 Bursts and Full-Autofire, heretic thoughts and house rule |
  |
 Feb 22 2005, 06:48 PM
Post
#51
|
|||
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086  |
Core rules only for cyberware. Delta grade.: 6 points in body. +5 bonus body (troll) +1 dermal (natural) +2 titanium bone lacing +3 dermal plating +1 2 cyberarms +2 2 cyberlegs -- 20 body. (Can ony be done with deltaware -- takes 7.75 essence as a base) Edges: bonus attribute point (body) exceptional attribute (body) 21 body +6 body added over play (up to attribute maximum) Gives a total of 27 body possible with the stuff I have right here.. don't know about other bodyboosting cyberware/bioware. Edit: Flip side -- Why isn't body 15 impressive? Because you can get a lot more? Impressive isn't just what's 'the peak of possible' but just plain RARE... and you don't see many people with body 15. At all. Shoot.. how many trolls do you see with body 15? |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Feb 22 2005, 06:50 PM
Post
#52
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
But you do need to be a good shot to get a better result with full-auto than you'd get with a single shot or a three-round burst, which is something the rules do model, after a fashion. If you can't compensate for the barrel climb, and aren't shooting at someone at very short range, you'll be hard pressed to get more then two or three rounds on target. At least if we're talking about hand-held assault rifle sized weapons - things are (presumably, all my full-auto experience has been with ARs and SMGs) going to work differently with a 15 pound light machine gun on a bipod. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 22 2005, 06:54 PM
Post
#53
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Just to be picky, it works as betaware too (just not standard or alpha). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 22 2005, 07:01 PM
Post
#54
|
|||
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
15 body isn't impressive because it isn't gonna keep anything alive unless that thing also has a boatload of armor. Body in SR is not a trump card because of the dimishing returns of throwing extra dice at a test as the TN gets higher. High body will not save a tactically challenged NPC.
The key is not to change rules, but to have the NPC be less stupid. Unlike video games in SR one vs party boss fights don't freaking work. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 22 2005, 07:15 PM
Post
#55
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
It'll resist almost anything wielded in melee by a normal human (exceptions being things like shock weapons, venom, etc). Normal human-- someone with average skill, average strength. Now.. if you apply the normal armour used in the games I'm playing.. (armoured vest with plates, under a secure long coat) That's 15 dice, + combat pool, with ballistic 6 and impact 4... which does a lot. And even body 30 doesn't help if you're running around with only the cyberware for armour and some runner/goon opens up on you with a boatload of successes.. -1 power just doesn't help a lot against a 7 success 11S hit (burst with ordinary ammo from an assault rifle).. you're still throwing dice against a target 10. Now, if you apply ordinary armour to any of these high body things, then they ARE impressive. Not because they will soak something like that.. but because they CAN soak it. It may (more likely will) take up karma to do it.. but they can. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 22 2005, 07:59 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
a 15 body isn't impressive? It's two and a half times the maximum uncybered human.
I doubt any of my players have a body over 8, maybe even 6. I'm not wanting to kill the PCs outright. I guess you could say we're running a low power game, but I tend to respond to my PCs with how much power they bring. Unfortunately, only one of my PCs is intimately familiar with SR, so he was the only one who bought APDS, and he dispensed of the 15 body baddie rather easily with his T-Bolt, whereas the other PCs would have had significant trouble with him. I'm just going to have to find a way to balance it, I suppose, so the easiest way I think is to just bring back the refreshing die pools, which was a rule I liked, for everyone's benefit, especially the lower power players (who tend to be pacifistic). |
|
|
|
|
Feb 22 2005, 08:05 PM
Post
#57
|
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Just a note that dermal plating and bone lacing has reduced effectiveness when you are heavily cybered. More than 2 cyberlimbs, you start to take rating reductions, per p33 of Man and Machine.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 22 2005, 08:09 PM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Ah. I don't have M&M. How much are the penalties?
