 The Science of Magic, Pathagoreans, Renewed Hermetics, Science |
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 Feb 23 2005, 08:11 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672  |
In our group someone we have need of a science baised hermetic.
I read through the magical schools listen in in SOTA:2064, and the Pathagorean school and the Renewed Hermetic School seem to be the most scientific. After reading through their descriptions carefully, I had a few questions, so here we go. Does the Pathagorean view of sacred numbers amount to mysticsm? If magic is science how do you explain astrall quests or totem spirits? Specifically if magic is a science then what rational is there for learning abilities ganing magic through a ritual? I'm not sure how easy it will be to pull of an "Age of reason" style academic mage, but we thought it was interesting. Any advice would be appreciated. |
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Feb 23 2005, 08:15 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 494 Joined: 19-February 05 From: Amazonia Member No.: 7,102 |
I can tell you about Totems. Basically, they are an Astral entity. A living being that lends some of it's power to the shaman to use. They are kind of like the Passions in ED, but they are NOT the sae thing. they don't really talk to people. EDIT: I can't answer some of the other questions because the book stores around here don't carry SR books, so, my copy of 2064 is still in transit. |
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Feb 23 2005, 08:21 PM
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#3
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Or from a Hermetic's perspective, they might merely be a crutch subconsciously employed by the weaker-minded Shaman to facilitate his use of magic. |
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Feb 23 2005, 08:23 PM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the pythagorean view of numbers isn't necessarily mystical. they just believe that everything in the universe can be broken down into numbers; certain numbers come up more frequently. a pythagorean wouldn't say this is mystical, necessarily, though he'd admit that not every explanation has yet been discovered.
a wholly non-mystical view would probably explain both totems and astral quests as products of the subconscious. here's something interesting: compare the pythagorean theorem (heh!) to the social/mathematical theories used by the UB. |
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Feb 23 2005, 08:30 PM
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#5
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The way magic is presented in Shadowrun can be likened to music in a lot of ways. Music is both a science and an art. There are very precise theoretical elements of music that can be reproduced and scientifically examined (harmonics, waveforms, acoustics, etc.). There are many thematic elements of art, religion, culture, and personal beliefs that can fuel a desire to perform music, whether for personal edification or for public performance. Knowing exclusively either the science or the art of music doesn't necessarily make you a good musician. And not everyone has the talent to create music that lasts throughout the ages.
Unlike music, magic (specifically, the magic employed by Sorcery, Conjuring, and adept powers) requires a certain genetic predisposition in order for the metahuman to use it. While some may argue that musical talent is just as rare, anyone can employ and use the trappings of music given enough time and practice. A mage is someone who learns to use both the science and the art to some degree... even Shamans will know the limitations of Sorcery and Conjuring, and even Hermetics put a little bit of their own beliefs and ego into their Talent. |
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 Feb 23 2005, 08:30 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I started something along those lines, once. Never quite finished.
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Feb 23 2005, 08:31 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
So going from a wholly non-mystical view would the mage try to remove ritual around magical events? Would some of the ordeals be invalid in his mind, as unscientific?
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Feb 23 2005, 08:38 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 24-September 03 From: The DeeCee Sprawl Member No.: 5,648 |
I don't think someone from the more scientific side of magic would necessarily connect the processes of magic with ritual. They are, instead, the steps that, when put together in the proper sequence, produce the desired result. More like a science experiment than a voodoo ritual, from their perspective. |
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Feb 23 2005, 08:40 PM
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#9
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Well, depends on whether or not your scientist mage believed in science as a process of learning or a dogma. A scientific method to determine if a ritual was valid would be to take a statistical sampling of all such rituals and answer a hypothesis based on such samplings, or to do repeatable experiments on a particular aspect of a ritual to prove or disprove a hypothesis. Ideally, a scientist would be pleased regardless of the outcome. Realistically, most scientists are only happy if the results give them more grant money to continue. :) Regardless, I doubt that a scientist would dismiss a ritual as unscientific if it was reproducable and provides statistically significant data. Now, in the case of the dogmatic scientist hermetic, he would have sufficient ego to believe that only certain elements of rituals were necessary, and could attempt to reduce the ritual down to basic components... the wholehearted pursuit of such could be seen as part of the ritual itself, in OOC gaming terms. The important part is setting up a belief structure that allows the person to use magic, rather than using science as a process of learning. |
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Feb 23 2005, 08:53 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
So he from that point of view he could do things like write a thesis about the mana manipulations going on during an invoking. And it would still be a ritual, but it'd be taking the mystiscm out? |
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Feb 23 2005, 08:56 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
For a scientific take on ritual and so on...
