PC Conflict, I could use some suggestions Options

[Lon'Elara]

OH, and one more thing!!!
.... yeah, cause we don't have a character in our group who totes heavy weoponry around in public places (say, the back of her car), or insults empowered beings that they shouldn't ...

[Edward]

I like the way you create characters.

First influence when you have forgotten the name and only have a vague idea of what it did can easily become “implant thought spell”, when I read that I immediately assumed the spell was influence or something very similar.

Why did you use it on a PC. In character what reaction did you expect, OC what reaction did you expect.

I create my characters in a similar way to how you do.

I have an ex cop that got done for planting evidence (he actually did plant evidence but they where guilty of the crime). He is a bit like a samy but the mentality doesn’t mach and he has more investigative skills.

There is an ex aztechnolagy security rigger that extracted himself because they where going to kill his daughter.

And a rich kid shaman with a taste for adventure and a warped sense of rite and wrong. (pacifist that deals drugs).

What they all have in common is that they don’t back stab there friends without a very compelling reason. Every SR PC should have that ether as a moral code or a sense of self preservation (if you survive stabbing them in the back what will it do to your reputation).

Using mind altering spells on a ally counts as backstabbing in most circumstances.
Why did you do it?

Edward

[Edward]

Sorry, I was typing while you posted your second post.

In response to your reasoning. First why you my not have done that in character.

If you where aware of the other magicals in the party you would know in character you would probably get caught. Also you would likely know that the reaction would be somewhere between annoyance and deadly action.

On an OC level I try to avoid taking action that will get me in trouble. If faced with 2 IC acceptable choices I choose the one that will make the group stronger. Yes it is metagaming a bit but I find it makes the game smoother and more fun for all participants.

The blood of PCs that is on my hands is usually cases where the player chose a character they knew would not work well in the group or did something stupid that while in character there where other in character options.

What I would have done is to stand near the person you wanted to protect you, probably slightly to the side and behind. You have his protection to an extent purely by virtue of location and you don’t run the risk of turning the one you want to protect you into an enemy.

Edward

[Lon'Elara]

fair.
Perhaps not entirely how I see the char. but still fair.

And yeah man, I love your char. ideas. they make me happy (at least I"m not the only one out there doing dreck like this)

As for why, well, it was explained in the second post, which I guess you read.
But pretty much, because it felt like the right IC (if not prudent) action to take.

[torzzzzz]

:rotfl:

Fair play after peeling my eyes form the monitor i think you have explained yourself!

torz x

[Mortax]

Prudence is not always the response of a PC in game. However, I think in the future it would be better if everyone, myself included here, tried to make things both more realistic and tried to keep things going on a team note. After all, if the group doesn't get along, the fixer/ johnson isn't going to call. And to the statement about how the other char. play IC, several don't understand the world of shadowrun real well out of char. unfortunatly, this means when the "real world" of shadowrun catches up to them, they are probably going to hate me. Which, in all honesty is the main reason it hasn't happend yet. Also, the PC with heavy weapons in the trunk didn't ever say they were doing that until the last run when they saw the Johnson, then had to board a plane. (shakes head) This will likely come back to haunt him in the next run.

As to the undue player tension, in all honesty I'm not surprised. Nor, in all honesty was it entirely in appropriet. Every member of the crew had worked together before. Raven walks in, and tries infuence (no, I was not saying it was a self written spell, I just didn't have my notes and therefor the name in front of me.) on one of the PCs. Mind control spells are as illegle as combat spells, if not more. Puma's are a bit over protective. So I think the reaction, if anything, was not as sever as it could have been. Also, I never asked but, how did your PC know who was magic? They were all masked, and a higher grades of initiate. Yes, the masking can be pierced, but that requires a roll, and you never said you were trying.

Anyway, as far as it goes, I'm not going to do anything unless the PC do something so blatent I have no choice. If you do want to play Raven again, I have no problem with it. If she keeps trying influence though, the group will prolly refuse to work with her. Which put's me in a bit of a spot. :-) What to do with a PC that everyone refuses to work with. It's happend in game before, those who know me irl know to what I am refereing, and it's always a pain.

