PC Conflict, I could use some suggestions Options

[Chibu]

Alright, here's the thing. What do you do if one of the PCs, who's been playing since the beginning of the campaign (100 good karma earned) goes to the fixer (who gets them jobs) and says "I can't work with the new person that you hired for the last run" (who is a new character that was made because the player's previous character became unplayable)?

Basically the new character doesn't work well with the team. Such as, during the first meet she attended, cast (well, tried to cast. It the spell was defeated in astral combat within seconds of casting) Influence on one of the other PCs (who has about 50 good karma)


However, the player is a friend, and claims to want to play, but keeps making characters that don't really do anything. And, btw, the player knows how to play (as he is the one who taught me how to play).

This is the problem. Any suggestions?

[mfb]

sounds like the 'problem' player is bored with playing runners.

[elbows]

Have you tried talking to the offending player?
I had a similar situation recently and I told the player quite bluntly "the path you're choosing will put you in direct conflict with the other PCs, and they'll probably kill you."
That was all it took for him to shape up -- I don't think he was doing it deliberately.

If that doesn't work, let the other PCs kill him (or refuse to work with him, effectively forcing his character to retire). If his next character isn't better-behaved, I'd probably ask him to leave the game.

On the other hand, one of my past GMs took such a "problem character" and turned her into an enemy -- still under PC control. The player would show up every few sessions and try to kill us all while we were busy with a run. Not that I'd recommend this approach -- but oddly enough that was one of the best games I've played in ;-)

[Smiley]

Let the enmity between the player grow. Hell, nurse it a bit. Then have the player that doesn't work well with others work against them. A little rivalry can be a good thing.

[Edward]

The longest game I played in had a lot of party tension, and that makes sense. Criminals are inherently untrustworthy and know that most people in there profession are such.

It is notable that we had no less than 4 PC deaths at the hands of one or more other party members, none of these caused a problem with the rest of the party. (There where other issues but the deaths of party members as not it).

Now logically if a fixer gets a call saying I cant work with the new guy he will check with the rest of the teem (I am assuming they will agree), if he wants to save the group he will call in the new guy and tell him to act like a professional, criminals may not be trustworthy but you cant afford to betray the limited trust your teem mates give you. If it continues to be a problem (one more chance only and on a unimportant run) get rid of him.

Personally if my character had been the intended target of the influence spell he would have been dead. I can not abide somebody messing with my mind, trying it is almost the quickest way to make my enemies list, doing it when your supposed to be working with me is the only one faster (unless I am playing timothy carter in witch case doing anything inappropriate to his 12 year old daughter is faster).

Edward

[Aes]

Quite. The one time another player tried running an influence spell on one of my PCs, I burned a shitload of karma, jsut to have the satisfaction of saving against the spell and filling his head with lead. :P

[John Campbell]

I'm with Edward here.

As a player, if another PC attempted to cast a mind control spell on me without my knowledge and consent (and I can't think offhand of any reason I would ever consent to one), I would do my best to kill them dead at the first decent opportunity. I'd certainly never work with them, except perhaps to set them up for a bullet through the brainpan. If I witnessed them attempting it on another PC, I might not immediately react violently, but I'd certainly never trust them to watch my back, and would be prepared to kill them instantly if it appeared necessary.

As a GM, I'd have no problem at all with the controlled PC, or any of the others, killing the caster. I'd probably consider it bad role-playing if they didn't at least throw the character's ass out of the group so hard that he bounced. Intra-party harmony only goes so far, and expecting PCs to work with someone who attempts to fragging mind control them is waaaay beyond reasonable. And I'd tell him this when he told me that he was going to try casting against another PC. If he insisted, I'd let him do it, but I'd make sure that he knew that I wasn't going to protect him from the consequences.

My solution would probably be something along the lines of telling the problem player that his character's been told to never come back (or just letting the other PCs kill him), and allowing him to make a new character (or recycle the same stats as a different person, if making a new character would be too time-consuming). Then if he pulled shit like that again, he'd be out of the game.

[Chibu]

Well, that's good. Just making sure i'm not the only one who thinks that.

[BitBasher]

In my game, they'd imitate HEAT and get all Neil Cauley on his Waingro ass. ;)

[Ed Simons]

[torzzzzz]

:wobble:

personally if it is causing that much trouble i would, point out that though you can play a one man game its not as much fun. Having a volatile character adds for a bit of fun in the game but if it is ruining it for the outher characters its not on. Tell em to buck there ideas up or have the character meet with a nasty accident.

