In our group someone we have need of a science baised hermetic.
I read through the magical schools listen in in SOTA:2064, and the Pathagorean school and the Renewed Hermetic School seem to be the most scientific. After reading through their descriptions carefully, I had a few questions, so here we go.
Does the Pathagorean view of sacred numbers amount to mysticsm?
If magic is science how do you explain astrall quests or totem spirits?
Specifically if magic is a science then what rational is there for learning abilities ganing magic through a ritual?
I'm not sure how easy it will be to pull of an "Age of reason" style academic mage, but we thought it was interesting. Any advice would be appreciated.
Full Version: The Science of Magic
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle @ Feb 23 2005, 03:11 PM) |
| If magic is science how do you explain astrall quests or totem spirits? |
I can tell you about Totems. Basically, they are an Astral entity. A living being that lends some of it's power to the shaman to use. They are kind of like the Passions in ED, but they are NOT the sae thing. they don't really talk to people.
EDIT:
I can't answer some of the other questions because the book stores around here don't carry SR books, so, my copy of 2064 is still in transit.
| QUOTE (Chibu @ Feb 24 2005, 07:15 AM) |
| I can tell you about Totems. Basically, they are an Astral entity. A living being that lends some of it's power to the shaman to use. They are kind of like the Passions in ED, but they are NOT the sae thing. they don't really talk to people. |
Or from a Hermetic's perspective, they might merely be a crutch subconsciously employed by the weaker-minded Shaman to facilitate his use of magic.
the pythagorean view of numbers isn't necessarily mystical. they just believe that everything in the universe can be broken down into numbers; certain numbers come up more frequently. a pythagorean wouldn't say this is mystical, necessarily, though he'd admit that not every explanation has yet been discovered.
a wholly non-mystical view would probably explain both totems and astral quests as products of the subconscious.
here's something interesting: compare the pythagorean theorem (heh!) to the social/mathematical theories used by the UB.
a wholly non-mystical view would probably explain both totems and astral quests as products of the subconscious.
here's something interesting: compare the pythagorean theorem (heh!) to the social/mathematical theories used by the UB.
The way magic is presented in Shadowrun can be likened to music in a lot of ways. Music is both a science and an art. There are very precise theoretical elements of music that can be reproduced and scientifically examined (harmonics, waveforms, acoustics, etc.). There are many thematic elements of art, religion, culture, and personal beliefs that can fuel a desire to perform music, whether for personal edification or for public performance. Knowing exclusively either the science or the art of music doesn't necessarily make you a good musician. And not everyone has the talent to create music that lasts throughout the ages.
Unlike music, magic (specifically, the magic employed by Sorcery, Conjuring, and adept powers) requires a certain genetic predisposition in order for the metahuman to use it. While some may argue that musical talent is just as rare, anyone can employ and use the trappings of music given enough time and practice. A mage is someone who learns to use both the science and the art to some degree... even Shamans will know the limitations of Sorcery and Conjuring, and even Hermetics put a little bit of their own beliefs and ego into their Talent.
Unlike music, magic (specifically, the magic employed by Sorcery, Conjuring, and adept powers) requires a certain genetic predisposition in order for the metahuman to use it. While some may argue that musical talent is just as rare, anyone can employ and use the trappings of music given enough time and practice. A mage is someone who learns to use both the science and the art to some degree... even Shamans will know the limitations of Sorcery and Conjuring, and even Hermetics put a little bit of their own beliefs and ego into their Talent.
I started something along those lines, once. Never quite finished.
So going from a wholly non-mystical view would the mage try to remove ritual around magical events? Would some of the ordeals be invalid in his mind, as unscientific?
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle) |
| So going from a wholly non-mystical view would the mage try to remove ritual around magical events? Would some of the ordeals be invalid in his mind, as unscientific? |
I don't think someone from the more scientific side of magic would necessarily connect the processes of magic with ritual. They are, instead, the steps that, when put together in the proper sequence, produce the desired result. More like a science experiment than a voodoo ritual, from their perspective.
