 How much to y'all use multi "class" chars?, example: spell slinging gun user |
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 Mar 2 2005, 12:58 AM
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#26
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775  |
I really just don't see that. You can throw in some substantial social skills with the standard street sam archetype, and it essentially works about the same as a street sam taking a level or two in face. The problem I keep seeing is that SR only allows for a narrow construction of useful (for a runner, anyway) abilities, and these almost always fall within the specific guidelines of an archetype. Yeah, you don't get the restricted progression of a DnD level-type progression (I don't have to get 6 levels in Etiquette before I'm allowed to take Negotion, or whatever), but I don't see enough freedom to even begin to consider it really free form. |
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Mar 2 2005, 12:52 AM
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#27
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Depends on the Street Sam... some Sammys out there would un-nerve everyone, and social skills be damned. There's also the thing about obvious cyberware and Social penalties... |
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Mar 2 2005, 12:56 AM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
The obvious cyberware and social penaly rules sound a hell of a lot more like a class system than less.
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Mar 2 2005, 01:05 AM
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#29
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I think he's using 4 shots per Combat Phase, according to his description, which is what I was interested in. It's not canon, of course. The way we allowed it in our games basically amounted to a subprocessor that worked like a low-level encephalon or tac computer, so one can multi-task and quickly process targeting duties. *shrugs* Whatever works for each person's game, I guess.
I'm fully aware of this, but I was merely curious. The poster's response confirmed my theory. |
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Mar 2 2005, 12:58 AM
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#30
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I wasn't arguing for or against your claim. Although when I think of "classes", I think of Palladium's OCC system and pre-3rd edition DnD. Or pretty much any MMORPG out there other than Ultima Online. |
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Mar 2 2005, 01:12 AM
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#31
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Guests |
My bad. I think it's a bad idea. But I also think it's a bad idea to not combined cybernetic magnification with Smartlink bonuses, since it just doesn't make any sense. But I don't even like guns, so what the hell do I know? |
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Mar 2 2005, 01:22 AM
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#32
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
My group:
- rigger/electronics specialist, also a somewhat decent decker - physad with spellslinging powers who also has cybernetic eyes and is a - terrible - decker, as well as a face (and makes everyone believe he is a kickass decker, going to great lengthts to maintain that ilusion) - stealth and guns specialised physad - combat mage (mage who wears body armour, has cybernetic eyes, a smartlink and an Ares Alpha) - a pretty straight forward streetsam - a mage-poser streetsam who can double as a human flame thrower (the sick things you can do with an internal gas tank and an eye laser ...) How to cathegorise these? And believe me, I have seen even odder groups. In other words ... I canot see any "classes" or "roles" in Shadowrun, as there are in so many games. One of the main appeals of the system, at least to me. |
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Mar 2 2005, 01:34 AM
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#33
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Heh. The fact that you can't combine smartlink with magnification is the only reason why we thought the idea would be balanced. I remember how many times the pistols experts in our group were "outranged" by their opponents and had to hunker down in cover doing practically nothing. Specialization can hurt, sometimes. |
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Mar 2 2005, 01:54 AM
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#34
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Sounds more like realism to me. In the same way someone born mundane can't really be a spellslinger, and you can't really be a decker without a datajack or a deck. There have to be *some* mechanical limitations, or everyone would have every skill t 8, every attribute at 9, 6 points of cyberware, 9 points of bioware, and initiate grade 100 at chargen. |
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Mar 2 2005, 02:09 AM
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#35
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
How, exactly, is it realistic that a society subsumed by technological dehumanization and corporate influence would be cyberphobic? All those rules were design contrivances because the SR designers wanted to differentiate faces as a 'class,' or if you really dislike the word, a distinct role.
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Mar 2 2005, 02:16 AM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Yeah. Complete freedom to take any combination of cyberware, equipment, skills, attributes, race, and magical capability that you can cram into your body and your build point/priority allowance is exactly like a character class system.
:please: |
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Mar 2 2005, 02:27 AM
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#37
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I don't think corporate influence has much to do with being cyberphobic, other than sociology and group behavior upon the individual. Honestly, it probably has to do with the degree of the modification of said sammie and the upbringing of the individual interacting with him/her. Just like different people will have different reactions to a man with tattoos over 95% of his skin surface area and 20 obvious piercings. Shadowrun's society is still very much a non-cybered society as a whole, with different levels of integration of technology within subgroups. |
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Mar 2 2005, 02:28 AM
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#38
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's one explanation, but it's hardly the only one. it's not even the only reasonable explanation. for instance, it's just as likely that it was intended to further underline the connections between essence and 'humanity'. given that cyberware doesn't yet exist, it's ludicrous to argue the issue either way. it's all made up to begin with; "reality" doesn't enter into it at all.