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 22 2005, 08:11 PM
Post
#59
|
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
2 Cyberlimbs/torso: No change
3 Cyberlimbs/torso: -1 Body/Armor for each individual ware (i.e. Plastic Bone Lacing becomes worthless) 4 Cyberlimbs/torso: -2 Body/Armor 5 or more: Full body replacement (at this point). No bonuses from any other ware. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 22 2005, 08:31 PM
Post
#60
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Actually, it's under one and a half times. Uncybered human maximum is 11. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 22 2005, 08:34 PM
Post
#61
|
|||||
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Damn, beat me to it. :P |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 22 2005, 08:39 PM
Post
#62
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
In other words, you need to drop the Cyberarms. Now replace Dermal Plating-3 with Dermal Sheath-3 and you're standing at 6.35 Essence and still a BOD of 20. Get the TBL and DS-3 as Alpha and you're looking at 5.48 Essence and a measly price of 345k. Add a Suprathyroid Gland for 50k and 1.4 Bio, taking you up to BOD 21 (actually, add Suprathyroid before the cyber, so you don't get into problems with "natural attribute augmentation").
Then get crazy with Cyberlimb Armor. You can put Ablative-5 on both legs for 70k, netting you B4/I4 without any worn armor. To make you sure you get less penalties from the armor, use only the Bonus Attr Point on BOD (taking you up to 22) and the Exceptional Attribute Edge for QUI. Maxing QUI at chargen you get 5, +1 from Supra, and then get Muscle Toner-3 for 75k and 1.2 Bio (taking you up to 2.6 Bio total). You now have a QUI of 9 and can wear an Armored Jacket for 9/7 and no penalties. What will it be, GMs, can he also wear a Form-Fitting Full Suit for 11/7 with no penalties? Or is it just 7/5 with the Armored Jacket, and no extra for any FF? And do point out any mistakes I made. There are bound to be a few, I'm not a good min/maxer or rules lawyer. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 22 2005, 08:41 PM |
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 01:47 AM
Post
#63
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Why am I suddenly visualizing a little bald kid in Tibetan Monk style robes sitting crosslegged on the floor in front of a pile of bent spoons, saying "Do not try and dodge the bullets, that's impossible. Instead, try to realize the truth." "What truth?" "That having a gun pointed at you is bad. Then you will see that it is not the bullets that you dodge, but the gun." |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 23 2005, 01:51 AM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
when you have MBW-4, you won't have to dodge bullets. you'll slaughter all who oppose you before they can draw their weapons. you'll also be a drooling retard inside a year, but you'll still be less wooden than teh On3!
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 02:52 AM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Edit: What's the question again?
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 02:53 AM
Post
#66
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Woah.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 03:05 AM
Post
#67
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
For people suggesting the highest possibly Body one can grant to a character, here it is. There are no other versions short of unrealistically potent increase cybered attribute(body) spells. This option employs edges, cyberware, bioware, SURGE rules, and genetech:
Race: Troll(Body 11[12]) Edges: 1. Exceptional Body(Body +1) 2. Toughness(Body +0[+1]) Cyberware: 6.35 Essence 1. Bone Lacing(Titanium)(Body +0[+2]) 2. Dermal Sheathing(Rating 3)(Body +0[+4]) 3. Cyberlegs(2)(Body +0[+2]) Bioware: 1.4 Bio Index 1. Suprathyroid Gland Genetech: 1.0 Bio Index 1. Calcitonin(Body +0[+1]) 2. Improved Racial Modified Limit(Body)(Body +1) SURGE: 1. Dermal Deposits(Body +0[+1]) Explanation: Beyond two cyberlimbs, a character starts losing statistics from their other body-increasing implants. Cyberlegs give you the most Body for the buck, so they're the best option for pure damage resistance. This character's body attribute has a racial modified limit of 13, and an attribute maximum of 20. To raise it from a starting value of 13 to a final value of 20 costs 357 good karma. Final Value: Body 21[33] And now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion about autofire. [edit] Oh, and you could actually do this in character creation, short of the karma-increased Body. The Essence and Bio Index work out fine with alphaware and standard bioware. Of course, try starting off a game with a troll that has Body 13(25 for damage resistance), and almost no skills or other attributes to speak of, and see how your GM responds. [/edit] |
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 03:09 AM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
To quote RunnerPaul: "Woah."
