Shadow Beast
Mar 1 2005, 06:34 PM
I know Shadowrun doesn't have classes but there comparable builds, street sam, full mage etc. It seems like my character is a rarity. He uses hermetic spells and has dual pistols with smartlinks. He has utility spells and wears armor of a gunfighter. I wanna know what kind of odd combination characters anyone else has.
GrinderTheTroll
Mar 1 2005, 06:30 PM
I say this is more common than you realize. Excessive implants would put you in the "burn out" category, but it's all how you role-play your character IMO.
hahnsoo
Mar 1 2005, 06:34 PM
QUOTE (Shadow Beast @ Mar 1 2005, 01:34 PM) |
I know Shadowrun doesn't have classes but there comparable builds, street sam, full mage etc. It seems like my character is a rarity. He uses hermetic spells and has dual pistols with smartlinks. He has utility spells and wears armor of a gunfighter. I wanna know what kind of odd combination characters anyone else has. |
My current character is a Magician's Way adept, Hermetic spell slinger with dual revolvers here. Not rare at all, I'd say.
Dual Pistols with smartlinks, eh? How did you pull that off?
In the past, I've had a Fire Elementalist/decker/sniper, a street sam/rigger, a corp suit/decker, a Hermetic Mage/Rigger/Decker, and a Cyber Adept/Street Doc. I don't think "multiclassing" is really an appropriate term once you get into shadowrun character creation.
Critias
Mar 1 2005, 06:38 PM
I'm running a fantastic street sam, mediocre decker, decent face, awful Adept. Does that count?
Sharaloth
Mar 1 2005, 06:41 PM
Indeed. Many a game has seen 'multi-class' characters. Personally, I've seen mage/deckers, Face/Adepts, Sammy/Riggers, etc, etc.
The way SR works is far more free-form than 'class' based. There are archetypes, but it's very easy to cross archetypes in character creation, and even easier to develop across archetype bounds as the game progresses (assuming, of course, your character survives). There's no reason you can't have a Covert Ops / Weapons Specialist / Face / Mage. It get's hard to balance things, yeah, but you could do it.
And if you don't mind the hit in power points... why the hell NOT have an Adept with Smartlink?
Mortax
Mar 1 2005, 06:57 PM
There was one guy in our group who made a conjuring adept with a weapon focus and a tac computer. It would have worked okay, but he only had a charisma of 4.
The Wildcats use physads with cyber. Scarry. Come to think of it, so do both Tirs.
I made a mage rigger once, but never got to play it. Maybe soon. (insert evil grin)
Shadow Beast
Mar 1 2005, 06:53 PM
QUOTE |
I'm running a fantastic street sam, mediocre decker, decent face, awful Adept. Does that count? |
I guess so. :grin:
QUOTE |
Dual Pistols with smartlinks, eh? How did you pull that off? |
Did my group house rule for 2 smartlinks? I went through a big ordeal to get cybereyes(delta) and smartlinks(delta) and took the -1 to magic attribute and -.45 essence or something.
I guess its my group giving me a distorted view of things, Im the only magic character with ANY cyber/bioware, the only mage thats fights hand to hand (when needed), the only etc.
The sam is just that, the mage just a mage.
ShadowGhost
Mar 1 2005, 07:03 PM
I like running Full Shaman/Sammie, taking 2 Ess. pts of Cyber, and two points Bioware for a final magic rating of 3.
I usually take spells that complement the cyber/sammie, stealth, Imp. Inv., a Force 1 Power foci so I can cast at force 4 without taking physical damage, some Elemental Manips, rarely take combat spells, and lots of health spells.