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Mar 2 2005, 03:32 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
Every character should be "multi class". If youre not bringing at least 2-3 solid abilites to the team youre a waste of space. If you really work on it you can often fit in 4 or more, especially with a little karma. And I dont mean "I cast combat spells and shoot thats two" cause thats only one, doing damage. Comeon be inventive.
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Mar 2 2005, 03:35 AM
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#40
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Bull. You don't hire a specialist for their ability to do other things.
~J |
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Mar 2 2005, 03:54 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
Every one of my characters, without exception, is good at at least two seperate things, though they might be related. Most every character I employ has a melee combat skill and a ranged combat skill both at a rating of at least 4, regardless of whether they're a decker, street samurai, magician, or rigger. Off the top of my head, I've got...
Gawain: Decker with a minor complement of combat cyberware and adept powers. Pierce: Combat mage with tons of customized combat cyberware/bioware and good ranged combat/tactical skills. Minerva: Face/social engineer with both combat and social cyberware/bioware and lethal melee combat skills. Slate: Fixer/crimelord former mercenary with good accounting/organizational skills, as well as a body crammed full of combat cyberware/bioware. Lots of very high combat skills as well as social/knowledge ones. Zack: He can do pretty much everything you don't need a datajack to excel in, and do it pretty well. He really shines at melee combat and magical tasks, though. |
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Mar 2 2005, 03:59 AM
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#42
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
You also don't hire a cardboard cutout to do something that may require redundancies. Sure, in a perfect world everyone would only have one specialty, because they'd only need one. The one decker would never get fried, never get attacked outside the Matrix, never get cornered by a hostile spirit, and never have to sneak into anything. The mage would never get shot at, would never need to use the Matrix for anything, and never need to even see a car, much less drive one. The rigger would never be outside his riggermobile, etc etc. The real world doesn't work that way. That's why you need people who can cover other people's bases on occasion, and why the game almost encourages multiclassing by enforcing a glass ceiling on any specific specialization at chargen and making each particular specialization quadratically or even exponentially more expensive to improve. |
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Mar 2 2005, 04:23 AM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Quadratically or exponentially?
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Mar 2 2005, 04:38 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
My character's a Magician's Way Adept, following the Invisible Way, and the Hermetic tradition.
He doesn't have any 'ware yet, though. Any suggestions out there? (I'd like to stick with Bioware if possible, and with luck, I'll find some way to geas away the magic loss.... :)) --Foreigner |
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Mar 2 2005, 04:31 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
[deleted double post)
--Foreigner |
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Mar 2 2005, 04:44 AM
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#46
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Skills, attributes and initiation costs increase quadratically; that is, the cost of each step is proportional to the number of the step. The addition of multipliers at certain cuttoff points, however--the *3 multiplier at the Racial Modified Limit, for instance, or the extra multiplier for increasing a skill beyond the linked Attribute--is an exponential trend. Or maybe it's just a higher-order polynomial? It's rather hard to define, as it's a stepped multiplier like that and my stat vocabulary isn't really that good. Sorry if it wasn't clear. |
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Mar 2 2005, 04:56 AM
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#47
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well what are you looking for? There's cyber/bio to cover every single archetype out there; just pick which one/two/seven you want to enhance and go for it. Geasea have made cybering up a mage a very accesible option, though some here have some dogmatic reasons to hate said option and will do everything possible to dissuade you. Then again, a geas is really not a perfect substitute for an actual Magic point, of which you are no doubt aware. |
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Mar 2 2005, 05:43 AM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Its not that rare in the game I run. Not necessarily due to the players in my group, but more because of the NPC's I introduce them to. Every player plays a fairly "pure class"... as much as I hate to use that word in SR. :) |
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Mar 2 2005, 09:37 AM
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#49
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Nope, that was all Pistons (far be it from me to have any impact on official material), and she actually made them very...different...than I would have (and her "generic" Ghost team was actually very different from I'd expect them to be, given the statistical breakdown given in TT). My scary Ghost team would be quite a bit different from her scary Ghost team (and with similar vague sort of resources and skill points, etc, that she used). But, well, then none of the PC's woulda made it out of that game, ever (not that it's an easy fight as written, mind you). I think she under-represented magic with her team, and used it in a less than efficient manner, too (given the single mage, and his capabilities). I think Ghosts would take advantage of their absurdly high head count of spellcasting-and-summoning capable members by using them in a primarily non-combatant role, augmenting their adepts/chromeboys rather than joining them in every brawl and just being another manabolt among assault rifles, or manaball among grenade launchers. But, anyways. Yeah. Off topic. And immaterial. |
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Mar 2 2005, 09:46 AM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's worth pointing out that they're in the same class of "jesus christ" as Italy. oh, and also Connor.
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