And just as a note, the main reason I keep providing NPC transport is because, thus far, it has been scripted. Or, ya know, we don't have a rigger so I don't have much choice. Same with deckers. Also, Lon'Elara, the drone rigger you played before was very useful. The wyverns would have been a lot harder without him/her. (don't remember gender.) And yes, I liked the first char you played too. There have been a few times she would have been quite useful. And our face is less of a face and more of a gunner, so a true face would be useful.

[Kali]

um, so because other people are doing dumb things it makes it okay for everyone? casting a spell on a team mate is a bad plan.

hey, mortax, sounds like you've got issues with PCs. don't be afraid to ream them if they do stupid shit. if they're out of control, it's your fault and you gotta bring em in line. bring forth the lonestar security services!

Lon'Elara, what were the abilities/goals of your otheother why'd they quit?
If the team doesn't have a rigger or decker, why not one of those? not like those archetypes?

[Chibu]

[Kali]

that explains your sig

[Mortax]

[Talia Invierno]

Appreciate, greatly, seeing the other pov. It's rare, here, that we get a chance to see each perspective involved. Much more usually, it's "here's the problem that I'm having with my group/my player/my GM, how would you fix it?" (Or, far more commonly, "How can I tell them they're wrong?")

With the addition of your pov, Lon'Elara (and welcome to Dumpshock btw! hope any further experiences here will be better ones), I'm seeing one other thing now: different people in the group have a radically different primary focus of the game, to the point where quirks of a character brought in by one player (any player? or just one?) are immediately taken personally by other players ... through their characters. At the very least, I'm seeing a "what is your character good for?" being seen very differently by different players, based on what each person thinks is the most important thing about their game ... in other words, what's more important than creating the character you want to make.

But every group does this! Every group decides that there's some things more important to be or not be in a character, than the player's privilege to create whatever character he or she wants. Every established group quickly decides (usually without really realising it) what works and doesn't work within that group. There's different ways of winnowing out the characters that "don't belong", for one reason or another. Frequently, it's something the GM catches in the mutual GM-player character creation vetting. The most extreme is to let a character unvetted for group compatibility into the group, and having the group kill them.

In your group, for example, at least a couple of people in the group seem to be strongly prioritising "valuable" skills. At least one or two others seem to be equally prioritising characterisation. Some have strongly indicated a taboo that is not to be crossed in-group (mind control). And in your situation, the different priorities have created a conflict that immediately threatens the new PC's life expectancy.

Anyway, all that is background, not your immediate problem. And yet ...

You see, what I'm thinking -- and bear in mind I'm stabbing in the dark, here, and take with the appropriate tablespoon of salt -- that it's not just the Influence spell, here, that's the problem. Rather, it's that for whatever reason, the characters being created here aren't compatible with what the influential members of the group deem important. And if this holds any accuracy at all, the only way out of this is to figure out what the major members of a group are really looking for in new characters and playing styles -- and more importantly, what they won't stand for -- and build and play the next character accordingly.

Because the alternative, sometimes, is to realise that the two styles of playing just don't fit ...?

[Mortax]

... ya know, that's probably the most helpfull thing said thus far. For all involved. Thank you.

[Lon'Elara]

**First thing: I'm not angry about this, and not taking it (overly) personally**
[[Just thought that I'd throw that out there after reading some of the responses]]

Now! On to the point by point analysis :D

However, I think in the future it would be better if everyone, myself included here, tried to make things both more realistic and tried to keep things going on a team note.
~I"m sorry. I was going for realism. That's why I haven't been making characters with assault weoponry and arm mounted shoulder lasers who enjoy long walks on the beach. That's also why I chose to take an imprudent action instead of on that would benefit group cohesion.