Sharaloth
Mar 1 2005, 07:19 PM
A sammy in the game I'm running did the 'firing with two smartlinked weapons' thing too. It took me two sessions to figure out what he was doing, then I asked for his character sheet saying: "You realize that the Smartlink bonus only applies to one weapon, you don't get the -2 for both." Then I noticed something on his sheet, looked back up. "You have two smartlinks, don't you?" He just grinned and nodded. I figured, hey, if he wants to pay the cost in money and essence for both of them, he can have the bonus applied to both (It can't be that hard to set the colour of the targeter different for each smartlink). Of course, the penalties for firing two weapons still apply, so it wasn't something game-breaking. (Well, not until later, when I decided to give him access to as much Delta tech as he could conceivably pay or bargain for)
I've never seen a magician or Adept PCin any of my games take a smartlink, which is kinda odd, considering the firefights we get into. Even the Awakened characters who took on cyber or bio enhancements (decker/mage, face/adept), didn't go in for a smartlink, even when they had the Essence to spare.
hahnsoo
Mar 1 2005, 07:19 PM
QUOTE (Shadow Beast @ Mar 1 2005, 01:53 PM) |
QUOTE | Dual Pistols with smartlinks, eh? How did you pull that off? |
Did my group house rule for 2 smartlinks? I went through a big ordeal to get cybereyes(delta) and smartlinks(delta) and took the -1 to magic attribute and -.45 essence or something.
|
So you get 4 shots all with a -2 Smartgun modifier? That sounds like smelly cheese to me (since the whole point of the 2 smartlinks not working is because you can't concentrate on two targets simultaneously, sans Encephalon or Tac Comp), but I'm not complaining... I have a Force 6 enhanced aim, which makes my character even more disgustingly powerful, especially after I get the Attuning metamagic.
EDIT: I'm basically saying that your setup isn't munchkin, since it sounds like you went through some effort to get what you have, and apparently magic can do better than the Cyber.
ShadowGhost
Mar 1 2005, 07:23 PM
Of course, Enhance Aim is resisted, just like ALL detection spells, plus it's only good for Pistol Range
hahnsoo
Mar 1 2005, 07:27 PM
QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
Of course, Enhance Aim is resisted, just like ALL detection spells, plus it's only good for Pistol Range |
I also have a specific spell focus for it, and probably roll about 20 dice total when it comes down the pipe... resist that! *grin*
My main problem, actually, are those darn projecting mages and spirits, since they have a nasty habit of dispelling my Enhanced Aim or the Elemental/Sustaining Focus that is sustaining it. I always have to wait for our Raccoon shaman to do astral overwatch before using it.
ShadowGhost
Mar 1 2005, 07:31 PM
And you require two successes on TN 6 for each -1 YN modifier it provides, up to a max of 1/2 the force of the spell.... so you're needed to roll six 6's to get that -3 max.
On the other hand, this spell is cumulative with optical vision mag (not electronic), laser sights, and non-cybered smartlink... so it's got its good and bad sides to it.
Off topic... is there a goggles version of Smartlink 2, or is that Smartlink 2 Cyber only?
hahnsoo
Mar 1 2005, 07:44 PM
QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
And you require two successes on TN 6 for each -1 YN modifier it provides, up to a max of 1/2 the force of the spell.... so you're needed to roll six 6's to get that -3 max. |
Correct. I usually go for about 8 or 9 successes using Karma before sustaining it in a sustaining focus or with an Elemental, for the potential resistance tests. It's a bit expensive, but the edge it gives is pretty cheesy.
Kagetenshi
Mar 1 2005, 07:47 PM
In my experience, it's exceedingly common. The rarity is single "class" characters; in our game, specialized means only doing two things (Rigger/Face, Streetsam/Electronics Guy, Combat Decker) instead of lots (Riggerdeckerfacemage).
~J
BitBasher
Mar 1 2005, 09:09 PM
I agree with Kage, I find "pure" characters to be very rare.
it depends on your terms. i mean, is a street sam with Electronics 6 'multiclassing', or just realistically diversified?
DragginSPADE
Mar 1 2005, 10:57 PM
I've noticed that the larger a group is, the more specialized the characters get. In my old game in high school, we had a medium sized group where everyone played a relatively specialized character. Anymore, I'm either running solo or with one other player, so our characters are jacks of all trades.