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle) |
| So going from a wholly non-mystical view would the mage try to remove ritual around magical events? Would some of the ordeals be invalid in his mind, as unscientific? |
Well, depends on whether or not your scientist mage believed in science as a process of learning or a dogma. A scientific method to determine if a ritual was valid would be to take a statistical sampling of all such rituals and answer a hypothesis based on such samplings, or to do repeatable experiments on a particular aspect of a ritual to prove or disprove a hypothesis. Ideally, a scientist would be pleased regardless of the outcome. Realistically, most scientists are only happy if the results give them more grant money to continue.
Regardless, I doubt that a scientist would dismiss a ritual as unscientific if it was reproducable and provides statistically significant data.Now, in the case of the dogmatic scientist hermetic, he would have sufficient ego to believe that only certain elements of rituals were necessary, and could attempt to reduce the ritual down to basic components... the wholehearted pursuit of such could be seen as part of the ritual itself, in OOC gaming terms. The important part is setting up a belief structure that allows the person to use magic, rather than using science as a process of learning.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| Now, in the case of the dogmatic scientist hermetic, he would have sufficient ego to believe that only certain elements of rituals were necessary, and could attempt to reduce the ritual down to basic components... the wholehearted pursuit of such could be seen as part of the ritual itself, in OOC gaming terms. The important part is setting up a belief structure that allows the person to use magic, rather than using science as a process of learning. |
So he from that point of view he could do things like write a thesis about the mana manipulations going on during an invoking. And it would still be a ritual, but it'd be taking the mystiscm out?
For a scientific take on ritual and so on...
Consider something like Ceremonial Magicians (Order of the Golden Dawn leaps to mind, Quabballistic (sp) is another..) for ritual:
MASSIVE amounts of research into all the corrospondences for the tiniest bit of symbolism, applied to everything. If you want to conjure an earth elemental, you need to have a, b, c, d, e, and f, with corrosponding with g, h, i, j, k, while specific other environmental conditions are met according to l, m, and n, and so on.
Consider something like Ceremonial Magicians (Order of the Golden Dawn leaps to mind, Quabballistic (sp) is another..) for ritual:
MASSIVE amounts of research into all the corrospondences for the tiniest bit of symbolism, applied to everything. If you want to conjure an earth elemental, you need to have a, b, c, d, e, and f, with corrosponding with g, h, i, j, k, while specific other environmental conditions are met according to l, m, and n, and so on.
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle @ Feb 23 2005, 03:53 PM) |
| So he from that point of view he could do things like write a thesis about the mana manipulations going on during an invoking. And it would still be a ritual, but it'd be taking the mystiscm out? |
Something like that. Unconsciously, the research would be the ritual, because he is finding a way to make magic congruent with his belief structure. Or perhaps it would challenge his belief structure and he would change it accordingly to assimilate the new information. Much of this "belief work" would be subconscious or through a personification mediary for most other mages, but for the scientific mage, it is written down, collated, and presented for open forum discussion. It is the difference between someone who analyzes and studies Jazz and someone who sits on the street corner busking with a saxaphone.
| QUOTE (Chibu) | ||
I can tell you about Totems. Basically, they are an Astral entity. A living being that lends some of it's power to the shaman to use. They are kind of like the Passions in ED, but they are NOT the sae thing. they don't really talk to people. |
So some shamans say.
Other shamans accept their totems as a manifestation of their subconscious, some socio-cultural template they use to come to terms with their Power.
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| Other shamans accept their totems as a manifestation of their subconscious, some socio-cultural template they use to come to terms with their Power. |
A sort of imaginary friend, like a Hobbes to a Calvin, perhaps?
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
A sort of imaginary friend, like a Hobbes to a Calvin, perhaps? |
Hmmm...Hobbes Shaman...I like that...
Now does he summon spirits of man or nature spirits?
| QUOTE (Chibu) | ||
I can tell you about Totems. Basically, they are an Astral entity. A living being that lends some of it's power to the shaman to use. They are kind of like the Passions in ED, but they are NOT the sae thing. they don't really talk to people. |
The only confirmed cases of this are Insect Totems and the Spider Totem, and there's a decent amount of evidence that both are special cases.
Damn mantids.
~J
As for the Passions in ED, while they may be actual (occasionally physical) entities, it still seems to me that they're dependent in some way on the minds of people. After all, they're just embodiments of facets of personality.