Did I know that they were casters.
NOPE!
I did not.
I made comment that they were masked, kinda to point out that my character wouldn't even know that they'd take it personal and break the spell, if not her face. (although, one could argue that anyone with astral perception knows that chibu's charrie has somethin up with him.... but that's besides the point :P)
to requote myself "Brian (the target)'s character description best fit the person whom she'd feel most comfortable around." really it wasn't an issue of who's a caster, it was an issue of character description. Angry stoner with spirit en toe ( I don't know if the cat had masking too, so, I'm sorry if that's a metaissue), south american guy with messed up aura and a general feeling of "I'm a badass" the million foot tall, 2 million pound troll who WITH masking still kinda looks like he's got magic going on.... BGcount n all. the Preppy slitch face, and the reserved but strong dark-souled guy. I'm sorry that you didn't hear me, but I said I"m percieving and casting at brian. I voluntarily lowered the spell power so that it was less detectable in the real world (so I didn't jump up on a chair and scream and holler, or whatever shamans do these days :P). and... yeah.

I will grant that it was not entirely apparent that our face had heavy weoponry in her trunk at all times until the last run. I mainly ment that comment as a joke, but still. On the note of your (mortax) comment about some of the ppl don't really get SR so let it slide: well, firstly, we talk about it all the time. They should pic up on it.... secondly, we play alot.... they should pick up on it. if they're not, it prolly means that they don't care, they don't pay attention, or they're not getting sent the propper information in order to actually get it. Now, I don't know which, or what combination of these it may be, but, perhaps some OOC DM to Player convo could be helpful here? Just a thought.
If the character is viewed as so unhealthy to the group that they will not be called again, then that is fair. But perhaps the appropriate action would be for the GM to tell the offending player this at the end of a night's run so that they may make another, perhaps more fitting character.
Perhaps the J is looking for someone with particular tallents, perhaps the fixer sees a weakness in the group that he thinks needs filled. If we're "in the interest of realism" then perhaps realistically the J/Fixer should call someone with those skills needed. (btw: I really have no clue what skills are needed. .... I honestly think that 2/3 of the runs that we've been on could have been completed with chibu alone. Likewise, the player of ye astral beacon called me last night and was complaining about "why do Js hire me and -the face/gunner- it seems like we're nigh useless?"... )Just saying that maybe some guidance of what would be realistically hired could work.

To the person who asked "why don't you play a decker" well, this is the honest reason. My first character (whom I love) was working on becoming a decker, and quite frankly, she wasn't bad at it. But, every time that we had a run that "required" a decker (and yes, I fully realize that a decker CAN be very useful in ANY run, but still) the J hired an NPC decker to go along with us. Of course the NPC was far better at decking than I was, having a much nicer deck, and having all of his skills concentrated in the area of decking, not spread around on multiple things like I did. So, having the experience of being a quasi decker and not ever getting to deck, I gotta admit that I"m skeptical about wanting to play one in this campaign, with this Fixer.

I was just pointing out that it was influence instead of a self written spell so that the readers of the forum would know what was being discussed. I wasn't trying to imply that you(Mortax) were dumb, or misunderstood the situation, I was simply trying to avert any "what's that spell do" kinda comments.

I DID forget about the rigger in my posts 12 hours ago. Sorry. Short rundown: drone rigger, lots of blimps, lots of recon, lots of infogathering/spystuff. Up until that point in the campaign, the vast majority had been extraction/stealth based. I figured that this would be an appropriate character that a J would call. The run we got hired for ended up being pure combat, and in the end, an adult dragon came after us. In an attempt to dissuade him from coming back at us, I rammed my heaviest (and unfortunately most expensive) drone into his carcass at top speed. did nice damage! really nice damage. I was happy. The dragon retreated. The next run I went back to playing my original character, as well, quite frankly, I liked her alot better. I tried something new while my character was off doing things for her own character goals (the times just didn't line up for her) and, well, I didn't like him much. Really good character mechanically. I never got into his personality much.