Snow_Fox
Mar 1 2005, 11:34 PM
peopel have already said it, but it's pretty common because htis frees you up in ways you can't with classes. True the more cyber you load on a character the less mojo she'll have but it's more role playing than anything. My main character is a shaman but she acts more like the gorup's face and that's where many of her skills lie.
Kagetenshi
Mar 1 2005, 11:49 PM
QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 1 2005, 04:34 PM) |
it depends on your terms. i mean, is a street sam with Electronics 6 'multiclassing', or just realistically diversified? |
A combat specialist being a top-of-the-line professional in Electronics is a dual-specialized character, not "realistically diversified".
Electronics 1 or 2, maybe 3, but not 6.
~J
hm. i guess i 'multiclass' a lot more often than i thought.
Arethusa
Mar 1 2005, 11:58 PM
QUOTE (Sharaloth) |
The way SR works is far more free-form than 'class' based. |
That's not really entirely true. The game may at first appear free form, but it is in fact soft classed based (the only true departure from more traditional DnD mechanics, in that regard, is level progression, and that's not even really true with awakened characters). Yes, there is some overlap in using cyberware for the awakened (and, if you're metagaming, you damn well better be using cyberware, because the downsides are dramatically outweighed by what you get), but it's not that significant. SR is still very much a class based game, and what overlap there is plays more like multiclassing than anything truly freeform.
This is even more true with DnD 3.0/3.5, where skills are open to everyone, anyone can take levels in almost any other class, etc.
Kagetenshi
Mar 1 2005, 11:52 PM
QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 1 2005, 06:48 PM) |
hm. i guess i 'multiclass' a lot more often than i thought. |
I suppose I misspoke.
Do you take Computers as well, or Electronics or Computers B/R? One of them I can see as not being dual-specialized per se, though it's definitely outside the realm of believably diversified. Once you get into two or three, or the Holy Quad, you're suddenly into Streetsam/Tech realm IMO.
Arethusa: I have to disagree pretty solidly. There are soft classes, but they smudge so much that you only hit multiclass-like things when trying to go three or more different directions at once, IMO.
~J
only because players tend to gravitate towards specific, provided archtypes. there's nothing that keeps you from playing a completely useless (from a runner perspective) scientist, for instance.
Crimsondude 2.0
Mar 2 2005, 12:33 AM
QUOTE (Shadow Beast @ Mar 1 2005, 11:34 AM) |
It seems like my character is a rarity. He uses hermetic spells and has dual pistols with smartlinks. He has utility spells and wears armor of a gunfighter. I wanna know what kind of odd combination characters anyone else has. |
That's rare?
QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
Dual Pistols with smartlinks, eh? How did you pull that off? |
Same way I did: Two smartlinks (actually, it's more like 1.5 if you use the components from M&M), and the 8 pt. Ambidexterity Edge.
You can't shoot 4 rounds per round while using the SL mod, but it makes it possible to carry two pistols, SMGs, or a mix and switch off within a round without having to switch weapons.
QUOTE (Mortax) |
The Wildcats use physads with cyber. Scarry. Come to think of it, so do both Tirs. |
Ask Critias about how scary TT Ghost physad hostage rescue assault teams can be. I have little doubt that he's partially responsible for why the Ghosts in Corporate Punishment are so badass.
QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
So you get 4 shots all with a -2 Smartgun modifier? |
No. The rules don't allow that.
QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
peopel have already said it, but it's pretty common because htis frees you up in ways you can't with classes. True the more cyber you load on a character the less mojo she'll have but it's more role playing than anything. My main character is a shaman but she acts more like the gorup's face and that's where many of her skills lie. |
I've been patient long enough.