I have an arsey character but depending on who i am playing with gages how much i can get away with, there is nothing wrong with roleplaying well but there are limits.

your problem sounds like ether a bad roleplayer or a selfish person.


torz x

[gamemaster]

just keep killing him as players or not working with his characters ,eventually he will come in line or quit.

[Edward]

Its not just PCs, if I am running an NPC and somebody tries to mind control them that NPC will immediately hate you (there being some extraordinary situations that may change that). All mind control magic is illegal without very hard to get permits (imposable in some jurisdictions). This is for the very good reason that NOBODY wants there mind to be messed with by somebody else.

Of cause the response would be purely in character, merely the threat of being mind probed will get some people to babble out al there secrets but they will hate/fear you for it and if they ever find themselves with the power to hurt you they will be that much more likely to use it..

To be honest I like a bit of tension between the party, preferably not so much that characters die repeatedly but it ads something to the reality of the SR world that your not always working with people you trust totally.

Edward

[torzzzzz]

:twirl:

It sounds like you are having problems with the person rather than the game, have you asked if he/she has a problem? is it possible that they resent not being able to play the old character? i would have words because you don't want a real situation on your hands, it could lead to other members of the group not wanting to play anymore and then it had been ruined for everyone.

torz x

[Endgame50]

Honestly, I've dealt with player conflict before. It's generally rather annoying, but it is the person's character, so they can play them as an arse-hat if they really want.

However, other players can choose to censure said arsehat, especially in a game like Shadowrun, where you have a lot of control over who you decide to work with. Basically, I'd have the offending mind controlling PC get scrapped--can't work with *this* group any more, so is effectively "dead" for playing purposes.

Then I'd take the player aside and talk about playing nice. Else, just keep "killing" off the characters as the group decides they're getting too obnoxious. I'd draw the line though, if said player began to try to do the human bomb thing in an effort to destroy the group.

[algcs]

[Mortax]

I'm the GM for that last run, so I'll answere a few of the questions that I can.

The reason the person's former character couldn't play is, ironically, a conflict with another character. His former character was a mage who was trying to stop astral pollution. One of our characters is a walking background count, so it would have caused major issues. (armor spell lock, increase int quickend, all stats quickend, and a lvl 10 specific spell focus. doesn't seem to understand the level of screwidg I can bring down on him. And were playing 2nd edition. And yes, I have a plan. bwawawawaww)

Anywho, I didn't do anything yet because I simply assumed they'd kill him or that the player would play a new character next time.

I guess I do need to have something major happen the next time if the players don't do it. Problem is, I'm gonna have to do that with several people anyway and am not looking forward to it. Oh well, the curse of GMing, neh?

[Crimson Jack]

[Talia Invierno]

Between-character tension works only if the group is already cohesive, or if the tension actually improves group cohesion. The danger, especially for already shaky groups, is that in-game tensions become out-of-game tensions. From there, it's a short step to the group falling apart.

There's obviously a problem with how the new character is fitting in -- heck, apparently with the way all the characters being created by this new player are fitting in. I too would want to know how the previous character became unplayable. I'd also want to know whether these sentiments have been expressed only by one (player) character, or by others as well, because that will make a difference to how you will end up dealing with it.

Since you mention that the new player does, in your experience, know how to play (well? knows the rules? roleplaying? extensive previous experience in a group? any one of these doesn't necessarily imply the others), it might even be something as basic as game "tone": what is the new player looking for, in this particular game? Is it the same as for the group?

All that being said, most players will react badly to any attempt to mind control ... although Influence is one of the mildest forms of this. "Realistically", most characters shouldn't even realise that an attempt had been made to influence them ... at least, not magically. Yet within "realism", in some contexts, why wouldn't a character reasonably use this particular spell (as opposed to, say, Control Thoughts) to gloss over a point? Once a character has such a spell, the temptation to use it to "shortcut" every difficulty has to be significant. (Must ... resist ... Willow ... reference ...)

Different groups draw different limits as to what is considered acceptable -- and some don't flinch at drawn guns as part of standard in-group "discussion". What makes mind control spells different is the perceived loss of free will -- yet staring down the barrel of a loaded gun tends to inhibit personal freedom of choice as well.

