Sure. I do it all the time. And like any writer, I do research.

Actually, it's not just mentioned in SoE. It's been mentioned in several SBs since, specifically within the context of some sort of recruting competition with the IOND. I believe it started in POAD: DS, and showed up most often in book Kenson wrote, as if he was either proud of the Lodge or had wanted to make them less scary and more... mundane.

What Synner meant was that in Third Edition books, the Black Lodge only showed up in SoE, and I think he's right. Threats or PoaD:DS are Second Edition books.

The PCs shouldn't know the truth, The GM should.

Perhaps. But it is certainly easier on pre-run planning and plot arcs if one leaves a few details open or unwritten, especially if such details are things the PCs are never going to find out. In a conspiracy setting, you really don't need to know who the puppet masters are, as long as you know that the puppet masters exist and that they have a certain agenda.

Fine.

Not that it makes it any more comforting that it was disregarded for around 7 years along with, outside of the one cell in Ragnarock, Winternight until SOTA64, and it's okay?

Funny, that was my guess too.

I don't have any problem with that. Had they been corporations or public figures, that would have been a different story. But remember those organizations are extremely secretive, and, as presented in Threats, even possibly just rumors altogether. Now, to me, that just shows how good they are to advance their own agenda for 7 years completely under the radar, and have only been spotted again recently.

On another POV, we sometimes hear complaints that the SR writers give something interesting and open ended to the GM and players, only to "ruin" it in the next book with absolute truth that renders any home made material by the GM completely useless or seriously outdated. For once, the writers waited a long time to have those organizations evolve again. And I think it's very nice to both have those orgs re-introduced for the new players, and updated for the long time players, in a similar way that Spinrad was re-introduced with brio by Peter Taylor.

Do you know who is really running Aztechnology? or the inner workers of Mitsuhama? Cannonically I mean? of course not, but that doesn't stop you from using them. How about a split in the lodges. You have in your world that the Grand Master happens to live in Akron, Ohio. (Hey! who'd look for an evil dark lord in freaking ohio?) but two years from now, the offical stuff comes out that she is really in Constantinople. Well one of the really was a splinter group in your world. A war between secret societies? seems made for the SR world in a truly paranoid way- "You need to steal this volume form a New York Occult Book shop and burn the rest of the place down."
"why arson?"
" so no one will know you took one particular book."
or
"I need a run to stop that shipment of bread crumps making it to the Stuffer Shack distribution center in Toronto."
"Why"
"Don't ask."

Your Mileage May Vary. Basically, it means "Your experience may differ from my experience"

Right, but I was under the impression that the Black Lodge was an Illuminati-style conspiratorial group, and agendas and goals tend to be more important than individuals and groups. It may be helpful to pick up a copy of GURPS Illuminati (written by Nigel Findley!) to get a sense of why it isn't important to have tangible Big Cheeses and Boss Enemies in a conspiracy-themed game. One can argue that the Top NPC's goals and agendas are far more important than the identity of the NPC, simply because the PCs will never know that Top NPC personally, in-game or out-of-game. I suppose if your group is a bunch of canon-buffs, it might matter, but in the case of the Black Lodge, very little is written about them and no PC is likely to know all the written material about it.

Although some of them turn out to be just as nasty after the absolute truth is revealed. Bug City comes to mind... while it is fun to pick out the mysteries of the Universal Brotherhood, and Bug City "revealed" to the world the truth about Bug Spirits (ruining the open-endedness of the UB plotline), Insect Spirits are no less frightening or scary after the bomb was dropped (so to speak). They're just an expected threat rather than a threat out of left field.

If you can't find the truth in a book, Make it up. It's why your the GM no?

No kidding.

Along with facts, I asked for opinions and speculation, didn't I? And why would I do that? To help me 'make up' the truth. Duh.