Consider something like Ceremonial Magicians (Order of the Golden Dawn leaps to mind, Quabballistic (sp) is another..) for ritual: MASSIVE amounts of research into all the corrospondences for the tiniest bit of symbolism, applied to everything. If you want to conjure an earth elemental, you need to have a, b, c, d, e, and f, with corrosponding with g, h, i, j, k, while specific other environmental conditions are met according to l, m, and n, and so on. |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:01 PM
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#12
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Something like that. Unconsciously, the research would be the ritual, because he is finding a way to make magic congruent with his belief structure. Or perhaps it would challenge his belief structure and he would change it accordingly to assimilate the new information. Much of this "belief work" would be subconscious or through a personification mediary for most other mages, but for the scientific mage, it is written down, collated, and presented for open forum discussion. It is the difference between someone who analyzes and studies Jazz and someone who sits on the street corner busking with a saxaphone. |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:01 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
So some shamans say. Other shamans accept their totems as a manifestation of their subconscious, some socio-cultural template they use to come to terms with their Power. |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:03 PM
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#14
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
A sort of imaginary friend, like a Hobbes to a Calvin, perhaps? |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:05 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 24-September 03 From: The DeeCee Sprawl Member No.: 5,648 |
Hmmm...Hobbes Shaman...I like that... :P Now does he summon spirits of man or nature spirits? :D |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:07 PM
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#16
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The only confirmed cases of this are Insect Totems and the Spider Totem, and there's a decent amount of evidence that both are special cases. Damn mantids. ~J |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:13 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043 |
As for the Passions in ED, while they may be actual (occasionally physical) entities, it still seems to me that they're dependent in some way on the minds of people. After all, they're just embodiments of facets of personality.
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Feb 23 2005, 09:30 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
Renewed Hermeticism is [u]the[/u) scientific school of magic. This doesn't mean that they don't use rituals or don't acknowledge the existence of spirits, it's means that they have a scientific approach to magic. hanhsoo already explained this view quite well.
Pythagoreans don't have any sacred numbers per se, they describe their magic with math and hold that math is the best tool for understanding magic. But pythagoreanism could aptly be described as math-mysticism. It's a quest for a better understanding of magic (and the world) through mathematics, which doesn't put it far from mysticism. How come you didn't find the alchemists scientific? Among the different paradigms they are the ones who uses most regular science in their research.
Read the section on Roots of the conflict in SOTA2064, what you want is essentially a pre-Renewed Hermeticism academic mage who wants to explain magic within in the bounds of known science. The shadowtalk about how the Psionic Studies Institute of New Jersey was linked to Awakened history revisionists and Humanis was cut though, so you may play with ot without such ideas for your "scientific mage". |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:40 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 28-October 03 From: End of Earth 2mi. Home 4mi Member No.: 5,764 |
Powerball? Stunball? I want Calvin Ball!!!! |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:43 PM
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#20
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So would his Fashion spell be called Calvin Klein?
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Feb 23 2005, 09:44 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
*ack* I totally missed Concordance Alchemique. That could be a very good fit for the academic mage we want to create. Although do you think the need for such an extensive lab and all would put this out of a starting player's hands? |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:46 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
doesn't the lab just replace the standard hermetic library? i don't have my books here, so i can't check.
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Feb 23 2005, 09:46 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
I think that MITS allready has this one covered when they talk about insane mages who follow tradations that only make sense to themselfs ;) |
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Feb 23 2005, 09:51 PM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Don't dis Toaster!
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Feb 23 2005, 09:52 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 24-September 03 From: The DeeCee Sprawl Member No.: 5,648 |
I can just see some horrible power gamer actually creating a CalvinBall spell in the spirit of the game, ie acting like whatever area effect combat spell they want at any given time. :eek: |
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