisations Subduing Combat, Martial Arts Technique or by body part (fists, head butts, kick). CC went on to offer a conversion break to anyone who took a martial arts specialisation when converting to CC styles.
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Feb 19 2005, 11:36 PM
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#31
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Well, I can see all your points, but I still say its cheap.
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Feb 20 2005, 08:13 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
I kinda thought the point of specializing was that is was cheap.
With the exception of Clubs (used for just about all makeshift melee weapons), I really don't see many Combat Skills that provide meaningful advantage to a character for avoiding Specializations. |
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Feb 20 2005, 10:10 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
Well, a heavy weapons specialist isn't usually going to be as good as a non specialized version, due to the large variety of heavy weapons, I would say.
JaronK |
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Feb 20 2005, 12:17 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
I suppose that there are less instances when you can be concievably deprived of using your specialized fists, instead of say, a Predator, but the GMs I've played under have allowed it so... whatever that's worth.
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Feb 20 2005, 09:12 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Normally, I would consider unarmed combat specialization to be less cheesy than most specializations, because there are two kinds of unarmed attacks you can normally make - a normal melee attack, or subduing combat. If you specialize in a type of melee attack, that means you get to roll less dice for subduing combat.
Unfortunately, though, they list subduing combat as a specialization, but don't describe how it works until Cannon Companion. So the distinction between melee and subduing combat will only come up for GMs who have Cannon Companion, but don't use the optional martial art rules. |
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Feb 20 2005, 11:59 PM
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#36
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Specializing in subduing combat is alright, but I maintain that specializing in your fists is cheese.
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Feb 21 2005, 02:44 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
If they're going to specialize in fists, let them specialize in fists. It only makes sense with the rest of the entire specialization system. You specialize pistols in, say Ares Predator, you specialize UC in punching. Just like you can be caught without a Predator around, you can be put in a situation where you just can't punch. Most of the time, though, you're gonna have that Predator at your side, and most of the time you're going to be able to smack people about with your hands.
Think of it this way, the guy with just UC is fairly adept in all aread, can punch, kick and headbutt when the situation arises with equal facility. A guy who's specialized in punching can throw a really good shot, put his weight into it, follow through, he's got it down, but when he kicks he's off balance, his aim's not so good and the follow through is lousy compared to what he can do with his hands. God forbid this guy gets into a wrestling match, where he'll have no room to punch out, or even worse, when two goons hold his arms so a third can beat on him, he won't be able to kick his way out of it as well as the UC generalist. Same goes for every other specialization there is. A Pistols generalist can pick up any pistol-style gun and start shooting things with no problems. A Predator specialist has been training for long amounts of time with just that one type of gun, and he knows it and its quirks inside out and backwards, which way it pulls, the force of its recoil, the feel of the grip, the action of the slide, everything. He picks up another gun and while the basics of aim and shoot still apply, he's lost that familiarity, he's in a situation where he's expecting (consciously or subconsciously) the weapon to pull one way with so much force, but it goes another with a different amount of force, and it throws him off his game just enough to loose those dice. Specializations make total sense in this way, and are in no way cheese. |
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Feb 21 2005, 07:07 AM
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#38
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Okay then, we'll have a guy who specializes in kicks. So in your example, he's doing fine. If theres ever a point in combat where you don't have access to your legs, you're probably screwed no matter what.
Or then why specialize in fists? Just specialize in "Karate" and say you're always doing karate. (This would be pre-CC rules) |
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Feb 21 2005, 09:02 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 28-January 05 From: Phoenix, Arizona Member No.: 7,030 |
IMHO Shapeshifters are really fun, but they are also walking timebombs. Something to keep in mind, thier ability to look completely human relies on thier willpower which get's tested every time a high emotion of passion, anger, or fear, might dominate thier mind. Unfortunately when a shapeshifter shifts voluntarily from thier Human form to thier Animal for it's not just physical, it's Psychological as well, where Passion, Anger, and Fear Rule.
Unlike the Myth, a Shapeshifter doesn't only shift on the Full Moon, they can shift at anytime they please, but on the Full Moon, they have no choice but to go full form eventually. |
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Feb 21 2005, 09:22 AM
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#40
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
What game are you playing?