And our face is less of a face and more of a gunner, so a true face would be useful.
Yeah..... hmm...... see... our face is one of the characters that mortax described in the 'not really getting it' category. He's doing a fine job (as it were) as a face, and he'll never learn if I step in and take over the job from him. I'd like to see him grow as a Player, so I don't wanna shove him into the 'utility gunner' slot while I take the face roll.
ALSO: it's REALLY hard to come in as a face in an already established group. ESPECIALLY an already established group that has a strong set working order of things. I could try it. sure. but this screws our face over, and it might turn out as bad or worse than raven.

Kali: I think that I mentioned the abilities of my other chars above, but I'll give a quick rundown of them again.
A): Face/decker/combatable/stealthy chica. She was a BTL producer who ran so that she could get real footage of things worth selling. she had a facility to edit it up and take out the 'vital' details that Js would get pissed off for you leaking, but basically she sold VERY realistic action flicks. she had a penchant for blowing up buildings after striding out of them and turning to watch the explosion (yes, another IMPRUDENT action.... but the star never seemed to care. ... :S ) She also sold alot of live concerts (we've got a friend, he owns a bar.... he's a greater dragon....) Anyway, I was using the rules in shadowbeat for popularity and such based on each run (and the producing and selling of it) being one "performance" and well, quite frankly, I was good at what I did. I went up to star pretty fast, and then I held off there for a while, and on the run after I went Novastar, I A)was spending a lot of my hours doing things other than running and it would've been a pain for the other characters (I'm sorry, I force realism and don't like to just be "oh, my people will wait while I go on this run") and B) the amount of money that I was raking in outside of the run was making the DM uncomfortable (IMO), so I moved on. As for other skills, she had mad stealth, tons of persuasion, ubercharisma, acting, make-up/disguise, and a monowhip (also, she was far more effective in combat situations where initiative didn't get rolled, [toxin exhaler, oral spur])
B) rigger: the character was flat, but useful, he had dreams of diong somthing that I don't care about.... like owning more drones or something.... I forget, I didn't care, I moved back to char #1
C)Astral cleansing chica. Yes chibu her OOC goals were to learn thread magic, this was not an IC goal. Her IC goals were to figure out what the heck was up with the fovae, to learn more about how background count is generated/formed, and how it can be 'cleaned up', and eventually write a form of magic that can be cast without distorting the astral as much. (I think all fair and believable goals given that cleansing metamagic and the astral static spell both exist). Yes, my only spell was "cleanse astral" which I modeled off of Astral Static. It needed to be maintained for 10 minutes, and the TN was 6. every 2 successes decreased the BGC of the area by 1, and the drain was somewhere in the area of +4D. ... I don't remember the exact drain, but it was as per static, upped to D if it wasn't already and then added "permanancy" as per the grimoire.
Her skills were all scientific/observation based, as she was basically a scientist turned runner. Oh yeah.... and she had a really big issue with people using magic willy nilly and with the extream overuse of permanant-magic effects (spell locks/quickenings/foci).
D) Raven. As has been the topic of much discussion. Raven was/is an androgynous Raven shaman goth gurl (prolly only 17 years old, but she looks much smaller than she should for her age). Her skills are mostly magical, and they involve stealth, and delaying/preventing combat. Things like barrier spells, darkness, the much disputed influence spell, and Raven Form. She is socially maladjusted, shy, and easily intimidated, but she refuses to let that come through on the outside, instead she just puts on a cold and unfeeling mask while she acts like nothing's wrong. Her goals include Becoming a respected musician (although not a famous one.... I don't feel like giving up another character that I like to show biz), getting a few pets (especially hell hounds... she's always wanted one), and perhaps even finding a group of people with whom she can feel comfortable. Also, she has some personal issues with a particular megacorp, but quite frankly, I (I know I"m a bad player, but whatever) haven't figured out which corp yet. (classic cyberpunk backstory: happy family meets unhappy corporate demise, kid grows cold wierd, and pissy, becomes a punk.)
So yeah, there's the short rundown of each of them.

I'm aware the nightshade has backstory, and I"m sorry if I implied that he didn't. I know his BS because my first charrie picked up on quite a bit of it around meeting tables. I'm not sure about anyone else's charries, btu honestly I haven't seen them come out at all, but I also haven't gamed every time with y'all. I was simply saying that I like intricate backstory, not necisarily saying that I was the only person who had one.

