[ShadowsOfEurope] European Meta-variants, How frequent? Options

[Luca]

From SR Companion I remember a lot of purely european metatypes (ogres, night-ones, minotaurs, cyclops, giants, firlbogs, dryads, gnomes, satyrs, etc..): How much are these diffused if compared with the "normal" elves, orcs, trolls & dwarves?
I was supposing that in lands like Greece (not described by SoE) or Italy, due to the particular Classical roots minotaurs, satyrs & cyclops should be more present than elves, trolls and orcs (which are, roughly speaking, based on a mixture of Tolkienian- Medieval Northern mythology).

[mattness pl]

[Luca]

I'm interested in all the Eastern European but they just cut it....it's just a pity that they consider "European" only the boring centro-western part....anyway, I can understand the "space-argument" (Europe, thanks to God, is much a funnier and more interesting place than America...I can understand the depthd of Ute or Sioux culture....but one must be realistic, Europe NEED more space to be described)....and I come back to my point.
Races in SR are too "German-tolkien" oriented...I'm an Italian and I can say, for sure, that if I ask to my grandfather what a troll is like he probably replies that it is something to eat....I cannot imagine my sons in 2064 transformed in trolls and elves: I have no bloody Saxon\German genes in my DNA!!!!!

[Ancient History]

The distribution isn't pure...part of it has to do with the area and part of it has to do with genetics. So a troll of Greek descent born in Japan might express as a minotaur or cyclops, but perhaps not as easily as one born in Greece.

Generally speaking metavariants, even with SURGE, are a very, very small fraction of the metahuman population.

If the standard is 9.8% elves, 9.8% dwarves, 9.8orks, 9.8% trolls, 1% changeling and 59.8% human...well, let me look at some numbers, I don't want to pull something completely out of my ass.

[Luca]

Yes, but there is still a fact.
Minotaurs should be considered metavariants of trolls in North America or Germany....but I prefer trolls to be considered a metavariant of minotaurs in Greece!!!!
I do not like Italy or Greece to be full of elves.....we are not bloody, damned, Germans or celts, we are a Mediterranean culture!!

[Ancient History]

Too bad, Luca. Everyone has to live with elves. If it makes you feel any better, less elves probably UGE'd in Greece and Italy because of the mountainous terrain; and you can palm off most of the others as Theran descendants or imports.

And do you reaaally want the minotaur metavariant to be related to actual minotaurs? Think about that for a second. Nonsentient nonhumanoid critter -> sentient humanoid metavariant.

I mean, that's just begging for someone to go claim a bounty.

[Luca]

WELL, I was not clear. I was not speaking about the minotaur critter but the sentient minotaur.
Trolls-cyclops-giants-minotaurs are all linked. In places of Anglosaxon-western-German culture (if America can be completely defined as that....probably it is better to say "western" types of cultures) Trolls seem to be the norm while cyclops and minotuars the variants....I would like to do the opposite in Greece and in Italy.
In any case, do not care about my opinion, I, myself, just do not like the Germanocentric view of Shadowrun, but that's only me.
I would like to know if there is, around, any really official answer to my question.
How many metas in Europes are:
not trolls but cyclops and minotaurs?
not dwarves but gnomes and Satyrs?
not elves but Night ones and Dryads?
not orcs but ogres? (what the hell hobgoblins and ogres are supposed to be in the Medieval European traditions\legends? I think these metavariants are just "D&D-derived", except than in D&d ogres are supposed to be bigger. I have no idea of the EarthDawn world, I was only thinking about the Real World legends\culture connections)

[Ancient History]

"Germanocentric?" That's a new one on me, chummer.

I can understand a desire for the Grecian metavariants to be more prominent.

Also, Satyrs are an ork metavariant, not a dwarf metavariant.

The ogre and hobgoblin metavariants do have a mythological basis, but I wouldn't say they're based solely on DnD critters.

[Synner]

Just for reference, in the canon Sixth World metavariants are only a fraction of the standard metaexpression even in their "homelands". This "fraction" has never been given actual values but the wording assumes they aren't the majority. That being said at several points in SoE and previous books its suggested that the percentage of metavariant expression in some countries is quite high (giant trolls in Scandinavia, minotaurs trolls in Spain, menehune dwarves in Hawaii, Oni orks in Japan). As a guideline one SoE we assumed that these metavariant populations would number no more than 30% of their basic meta expression population.

Regarding the mythological/geographic links, it's pretty much assumed in SR that the cultures that carried the legends through the downcycle had the same geographic roots as the original metavariants which inspired said legends, hence: Cyclops and minotaurs probably originate from Greek, Minoan and possibly Phoenician ethnicities; satyrs are likely Greek, Italian and from around the Mediterranean basin (there are several Turkic and Arabic legends about goat-footed men); gnomes and ogres originate mostly from Germanic and Nordic lore; giants and dryads fit a number of different ancient legends from the Fey, the Germanic, Norse and even Roman mythologies (although the former figure most preeminently in Norse and Germanic mythology); hobgoblins are from Eastern Europe and might be linked to legends of the Fey. Fomorians, gnomes and night ones (if we link them to certain legends of the Unseelie/Winter court of the Fey) are mostly of Celtic and Nordic inspiration.