I'll add, finally, that the one time I brought a character into an established group with a personality that demanded this "shortcut" be used whenever possible/"necessary" -- which meant she'd have to use it during the initial encounter, or be a different personality altogether -- I cleared it with the group first, and we in effect metagamed the initial encounter so as to bring her into the group as a long-term asset without compromising anyone's personality. Incidentally, that initial encounter ended with her having a katana across her throat, during which time she learned the in-game rules of the group, understood the in-game rules of the group, and developed great incentive to obey the rules of the group.

[U_Fester]

[torzzzzz]

[tisoz]

[Mortax]

The situation was as follows:

They walk into a brunch with a fixer. He looks at one of the non-magically active charicter, and tried to use a "implant thought" spell. Later he stated this spell was to give the comand, protect me. I've no doubt it was in the character of the PC, however, it is something that will generate a lot of tension. If it happens, I may have to do something, but I'd rather it played out in char. I hate doing hand of god unless poeple do something that is outright dumb. Like say, carrying 2 hmg down main street while calling Lofwyr a pansy. :-)

[Lon'Elara]

Hi!
So, I created a SN just so that I could respond to this thread.
I'm said player.
**Accepts the flames, doesn't try to dodge, stages damage down to S, casts treat, then moves on**
Yeah....
So, a few notes:
First off, Chibu was right, and the GM was wrong, it was Influence that I was casting, not some self written "implant thought" spell. (although yes, I did have her using one self written spell, I do try to keep relatively canon)

I'm going to try to respond to things on a point by point basis, so bear with me.
And (while most of you don't know me, the two who do should expect this) yeah, I'll prolly play a new charrie next time we play, although I had absolutely ZERO intent of that before reading this post... I kinda liked Raven. (no, that's not her name, it's just what she goes by, yes it seems cliche' but there's reason for it, .... other than the blatantly obvious of she's a raven shaman).

sounds like the 'problem' player is bored with playing runners.
Hmm.... yeah, that's definately one interperetation. Yes, I have played almost everything ever a million times... (or so it seems some days), and yeah, the stereotypical runner I am bored with. I like interesting characters these days, and realistic characters. Characters with families, with motivations, with goals (other than get more money to buy better programs), with backstories. I think that these are realistic (if not good) runners, and I think they're fun to play.

but keeps making characters that don't really do anything.
This could be a granted statement.
No, my raven shaman doesn't do combat. .... she IS a raven shaman.
No, my astral cleaner/researcher didn't do combat. She was a heady character, she had physical science at 6, theory/astral at 5/7, and astral forensics at 6. No, I didn't realize that we were going to germany to fight terrorists. But even so, I had martial arts. Was she the physad of Killing hands doom? NO. was she the cyberpsycho sammy? No. but if we'd been in a mystery situation, she'd've kicked royal ass. No offence intended Chibu, but I think that part of why you found her so useless was the mexican accent. your character wrote her off imediately and so you apparently followed suit. No, I didn't make her have a mexican accent to add dynamic tension to your azzy-hating uber-adept, I did it because she spent at least 5 years studying the fovae. She'd have to know spanish for that, and would've spent fair time in Aztlan.
And yes, I did infact choose to nix her out of defference to Mike (the guy with the 8 quickenings 2 spell locks, and force 10 spell focus). I didn't want to cause undue character strife. I didn't feel like bringing a fight into the group, and the character herself didn't exactly fit into the group dynamic.

My character before that (whom I played for about 6-8 runs before having to miss a run or two, and being uninformed/forgetting about a few later runs) I found fun, interesting, AND useful to the extream.
Something about a face/decker/stealther who can handle combat who I think of as a pretty useful character. Now yes, admittedly I wasted a LOT of points. The 700,000 Y of starting equipment that was neigh useless but help round out her character, yes. not the most useful. Could I have built a 'deck with that money? Obviously! but to me, having that as a character goal seemed a LOT cooler.
To those of you not part of this campaign, that character became unplayable as she began actually attaining some of her character goals (she was becoming famous). She had raked in the cash needed to go independent, and the amount of money that I was earning made the DM (mortax) somewhat uncomfortable (whether he'd admit it or not :P) So, I felt that it was time for her to move on, so, I let her (this coupled with my leaving her char sheet at home one night when we played really clenched the deal).