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Feb 21 2005, 09:24 AM
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#41
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Fortunately, there is nothing to say that shapeshifters MUST obey their animal instincts or that their animal side take over when they shift. There is no canon game mechanic to support that.
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Feb 21 2005, 10:53 AM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
Other people have beat me to the punch, but yeah, a resounding 'huh?' for Weredigo's post. That's the first I've heard of anything about a full moon.
I see playing a shifter as being something more than an animal, but less than a man. Because of it's enhanced intellectual capacity, only under rare circumstances will a shifter go completly wild, while at the same time, it will usually have a much more immediate, instinctual, and primal response than a normal human would (I.E an easier provocation to violence, etc). FYI, I played around with the Adept's stats some more. I lowered Ettiqutte and Negotiations, and took two ranks for each in Improved Ability. I then used the extra points to redo the attribute scores. |
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Feb 21 2005, 12:10 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Yep. Entirely legal and even specified within the rules. Truly, there is no reason not to specialise in unarmed combat since they made Cyber Implant Weaponry a separate skill. |
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Feb 21 2005, 03:54 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 28-January 05 From: Phoenix, Arizona Member No.: 7,030 |
I find the Vampires and Were-critters presented in canon to be rather boring. So instead I use WhiteWolfs versions, all wonderfully translated to D6. |
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Feb 21 2005, 03:57 PM
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#45
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You think Regeneration is boring? Wow.
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Feb 21 2005, 04:16 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 28-January 05 From: Phoenix, Arizona Member No.: 7,030 |
Nah, Whitewolf's got Regeneration as well, canon just presents them too much as "just animals" or "just infected" and doesn't go into thier different cultures.
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Feb 21 2005, 04:46 PM
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#47
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Dungeons & Darknessrun!
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Feb 21 2005, 06:07 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
That would be missing the point. Pre-CC, you can specialize in whatever you want, martial art, punch, kick, bite, whatever. You're still going to find yourself in a situation where such things cannot be used. First, not having access to your legs doesn't screw you, it just makes you much less effective, much like the punching specialist in my example is much less effective when he can't use his fists. That's specialization, and if you've trained in ways to handle such situations (as a UC generalist would have), then you're at no disadvantage, but no advantage either. Which is what I said above, repeated and reworded. Second, taking a specialization in Karate would mean that you're using Karate tactics and Karate rules. If a player wants to do this, than they and the GM should know at least the general feel of those tactics. Maybe hitting google for a bit and figuring out what Karate is all about vs. say, Capoeira. Then set out which situations Karate would be ineffective or unusable in (such as an unexpected wrestling match, or when the player's hands are tied behind their back. Karate is a lot of blocking and a few quick strikes, and requires a good deal of mobility. Sure you can Karate-kick when you can't use your hands, but you're not trained for it, and you're likely to fall on your ass afterwards when you can't balance yourself.) Martial arts pre-CC are up to GM discretion, as always, and the GM is free to disallow, or rule that a particular martial art is basically a specialization in punching or kicking (e.g. "Capoiera is basically a specialization in kicking, so take that instead for ease of reference"). After CC, just use the martial Arts rules, that's what they're made for. There are plenty of reasons not to specialize, and versatility is one of them. Sadistic GM's are another. To reiterate: Specializing gives you an advantage in one area, and a disadvantage in ALL others. That's the rule, use it. |
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Feb 21 2005, 06:23 PM
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#49
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Because they don't HAVE different cultures, that's the point! not everything is a conspiracy! |
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Feb 22 2005, 12:15 AM
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#50
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
I'll second Bitbasher's sentiment. In SR, shapeshifters don't have cultures because they're animals, that by a fluke of magic possess an enhanced intellect (compared to regular animals) and the ability to change shape. That seems to be different in your game, but if you're going to make stuff up whole clothe, you need to make mention of that fact, so everyone else isn't left scratching their heads going "WTF is he talking about?" As to the whole fists thing, I don't really care that much for the martial arts rules. In the games I've played, we've always used just the standard melee set, so specializing in fists, or feet, or head, or whatever was not out of place. If you don't like it, that's your perogitiave. At this point I simply feel that there is nothing more constructive to be offered on this particular topic. |
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