 The Black Lodge, Who is the Ultimate Master? |
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 Feb 26 2005, 04:58 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087  |
I'm toying with the idea of linking a villain for my upcoming campaign to a magical group like the Black Lodge.
I've got Threats, of course. Aside from that : - Where else do we get info about them? - What links can be established between them and the IOND beside the speculations in Super Tuesday? - Any guesses on whether there is a Ultimate Master and who he might be? Theories? Speculation? Opinions? The title of Penultimate Master, as most have realized I'm sure, implies that there is an Ultimate master. In that case it might just be Oliver Sinclair showing humility, like meaning he is penultimate to the greater good of the lodge. Not very likely, but stranger thing than a humble villain have happened. |
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Feb 26 2005, 05:19 PM
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#2
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Do you have Threats 2 also? Iirc theres stated that their master is oliver sinclar.
But the real powers behind him are surely lofwyr or a Immortal Nazi Elf. ;) |
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Feb 26 2005, 06:15 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
I do have threats 2.
Where is the Black Lodge mentioned? |
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Feb 26 2005, 06:57 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The Black Lodge doesn't appear in Threats 2. What references there are to the dark brotherhood in SR3 are in SoE. More will follow soon...
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Feb 26 2005, 07:43 PM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Have I ever told you Synner, that you have a seriously sadistic side?
Gang, has it ever occured to you to write your own stuff? You can have someone come along. Odds of most runners getting to the top of the lodge system are pretty small anyway but who's to know. There may not even be a single master if there are splinter groups. To borrow dialogue from Sneakers Robert Redford: "You mean organized crime?" Ben Kingsely: "I'll let you in on a little secret (pause) It's not that organized." |
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Feb 26 2005, 07:46 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Sure. I do it all the time. And like any writer, I do research. |
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Feb 26 2005, 07:52 PM
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#7
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Yeah, I thought the whole point of having the onion-layer Illuminati conspiracies is the fact that the PCs will never ever reach the center of it all (i.e. Fox Mulder). Every time they find the "Supreme Ultimate Master", they find out that he/she works for someone else, or "the princess is in another castle". So in a way, the Ultimate Master question is irrelevant, compared to the agenda and goals.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Feb 26 2005, 07:57 PM
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#8
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Guests |
Actually, it's not just mentioned in SoE. It's been mentioned in several SBs since, specifically within the context of some sort of recruting competition with the IOND. I believe it started in POAD: DS, and showed up most often in book Kenson wrote, as if he was either proud of the Lodge or had wanted to make them less scary and more... mundane. |
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Feb 26 2005, 08:16 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,757 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
What Synner meant was that in Third Edition books, the Black Lodge only showed up in SoE, and I think he's right. Threats or PoaD:DS are Second Edition books. |
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Feb 26 2005, 08:50 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
The PCs shouldn't know the truth, The GM should. ;) |
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Feb 26 2005, 09:22 PM
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#11
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Perhaps. But it is certainly easier on pre-run planning and plot arcs if one leaves a few details open or unwritten, especially if such details are things the PCs are never going to find out. In a conspiracy setting, you really don't need to know who the puppet masters are, as long as you know that the puppet masters exist and that they have a certain agenda. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Feb 26 2005, 10:05 PM
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#12
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Guests |
Fine. Not that it makes it any more comforting that it was disregarded for around 7 years along with, outside of the one cell in Ragnarock, Winternight until SOTA64, and it's okay? |
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Feb 26 2005, 10:27 PM
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#13
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
I always figured it was the Denairastas dragon-kin/immortal humans and the Outcast. But that's just my wild assed guess.
And on the gap, why not? They laid the thing out and then left it up to GM's in how they wanted to use it. Well that's one possability at least. |
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Feb 26 2005, 11:49 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
Funny, that was my guess too. |
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Feb 27 2005, 02:16 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
I don't have any problem with that. Had they been corporations or public figures, that would have been a different story. But remember those organizations are extremely secretive, and, as presented in Threats, even possibly just rumors altogether. Now, to me, that just shows how good they are to advance their own agenda for 7 years completely under the radar, and have only been spotted again recently. On another POV, we sometimes hear complaints that the SR writers give something interesting and open ended to the GM and players, only to "ruin" it in the next book with absolute truth that renders any home made material by the GM completely useless or seriously outdated. For once, the writers waited a long time to have those organizations evolve again. And I think it's very nice to both have those orgs re-introduced for the new players, and updated for the long time players, in a similar way that Spinrad was re-introduced with brio by Peter Taylor. |
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Feb 27 2005, 04:56 PM
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#16
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Do you know who is really running Aztechnology? or the inner workers of Mitsuhama? Cannonically I mean? of course not, but that doesn't stop you from using them. How about a split in the lodges. You have in your world that the Grand Master happens to live in Akron, Ohio. (Hey! who'd look for an evil dark lord in freaking ohio?) but two years from now, the offical stuff comes out that she is really in Constantinople. Well one of the really was a splinter group in your world. A war between secret societies? seems made for the SR world in a truly paranoid way- "You need to steal this volume form a New York Occult Book shop and burn the rest of the place down." "why arson?" " so no one will know you took one particular book." or "I need a run to stop that shipment of bread crumps making it to the Stuffer Shack distribution center in Toronto." "Why" "Don't ask." |
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Feb 27 2005, 05:16 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
I don't use Aztechnology that often, as a matter of fact. If I do, I usually know the players involved.