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle) |
| In our group someone we have need of a science baised hermetic. I read through the magical schools listen in in SOTA:2064, and the Pathagorean school and the Renewed Hermetic School seem to be the most scientific. |
Renewed Hermeticism is [u]the[/u) scientific school of magic. This doesn't mean that they don't use rituals or don't acknowledge the existence of spirits, it's means that they have a scientific approach to magic. hanhsoo already explained this view quite well.
| QUOTE |
| Does the Pathagorean view of sacred numbers amount to mysticsm? |
Pythagoreans don't have any sacred numbers per se, they describe their magic with math and hold that math is the best tool for understanding magic. But pythagoreanism could aptly be described as math-mysticism. It's a quest for a better understanding of magic (and the world) through mathematics, which doesn't put it far from mysticism.
How come you didn't find the alchemists scientific? Among the different paradigms they are the ones who uses most regular science in their research.
| QUOTE |
| I'm not sure how easy it will be to pull of an "Age of reason" style academic mage, but we thought it was interesting. Any advice would be appreciated. |
Read the section on Roots of the conflict in SOTA2064, what you want is essentially a pre-Renewed Hermeticism academic mage who wants to explain magic within in the bounds of known science. The shadowtalk about how the Psionic Studies Institute of New Jersey was linked to Awakened history revisionists and Humanis was cut though, so you may play with ot without such ideas for your "scientific mage".
| QUOTE (AIM-54) | ||||
Hmmm...Hobbes Shaman...I like that... Now does he summon spirits of man or nature spirits? |
Powerball? Stunball? I want Calvin Ball!!!!
So would his Fashion spell be called Calvin Klein?
| QUOTE (audun) |
| How come you didn't find the alchemists scientific? Among the different paradigms they are the ones who uses most regular science in their research. |
*ack* I totally missed Concordance Alchemique. That could be a very good fit for the academic mage we want to create. Although do you think the need for such an extensive lab and all would put this out of a starting player's hands?
doesn't the lab just replace the standard hermetic library? i don't have my books here, so i can't check.
| QUOTE (Quix) |
| Powerball? Stunball? I want Calvin Ball!!!! |
I think that MITS allready has this one covered when they talk about insane mages who follow tradations that only make sense to themselfs
Don't dis Toaster!
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle) | ||
I think that MITS allready has this one covered when they talk about insane mages who follow tradations that only make sense to themselfs |
I can just see some horrible power gamer actually creating a CalvinBall spell in the spirit of the game, ie acting like whatever area effect combat spell they want at any given time.
No, a proper Calvinball is sufficiently complicated that even the caster has no idea what the result will be. My suggestion:
Drain: +1(DL-3+1D6)
Effects: at least one of the following
Stunball
Slaughter Insects
Mass Agony
Mass Treat
Mob Mood (roll on moods table, provided by GM)
Mass (bad) Fashion
Ice Sheet
Create Pudding
add or change entries as agreed upon by a vote of players (1 vote each) and GMs (5 votes each)
Drain: +1(DL-3+1D6)
Effects: at least one of the following
Stunball
Slaughter Insects
Mass Agony
Mass Treat
Mob Mood (roll on moods table, provided by GM)
Mass (bad) Fashion
Ice Sheet
Create Pudding
add or change entries as agreed upon by a vote of players (1 vote each) and GMs (5 votes each)
| QUOTE (AIM-54) | ||||
Hmmm...Hobbes Shaman...I like that... Now does he summon spirits of man or nature spirits? |
Bonuses to Detection spells, Combat spells, and Spirits of the Land. Hearth spirits tend to fall asleep a lot, and -1 dice to all magical skills when under direct obseration.
It's like a portable mana storm...
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| add or change entries as agreed upon by a vote of players (1 vote each) and GMs (5 votes each) |
Don't forget a Water Element effect, limited only to females.
| QUOTE (Garland) |
| It's like a portable mana storm... |
I think we now know what really happened down under...
Bunyips...Hobbes "spirits"...it's all coming clear...
| QUOTE (Garland) |
| It's like a portable mana storm... |
Yes, I like mana storms. I just need a GM crazy enough to allow my crazy mage concept (always experiences the wild magic effects listed in MitS) and allow me to conjure mana storms from a second invoking initiation.
The first time I GMed "that other game" of the players had a wild mage character. It was entertaining, though he tended to just use the wild magic effects rather than actual spells.