I'm getting kinda tired, so I guess that I won't respond to everything point by point.
But anyway.
No, they have not tried talking to the problem PC (me) and likewise, I didn't realize that it was a problem. I did realize at the time that there was an undue (IMO) amount of tension in the air, but, there always tends to be when the hypermasculine air gets threatened with something unsure. So, I wrote it off as my own paranoia (**takes a note from SRers around the world and starts believing his own paranoia**).

[Lon'Elara]

As for the reason for the casting of the spell.
It was an entirely IC reason.
All of the casters were masked.
The character was intimidated and scared.
She felt like the newb in a group of vets.
She needed a security blanket to feel better.
She did what she does in times of insecurity, and tries to get someone else to be a stand in wall. (As a raven shaman, and as the type of character whom she was, she was very non-combative, and prefered protection, stalling, subdual kinds of solutions to problems)
Brian (the target)'s character description best fit the person whom she'd feel most comfortable around.
So!
her goal was to instill in him the feeling of "this gyrl is alright, I should watch her back"
Now, I will grant full well that I as a player knew what would happen. Chibu and the other caster would get angry and either defeat the spell, or kill me.
Yes, I realize this.
But I thought that it was appropriate in character.
Should I have not made the character in the first place? Apparently.... but I thought it'd be interesting.
Also!
I honestly don't know what kind of character to make.
Everyone's characters have a million karma, and have a (relatively) good group dynamic.... (well, honestly you have 2 good group dynamics, reflected in the two different team karma pools, but that shall be left aside) (((and to those of you wondering, yes there is dynamic tension extant in the group, as on the most recent run the one group nearly left the other group inside of a very dangerous compound with no escape route))) Also, their power level and strength of bond aside, it is a very difficult group to find a niche in.
We have combat COVERED. We have Magic even more covered yet. As for transportation... well yes, you have no rigger, but honestly the GM has provided transit to anywhere outside of SeaTac that would've taken any difficulty or prowess anyway. You have a face (in the worst way) that I feel no desire to compete with as firstly, two faces do not a healthy group make, and secondly, that player is one who needs nourished and supported, as dynamic tension might be taken too personally. .....
So, no. I really have no clue what to play.
(I'll comment that at least I AM making runners, if not ones that you see use for.)

No, I"m not "that guy" and I'm not going to design a character out of any idea of vengance who's pissed at the world and wants to kill the running team he gets hired with for no real IC reason. It's not my style. Sorry.

As to the reactions of the other members of the group. The physad, Puma shaman, and the target of the spell where all quite upset by my character's actions (the puma shaman the most, threatening her life in response, and the target the least, simply being unsure of whether he could trust her alone in a room). The face and walking astral beacon both seemed uncaring at best about the situation.
So yes, at least one other player expressed similar concerns Talia.

Also Talia, yeah, I know the game. I know the rules, and I know the world. I've Played SR for many years, and DMed it quite a bit. I've also played and DMed a TON of other games, but, you are onto something none the less. It HAS been a long time since I've played SR consistantly instead of DMing it, and that could well be part of the problem involved here. It has been a while since I have not been in "the power seat" and perhaps subconciously it is affecting my playing (I'll try to watch out for that.... as much as one can)... but I don't think that that is the answer to the 'problem'.

Thanx for the backing tisoz. Yes. I am trying to help. It seems at times that our GM (Mortax) is unhappy with the power level and mindset of our campaign. I OOC am trying distinctly to help. However, when it comes to IC issues, there is little that I can do besides not add to the problems. These 'problems' have been at least partially on my mind while making characters, I've been trying to avoid illegal gear and massive minmaxing or metagaming. Also, I've tried to play characters who help illustrate the fact that not all characters need be monsters at their particular field. However, in a group of characters so established, and so experienced, this does (in fact) turn out to be (as chibu claimed) very close to (or at least in appearance) worthless.

........................
So, yeah.
Anyway, to those of you that I know IRL, please, talk to me about this, .... or don't if you really don't want to. If you just want me to frag off and stop playing, then that works too, and I can respect that wish.

To those of you that I don't know IRL, please share your comments/thoughts, and add any questions you feel like asking. I"ll try to check up on here and respond if I get a chance (which I should :D )