A run doesn't always have to be initiated by the top of the organization, but it very well might. And either way, when I design the adventure, I always know exactly the 'who' and the 'why' of the run as well as the motivations of all the parties involved. The 'How' and the details are usually much sketchier, though. In the case of Aztech we don't know all of the power players but we know some, so if the big A is involved in a run and the orders come from the top, it's probably Ramos or Roxborough for example. Or a new NPC I invented. Which is why I asked for opinions and facts about the lodge. If I use them in my campaign, I will have someone precise in mind when I think abou their top echelon. I improvise a lot during a run which is why I don't improvise much for the characters in the story. If I know exactly who are the players of the game and what are their goal, I can improvise their reactions to the actions of the PCs more easily and consistently. That's just my way of doing things, though. YMMV. |
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Feb 27 2005, 05:51 PM
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#18
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
YMMV?
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Feb 27 2005, 05:55 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Your Mileage May Vary.
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Feb 27 2005, 05:56 PM
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#20
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Your Mileage May Vary. Basically, it means "Your experience may differ from my experience" |
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Feb 27 2005, 06:03 PM
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#21
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Right, but I was under the impression that the Black Lodge was an Illuminati-style conspiratorial group, and agendas and goals tend to be more important than individuals and groups. It may be helpful to pick up a copy of GURPS Illuminati (written by Nigel Findley!) to get a sense of why it isn't important to have tangible Big Cheeses and Boss Enemies in a conspiracy-themed game. One can argue that the Top NPC's goals and agendas are far more important than the identity of the NPC, simply because the PCs will never know that Top NPC personally, in-game or out-of-game. I suppose if your group is a bunch of canon-buffs, it might matter, but in the case of the Black Lodge, very little is written about them and no PC is likely to know all the written material about it. |
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Feb 27 2005, 06:29 PM
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#22
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Although some of them turn out to be just as nasty after the absolute truth is revealed. Bug City comes to mind... while it is fun to pick out the mysteries of the Universal Brotherhood, and Bug City "revealed" to the world the truth about Bug Spirits (ruining the open-endedness of the UB plotline), Insect Spirits are no less frightening or scary after the bomb was dropped (so to speak). They're just an expected threat rather than a threat out of left field. |
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Feb 27 2005, 10:58 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
If you can't find the truth in a book, Make it up. It's why your the GM no? |
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Feb 27 2005, 11:16 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
No kidding. Along with facts, I asked for opinions and speculation, didn't I? And why would I do that? To help me 'make up' the truth. Duh. --- So far the only helpful suggestion was the Outcast dragon thing. Trouble is, I don't want another dragon. Use enough of them as it is. But I want something with a clearer agenda. Who exactly pulls the string, and to what purpose. Maybe there used to be a dragon who got killed in the down cycle and Oliver Sinclair is the real leader but he pretends to still be number 2 in order to keep his inner circle in check. Who would challenge him if they tought a great dragon was still pulling strings. It's one possibility anyway. As for the agenda for the higher ups, I'm still fuzzy on that. |
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Feb 28 2005, 02:13 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
I think the Black Lodge fill a very important role in SR. They're the magical threat that isn't loco spirits, Great Dragons, or Immortal Nazi Elves. If you want Great Dragon and IE conspiracies, there are plent of other groups.
The scary thing about the Black Lodge is they're just normal (well, Awakened) people with a secret agenda. Hell, 99% of the people in the organization probably don't know the agenda. The fact that nobody really knows what their goals are adds to the mystique. The Ultimate Master could be some guy that died in the 1600s that has a shrine somewhere that the Penultimate Master visits from time to time, or it could be some cosmic ideal Neitzchean Superman "one with all mana" being that the Black Lodge inner circle seeks to ascend to. Just leave out the GDs and IEs just this once. . . |
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