 Character Critique, Three variations on a shifter |
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 Feb 22 2005, 02:40 AM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 28-January 05 From: Phoenix, Arizona Member No.: 7,030  |
For those who were scratchin thier heads those two beginings of the posts should have tipped ya off that something was being borrowed from another system, and given a "whole cloth" tweak.
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Feb 22 2005, 03:11 AM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 7-February 05 Member No.: 7,063 |
Considering that this was your first post on the matter, I don't feel that everyone had just cause to know you were inserting non-cannon elements (aside from the head scratching factor.) IMHO means "In my honest opinion." I've had plenty of honest opinions about things in the Shadowrun canon books, and that doesn't make them non-canon. You could have just as easily said "IMHO canon shapchangers are boring." Still an honest opinion (one that you have) but it is about something canon. In short, non-canon material or ways of looking at things are fine, just say that you are using a non-canon stance. As an aside, from reading your posts I have to ask if you've ever tried freeform rpgs. They're probably right up your alley. The formal ones are typically very rules-lite and quick to resolve conflicts. |
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Feb 22 2005, 03:14 AM
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#53
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Weredigo: Just what do you keep from actual Shadowrun canon?
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Feb 22 2005, 03:15 AM
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#54
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Note that there is some evidence of Dragon induced (or indulged or originated) shapeshifter "culture", though to what extent is debatable.
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Feb 22 2005, 03:28 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 7-February 05 Member No.: 7,063 |
Out of curiosity, do you recall where? I've been away from Shadowrun for too long and am only recently getting back into it. I've found that I have a lot of back reading to do. |
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Feb 22 2005, 03:40 AM
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#56
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Kanada Ten could be refering to Drakes, which are detailed in Dragns of the Sixth World and Threats 2.
Edit: Or not! :D |
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Feb 22 2005, 03:41 AM
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#57
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Three places. One, the expected, in Amazonia with Hualpa and his servants (DotSW). Two, Arleesh, while less implicit of culture, also has "pet" shifters (I think DotSW again, Lofwyr chapter?). Notice the dual Feathered Serpents there (I've previously hypothesized that shapeshiters are their versions of Drakes). Finally, a possible on the Shasta Deer with Hestaby - hell, she has pet Otaku, why not shifters (DotSW)? Of course, I might be exaggerating the word culture.
DotSW = Dragons of the Sixth World |
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Feb 22 2005, 07:25 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 28-January 05 From: Phoenix, Arizona Member No.: 7,030 |
Sounds just as groovy as First Edition Shadowrun, which is simply based on D6, and only has Three NPC's that the Game Master should know like the back of his hand...
The Basic Timeline and all it's effects on the world, cyberware, bioware, Shamans and thier restrictions, Hermetics and thier flexibilities, the political/financial conflict between all the different Megacorps and all the different governments of the world, the weapons found in StreetSam Catalogue and Fields of fire (have no Cannon Companion yet), The NPC's I've read about in the Novels of Shadowrun, The Dragons and thier Machinations, intrigue, and conspiracies, Insect Totems and thier nastiness, Names and Colors of Gangs, The Yakuza, Italian Mafia, and Triad, and most importantly the REALISM, though you'd have to sit in on a game either as a player or "peanut gallery" to understand. At the moment my give a damn is busted, if you don't like an idea I present in a post or a topic, oh well fraggin ignore it, or get smarmy, or bash away at me, I could care less. If however something I post as a reply or in one of my topics gives you the slightest teensy weensy lil bit of an idea on how to improve upon your own game, you're welcome. |
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Feb 22 2005, 08:31 AM
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#59
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
From teleportation, to the ripoff of WoD, to the "rolling percentile for Karma", to the 20 Attribute base, I see very little that involves any sort of Realism in the campaigns that you've described. Every time I read them, I think "This person really needs to play Rifts". |
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Feb 22 2005, 08:46 AM
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#60
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Here some semi-useful links on tigers...
Project Tiger About the Indian Tiger Tiger Stalking Sounds like your guy is going to have some trouble getting along with the rest of the team, or having them come back to his place for beer... |
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Feb 22 2005, 11:00 AM
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#61
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Obviously your 'give a damn' is not busted, or you wouldn't get so worked up about it. Your definition of 'realism' and mine are apparently quite different. :please: |
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Feb 22 2005, 11:08 AM
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#62
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Welcome to the real world. ;) |
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Feb 22 2005, 03:36 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
What? All shapeshifters have the SAME cultures and that is just a stripped down barbaric human model? No, then they DO have different cultures, unless you mean that no shapeshifters can be considered a species or to group together. The thing is canon is damn sketchy if you aren't human or elf. |
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Feb 22 2005, 04:32 PM
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#64
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Actually shapeshifter's AREN'T a species in that manner really. A shapeshifter is a genetic abberation of the normal base animal of the type that is born to the base animal of the type. They don't have shapeshifter colonies, befcause shapeshifters are a subset of, and are a part of the original animal cultures. Except of course, those that leave their family and become shadowrunners. ;)
Im not sure what the point is here, there's never been an edition of SR that has used anything other than a d6 including the current one.