Probably wouldn't do it again, though. Maybe as a botch effect in SR, though...
Probably wouldn't do it again, though. Maybe as a botch effect in SR, though...
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Don't dis Toaster! |
I imagine after the awakining we'll all find out that the timecube.com guy is actually follwoing his own path that works disturbingly well?
On the contrary, he is following the true path. Evil teachers hide the good that is Time Cube!
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| On the contrary, he is following the true path. Evil teachers hide the good that is Time Cube! ~J |
Hrmm...I think I just found a nemisis for the academic mage we are trying to create
Many of the rituals can still make sense to a totally non mystical hermetic.
For example, the ritual of initiating. The items are arranged in a pattern that encourages mana to flow in a pattern superficially similar to a spell, this flow widens the conduits threw witch you channel your magic. The assistance of a magical group means others will check your work on the positioning of the objects making your task easier, an ordeal will put your mind closer to the alignment of the ritual making the ritual easier. Also as aim-54 said, they would likely look at it as a scientific procedure or experiment (depending how well studied the method they choose is) anybody that refers to the procedure as a ritual will be looked or talked down to in some way.
The procedure could even be borrowed from a mystic ritual that was observed to work and the hermetic doesn’t know witch aspects are necessary so he uses them all.
A scientific view must admit the existence of mana the astral plain and the metta plains. It jut doesn’t think of them as being inexplicable, good or evil. Also it doesn’t talk about being beholden to some entity although powerful spirits do exist and could easily claim to be deific.
Edward
For example, the ritual of initiating. The items are arranged in a pattern that encourages mana to flow in a pattern superficially similar to a spell, this flow widens the conduits threw witch you channel your magic. The assistance of a magical group means others will check your work on the positioning of the objects making your task easier, an ordeal will put your mind closer to the alignment of the ritual making the ritual easier. Also as aim-54 said, they would likely look at it as a scientific procedure or experiment (depending how well studied the method they choose is) anybody that refers to the procedure as a ritual will be looked or talked down to in some way.
The procedure could even be borrowed from a mystic ritual that was observed to work and the hermetic doesn’t know witch aspects are necessary so he uses them all.
A scientific view must admit the existence of mana the astral plain and the metta plains. It jut doesn’t think of them as being inexplicable, good or evil. Also it doesn’t talk about being beholden to some entity although powerful spirits do exist and could easily claim to be deific.
Edward
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| So would his Fashion spell be called Calvin Klein? |
Wow. That is the worst pun I've heard in a very long time. I suppose that being immortal can play havok with your sense of humor.
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle) | ||
*ack* I totally missed Concordance Alchemique. That could be a very good fit for the academic mage we want to create. Although do you think the need for such an extensive lab and all would put this out of a starting player's hands? |
Not necessarily. He's probably shadowrunning to be able to maintain the lab. Or as a starting character he can't afford the lab, but rents lab time from a nearby university whenever he can afford it. He may also join a group to get access to a lab.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| doesn't the lab just replace the standard hermetic library? i don't have my books here, so i can't check. |
No. There's no specific rules about alchemists labs anywhere, but IMO they consist of a hermetic circle, a standard hermetic library, an enchanting shop and an enchanting library. In addition there's also probably a chemistry/physics kit/shop/facility with a chemistry/physics library (use knowsoft rules). He also need some room for the lab (use the alternate lifestyle rules, don't know where they are, but probably MJLBB).
It's not out of range for a starting character, but of course expensive.
| QUOTE (audun) |
| No. There's no specific rules about alchemists labs anywhere, but IMO they consist of a hermetic circle, a standard hermetic library, an enchanting shop and an enchanting library. In addition there's also probably a chemistry/physics kit/shop/facility with a chemistry/physics library (use knowsoft rules). He also need some room for the lab (use the alternate lifestyle rules, don't know where they are, but probably MJLBB). It's not out of range for a starting character, but of course expensive. |
Yeah, I thought he'd need at least an enchanting shop and a chemistry shop, some librarys, and a computer with access to magicnet or a subscription to several magic publications. He also might need wards and such to be able to set up magical clean rooms.
Heh. If for no other reason, pick up Ivy & Chrome and check out D'Venescu's set-up.
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