---

So far the only helpful suggestion was the Outcast dragon thing. Trouble is, I don't want another dragon. Use enough of them as it is. But I want something with a clearer agenda. Who exactly pulls the string, and to what purpose.

Maybe there used to be a dragon who got killed in the down cycle and Oliver Sinclair is the real leader but he pretends to still be number 2 in order to keep his inner circle in check. Who would challenge him if they tought a great dragon was still pulling strings. It's one possibility anyway. As for the agenda for the higher ups, I'm still fuzzy on that.

italics, mine.
Just isolating a few items you had in just one post. You might encourage more response if you are less condecending.

This was at least the 2nd person to suggest you do your own thing. Between snits, you say you do, but your phrasing seems to be that if there isn't a diffinitive, cannonical answer you won't use it.

There is most definitely something between the New Templars and the Black Lodge--I mean, the Black Lodge pretty much runs the French Catholic Church. I think they would be bad blood between the groups (the Templar are fanatics, but more often than not honest "true believer" fanatics, who would probably find the Lodge heretical at the very least). You could build an entire campaign around "who's infiltrating and subverting who."

I'm not so sure about the Human Nation; they get quite a bit of Humanis backing and Humanis is not exactly Awakened friendly (of course they tolerate magicians more than Metas, but that wouldn't take much). But I'm sure the Lodge is in a position to manipulate them, if it becomes convienient.

I also see the Lodge as being very interested in pulling strings in IOND; the Illuminates provide a very convinient public front for accomplishing political goals and putting pressure on governments. The two groups have similar goals as far as magician control. The Lodge just wants THEIR magicians in control. I wouldn't make IOND just a Black Lodge front, by any means, but there could easily be a storyline or two involving the two.

Hmm, tought I read somewhere that IOND was more of a splinter group than a front and that there was some rivalry between the groups. Kinda like that interpretation, too. It could lead to a struggle to bring them back into the fold without sacrificing what they built.

For the human nation angle, I was more thinking along the line that some magically active members of the human nation could also be member of the black lodge. If I go with the "Lodge VS the non-human magical powers" angle, it would make sense. Given the nature of the lodge, I'd imagine that members with a dual affiliation would owe first loyalty to the lodge and probably wouldn't share with their nation buddies that they are also members of a secret magical cult. But then, there's no reason to believe the Nation is a bunch of bumbling fool unable to realize that they are being infiltrated, plus they have a more defined ideology than the lodge wich could allow it to turn some double agent...

I had similar toughts for mingling the New Revolution with the Nation. And now that I think about it, the New Revoltution would involve retaking the Tir so the Lodge could be keeping tab on them too while the Revolution might be thinking they could manipulate the lodge (if aware of them) into providing the magical support necessary to take on the Tir.

As for the Templars vs Lodge, yes they should be more opponent than natural allies, you're right. But their founding mythos interlink so you'd think they recruit a bit in the same circle, as far as Europe is concerned anyway. The Templar could believe the Ultimate master is essentially the devil. Could even be true, after a fashion. There could be a powerful spirit at the top of the hierarchy. As a twist, the spirit could have founded the group in a deal similar to the Aleph society and the Faust story about selling your soul. Except the human magicians long ago became too powerful for the spirit to control and enslaved him. Usually it is the other way around except the spirit got too greedy by dealing with too many mortals and the exponential growth of the lodge lead to a posse of powerful mage able to band together to get the real name and enslave the free spirit. Or perhaps they just took advantage of the downcycle. Hmm.

Nope, haven't got that book. Thanks for the heads up. The link to France makes sense given the free mason schtick and all that.

So I should probably give them a strong gravity center in Europe, right? In Europe they could seem ubiquitous, able to reach everywhere while elsewhere they should be more focused, with smaller cells concentrated in important area and benefitting from less outside support. They would have tighter, more self contained agendas. Perhaps these cells would also be prone to fit of independance, chaffing at too much control from the "metropole", hmm? More willing to deal with local organizations than the more uncompromising European cells.