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 03:16 AM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Dermal Sheathing removes the natural dermal deposits on a troll's skin. Not sure if you took that into account.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 03:18 AM
Post
#70
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
What about Availability Limits? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 23 2005, 03:21 AM
Post
#71
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't see that in the book, hahnsoo.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 03:24 AM
Post
#72
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Hrm, neither do I. But it makes sense. You are replacing your entire skin with a layer of dermal armor. I'm wondering where I am getting that... maybe in the original sourcebook that dermal sheathing came from. *shrugs* I'll have to figure this out. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 23 2005, 03:33 AM
Post
#73
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
note that dermal sheathing has regenerative properties, though. even if they remove any dermal deposits that exist when the sheathing is implanted doesn't mean the deposits won't grow back--and because the dermal sheathing regenerates, it's likely to regrow around any holes that the dermal deposits poke in it, like a tree growing around a barbed wire fence.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 05:58 AM
Post
#74
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 19-July 04 From: N 42° 43.799'. W 84° 27.901' Member No.: 6,496 |
I would go this route:
Ork (9 body base, 6 quickness base) 2 cyberlegs, obvious: Ballistic and Impact Armor: 10 per limb +2 body +4 ballistic/impact armor (the ballistic rating counts towards the quickness modifier, but it doesn't count as layered armor otherwise) +4 quickness to balance quickness. Delta (1.3 essence) Kevlar Bone Lacing: +1 Body, +1 Ballistic. Delta (0.4 essence) Suprathyroid gland: +1 Body, +1 Quickness, Cultured (1.05 Bio) Orthoskin level 2: +1 impact, +1 ballistic, cultured (0.60 Bio) Muscle Toner 3: +3 Quickness, cultured (0.72 Bio) Platelet Factories: -1 box to physical damage for mod+ wounds, cultured (0.3 Bio) Chemical Gland, internal: Produced 1 dose of anticoagulant / day. Cultured (0.45 bio) Trauma Damper: 1 box of physical damage to stun, cultured (0.3 Bio) Secure Long Coat: +4 ballistic, +1 impact (effectively) Rapid Transit Line Jumpsuit: +1 Ballistic, +4 impact (effectively) Forearm guard: +1 impact in melee Exceptional attribute: Quickness (+1 max quickness) Increased Attribute: Body (+1 body) Toughness (+1 body) Raise body from 11 to 14 with (36+39+42) 117 good karma So, Mr Ork has: 14 (18) body: 9 + (2) + (1) +1 +1 + (1) +3 10 quickness: 6+3+1 11 ballistic armor: 4+1+1+4+1 10(11) impact armor: 4+1+1+4+(1) -2 boxes to wounds of moderate or higher damage, -1 box to light. (with one box of stun for every wound) 4.3 Essence 3.12 Bio Index Leaves about 1.5 essence / Bio to play with And if you replaced the forarm guards with a large riot shield, it'd be 13 ballistic, 13 impact. Best I can do with a guy geared towards surviving physical trauma, off the top of my head. I'm sure there's lots more you could do with it Not quite as impressive cause of the higher grade cyberware and bioware needed though This post has been edited by Endgame50: Feb 23 2005, 06:06 AM |
|
|
|
|
Feb 23 2005, 10:29 AM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Darn. SURGE and Genetech. I'll always be 2 points/ranks behind in any min/maxing competition because I haven't got all the books. :(
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 20th February 2025 - 05:40 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.