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Feb 22 2005, 04:34 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
They've got lots of different cultures. It's just a waste to add them into the space, because the cultures would quite logically be ... the same culture as the animal. Since that's what the shapeshifters are.. animals. They have the ability to appear human. That's the only difference -- so.. wolf shapeshifters would follow the pack mentality. Lion the pride. If the creature is solitary then the shapeshifter would be solitary.
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Feb 22 2005, 04:38 PM
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#66
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
To have culture, you have to have a sufficient critical mass of population, I think that's the point that is trying to be made. Shapeshifters, by the way they are defined in Shadowrun, don't have little colonies of shapeshifters... they live and breed with mundane animals of the same type. I suppose one can call that a culture, but it wouldn't be a "Shapeshifter culture" as implied by some of the above posts. |
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Feb 22 2005, 04:42 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
So they do have different cultures then, but what intruges me is, who/what do they want to make babies with? If it were other 'shifters then fairly soon we will have colonies, abet, small ones. Because I haven't included any 'shifters in my games or played alongside one, I've never boned on them, do they have to appear sapien sapien in humanoid form or can they resemble other (meta)humans? |
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Feb 22 2005, 04:44 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
The critical mass for a culture is only a few families, how true do 'shifters breed? |
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Feb 22 2005, 04:45 PM
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#69
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
They breed with other creatures of their base type, which IIRC the vast majority of the time makes normal mundane creatures.
According to the descriptions and all materials I have read, only sapiens sapiens. No metavariants.
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Feb 22 2005, 05:15 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Is that implicit or explicit inference? I mean do the descriptions and materials only mention sapiens sapiens form or do they actually say no non-sapiens sapiens forms? So, they breed with their base type animal, but what do they want to make babies with. You know, the animals and humans just aren't going to understand all of the 'shifters needs. Edited to expand a point. Just looking at sex from a female cat 'shifter's POV. In human form they have a nice range of of erogeanous zones and multiple orgasm capability, but in cat form the male's barbed penis causes pain on withdrawal to trigger ovulation. Indulging in the act for itself kinda points to one form over the over. |
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Feb 22 2005, 05:23 PM
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#71
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Yes, it explicitly says that can take human form. Never is it stated anywhere that they can take metahuman form. Also, using the novels for info they return to the wild to breed. Look at it this way, they cannot breed with humans anymore than their base animal can. They are not human by any stretch of the imagination. They are not genetically compatible. They aren't even the same species. They don't have a choice, they cannot make babies with metahumanity. They are not metahumans. Just because someone can do a good imitation of a cat doesn't make them want to go breed with cats unless they have some serious mental issues. Fundamentally all they are is an animal doing an imitation of a human.
Er no, they do not become human, they just appear human. There is no guarantee that they have sex for the fun of it any more than the animal does, in fact that's counterintuitive.
Remember they are not a human, They never become human, they are always, at best, a cat wearing a human suit. |
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Feb 22 2005, 05:32 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
That is explicitly can take human form, but not explicitly that they cannot take meta-human form and using the novels as an exhustive reference source is never a good idea. By return to wild, does it mean to breed only with animals or could it just cover the fact that they like outdoor relationships? How good is the form imitation? It is maagic after all.
Bestiality, seems to be plenty of porn around that features human animal sex. |
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Feb 22 2005, 05:43 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Appear human? What, is it just an illusion placed over an animal form or shapeshifting into a human form beacuae the second option is a significant change to the skeletal structure and that would necessitate a change in the nervous system. 'shifters are not just an animal in a different shape they are a very intelligent animal hybrid which is capable of using its human-analogue intelligence to do a pretty good planned-reward thought routine. Please explain how it is counter-intuitive, because I don't see how it is contrary to what common sense would suggest. Many, many species of animal are "on-heat" driven yet have endulge in sexual practices out side of this, I mean, even penguins use prostitution. If it can speak human, it can think human. |
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Feb 22 2005, 06:03 PM
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#74
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Well, it says unambiguously that they can take human form. It specifically says human in the section about them changing forms. If they could take other forms than human those would have been listed. The book states what form they can take, and that is human. Since it also doesn't say they can't take on the form of a Chevy Impala, does the book imply they can? No. because the book told what they can change into and metahuman wasn't it.
Not the same species. Not genetically compatible.
Which also doesn't make babies, nor involve well adjusted people.
The changes are irrelevant, they retain vestigal traces of their animal form even while looking like a human. Fox shapeshifters for example retain their tail. They are an animal that mimics a human, not the other way around.
That's an incorrect use of the word hybrid. Shapoeshifters arte not a hybrid at all, they are zero parts human. None. They are an animal that can appear as if it was human.
Actually I'd like to see links to support this, only a small handful of animals on earth that procreate for pleasure, mainly humans and dolphins. Allow me to quote the Critters book:
Breeding with your own species is a normal habit of their animal form. Humping other entire species is not.
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Feb 22 2005, 06:37 PM
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#75
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
My only reference for shifter sexual behaviour comes from the short story in the original Into The Shadows collection concerning a weretiger by the name of Striper (I think she got her own book later - anyone?). She indulged in human sexual liaisons, particularly with male prostitutes. I like to view shifters as individuals. Some of them may have an entirely animal viewpoint, using their human forms rarely if ever; others may adapt to the human form well and even prefer being "human". Pigeonholing shifters into one category is, I feel, overly restrictive. |
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