Talia, I"ve only been on these boards for, oh 12 or 13 hours now, but I'm starting to respect you greatly already.
I have little to add to your post except that in many ways you are completely right. Any IRL ppl can attest to the fact that It took me forever to decide on a char to play simply because I didn't know what would fit into the group dynamic. I couldn't figure out what the Game Session's goals and ideologies were, and I didn't know what to do to fit with them.... so, I went with something that I thought would be nonobtrusive, yet useful.... however, as the character developed in my head and as gaming began, nonobtrusive turned into fear(in the character, not in me) which became casting a spell, which became combat.

So, yeah. that's kinda what I've got to say...
Anybody got any thoughts? expansions? questions? suggestions fo what to play next??
Anyway
thanx all
Byes!

[Lon'Elara]

One other thing!!!

(Said to anouther PC as he ran naked away from a fight.) "Nothing personal, just business." BANG! -Chun

Yeah, we've had player conflict before.
(Chun = mortax, the other PC = guy who used to play with us who moved away. DM at the time = me. Reason for the BANG, another character playing got pissed off at the soon to be dead one and asked Chun to kill him. Reason for the nudity.... yeah, that's a bit of a longer story)

:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

[tisoz]

I'm wondering how Mr. Quickened is managing to mask all those quickened spells. Is he trying to say they are not mentioned in the masking rules so they don't need masked or what? How is anyone astrally perceiving not seeing those spells? Either he got them at Force 1 (which I'm kind of betting he did so it cost less karma to quicken and just kept recasting the spell until he hit that 2*Attribute TN and quickened it) or 6 Attribute spells plus the other stuff is going to force him to make some deliberate masking tests at some near impossible TNs.

Since Anchoring is still worthwhile in 2nd ed., I would anchor about a Force 6 Mana Barrier spell triggered by a detect magic spell with a short range. He won't have much chance to see it as the detection spell can be masked and it can be low force. Pop those quickenings and probably ruin a bunch of spell locks. Be really evil and use a bunch of quickened mana barriers to herd him toward the apparently clear trapped path.

[ Spoiler ]

Or just start putting mana barriers across elevator shafts.

See Talia, I told you everyone loves you. :love:

[torzzzzz]

mmmmmm this topic name should be changed to ........ personal slaging match...... or even its not my fault!

come on stop justifying yourself and GET on with life!

Nothing personal but i thoght i moaned!

torz x :scatter:

[Mortax]

Tisoz:
No, he can't mask all of it. Again, the player doesn't see the problem with it. Thanks for the sudjestion though, I'd been thinking about something along those lines.

As far as the rest, I've said I'll I'm going to. Yes, there have been PC conflicts and will likely continue. I could list off a lot of others that have happend. That point it irrelevent. If people do things that are in character and tell me why, I'm not going to stop them. Whatever those actions may be.

[torzzzzz]

I think it is a natural thing when people get together and they all want to get there ideas out, people will say and do things they might not normally ..... especially when under the pressure of a game or situation. :|

I think this sort of topic will always cause conflict as everyone has a point they want to make, and others do not like or agree with what they are saying! :S

I think your player made a fair explanation of themselves (but who am i to say it's just my opinion?) and has tried to point out what they were trying to do, I'm sure if we all think back about past runs we have been part of we could all come up with an example of falling out with each other! I know for a fact that I can, Its all part of playing a higly stressed game! :D


Note: I have my adult head on today.......... I think i will need to go and lie down now as i have just over exerted my brain! :dead:

tehehehehe

Torz x 8)

[Mortax]

[Chibu]

[hahnsoo]

Heh. Starting a thread is like starting "the Wave"... you can easily start it, but you can't easily stop it.

[Kali]

[hahnsoo]

[Kali]

sorry, just get annoyed hwen people who could talk irl, dont
also when people get over agressive, and dont talk rationaly guess i should yell at me too :-)

i have been lurking
is what i do best :-)

[Mortax]