There is very little "Germanocentric" about SR's approach to metahumanity and particularly not to the metavariants.

[MYST1C]

[akarenti]

Plus, if you ignore the Names, elves greatly could very well be equated to sirens, nymphs, about a zillian other things that appeared as inhumanly attractive and magically potent in Classical Mythology; not to mention abnormally clever and charismatic heros.

Most cultures have abnormally short people, too, so dwarves aren't that farfetched.

Orks and Trolls are a bit more difficult--but every culture has barbaric monsters that were just intellegent enough to get tricked by the more clever hero.

[Ancient History]

Hey now-Barbarossa was a troll too!

[Chibu]

Well, the thing is, the meta-variants will be very sparse. And, I can tell you exactly why. Shadowrun is the successor (in time anyway) to Earthdawn. In which, there were none of these silly meta-variants. They are simply the result of thousands of years of inbreeding and (in the case of shifters) bestiality. >_<

And, being that Earthdawn takes place in south-western Russia (between the Black and Caspian Seas and just north of the Caucus mountains), which is a part of Europe, the dominant Type of meta-humans should be dwarves.

The only reasons that i can come up with that humans are still the most dominant are:
1. Mana level has not finished rising yet.
2. The cross-breading has brought out a human dominant gene in most people
3. Because the players of Shadowrun are human, they didn't want to make it too far from reality.

I think the third is the most likely reason, and the first is the most likely SR reason.

just my .02 :nuyen: ^-^

EDIT:

[Prospero]

I actually have to disagree with you on that last point. Formorians (or Fomoiri in Old Irish) are AFAIK only in Irish myth and they're attested to as otherworldly opponents of the Tuatha De Danann a good bit before anyone would have been confusing them for Scandanavians. Anyway, the Irish saw a lot of Scandanavians when they started seeing them and would probably not have been confusing them for strange monsters or anything.

Another thing about the Earthdawn connection is that we really don't know anything about the end of the 4th age - maybe lots of the metavariants got started then? Okay, that's a bit of a stretch, but, hey. And, anyway, Earthdawn didn't cover much beyond Barsaive IIRC so variants could have been around in other places and the 5th world just allowed them to spread their genes around. So maybe Greece really did have a lot of Cyclopses back then. Who knows?

[Chibu]

I'll have to go back and re-read some things to make sure, but, Scandianavia WAS like an 'otherworld' back in the day (but, yes, i know what you mean) and, you are right, that is what the newer stories say. (And by newer i'm not talking NEW) But, the way it's worded in the old tales... i'll look it up, and post again when i find something.

[Ancient History]

It's not strictly true that metavariants didn't exist in the 4th world...the differences between races become more extreme in many cases. Ogres, for example.

[audun]

[Prospero]

[torzzzzz]

if we are talking about variants of mythical creatures what class would harpys come under? most of the mythical creatures of ancient Greece were cool just look at the stuff Jason had to fight and i can definitely say they were not elves!

Also look at northen Europe we had the best Warewolves and vampires originated in hungary and Germany!

torz x :)

[Luca]

The division Elves/Dwarves, to my knowledge, is a rationalization made by Tolkien of legends from Northern (or germanic, or Saxon or whatever you like but NOT MEDITERRANEAN) folklore.
I doubt that that Saxon farmer of 10th century AD was able to distinguish dwarves and elves as we are able to distinguish them through tolkienian pespectives.
In any case, the point is that the SR races are still dependent of Tolkienian parameters and therefore northern parameters.
The presence of Troll in Greece is a bit strange to me but the presence of Cyclops in Greece is more interesting. Therefore I`m just thinking about how much the local folklore was really important in shaping metavariants.
maybe in Germany local traditions favoured Elves and Trolls....but in any case, for sure Italian Folklore do not comprehend Elves, Trolls and Dwarves. I can tell it because I`M ITALIAN.
Even if you want to identify Sirens with Elves (and it is a shit of hypothesis) I cannot support it because I can tell that we had further folklore after the Classical Period Literature and Italian medieval tales have no Siren to my memory.....
Let be FRANK: Shadowrun creators look at the thing with an Western, American Anglo-Saxon perspective, not with a local one....an example is the fact that in SoE although Germany section was written by german authors the Italian Section was written by a man with a certainly NON-Italian-but-english name.....and this could say a lot about the real "local feeling" of that section...

[audun]

[akarenti]

[akarenti]

Luca: What type of mythological beings from post-Classical Italian folklore would you like to see in SR?

[Synner]

[hermit]