Use the friggin' spellchecker! Jesus. You're a grown, educated English-speaking woman. Yet whenever I see a post, I am never surprised to see it full of typos. Something is wrong with this picture.
Please. Baby Jesus will thank you.
Arethusa
Mar 2 2005, 12:58 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
Arethusa: I have to disagree pretty solidly. There are soft classes, but they smudge so much that you only hit multiclass-like things when trying to go three or more different directions at once, IMO. |
I really just don't see that. You can throw in some substantial social skills with the standard street sam archetype, and it essentially works about the same as a street sam taking a level or two in face. The problem I keep seeing is that SR only allows for a narrow construction of useful (for a runner, anyway) abilities, and these almost always fall within the specific guidelines of an archetype. Yeah, you don't get the restricted progression of a DnD level-type progression (I don't have to get 6 levels in Etiquette before I'm allowed to take Negotion, or whatever), but I don't see enough freedom to even begin to consider it really free form.
hahnsoo
Mar 2 2005, 12:52 AM
QUOTE (Arethusa) |
You can throw in some substantial social skills with the standard street sam archetype, and it essentially works about the same as a street sam taking a level or two in face. |
Depends on the Street Sam... some Sammys out there would un-nerve everyone, and social skills be damned. There's also the thing about obvious cyberware and Social penalties...
Arethusa
Mar 2 2005, 12:56 AM
The obvious cyberware and social penaly rules sound a hell of a lot more like a class system than less.
hahnsoo
Mar 2 2005, 01:05 AM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Mar 1 2005, 07:33 PM) |
QUOTE (hahnsoo) | Dual Pistols with smartlinks, eh? How did you pull that off? |
Same way I did: Two smartlinks (actually, it's more like 1.5 if you use the components from M&M), and the 8 pt. Ambidexterity Edge.
You can't shoot 4 rounds per round while using the SL mod, but it makes it possible to carry two pistols, SMGs, or a mix and switch off within a round without having to switch weapons.
|
I think he's using 4 shots per Combat Phase, according to his description, which is what I was interested in. It's not canon, of course. The way we allowed it in our games basically amounted to a subprocessor that worked like a low-level encephalon or tac computer, so one can multi-task and quickly process targeting duties. *shrugs* Whatever works for each person's game, I guess.
QUOTE |
QUOTE (hahnsoo) | So you get 4 shots all with a -2 Smartgun modifier? |
No. The rules don't allow that.
|
I'm fully aware of this, but I was merely curious. The poster's response confirmed my theory.
hahnsoo
Mar 2 2005, 12:58 AM
QUOTE (Arethusa) |
The obvious cyberware and social penaly rules sound a hell of a lot more like a class system than less. |
I wasn't arguing for or against your claim. Although when I think of "classes", I think of Palladium's OCC system and pre-3rd edition DnD. Or pretty much any MMORPG out there other than Ultima Online.
Crimsondude 2.0
Mar 2 2005, 01:12 AM
QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
I think he's using 4 shots per Combat Phase, according to his description, which is what I was interested in. It's not canon, of course. The way we allowed it in our games basically amounted to a subprocessor that worked like a low-level encephalon or tac computer, so one can multi-task and quickly process targeting duties. *shrugs* Whatever works for each person's game, I guess. |
My bad. I think it's a bad idea. But I also think it's a bad idea to not combined cybernetic magnification with Smartlink bonuses, since it just doesn't make any sense.
But I don't even like guns, so what the hell do I know?
hermit
Mar 2 2005, 01:22 AM
My group:
- rigger/electronics specialist, also a somewhat decent decker
- physad with spellslinging powers who also has cybernetic eyes and is a - terrible - decker, as well as a face (and makes everyone believe he is a kickass decker, going to great lengthts to maintain that ilusion)
- stealth and guns specialised physad
- combat mage (mage who wears body armour, has cybernetic eyes, a smartlink and an Ares Alpha)
- a pretty straight forward streetsam
- a mage-poser streetsam who can double as a human flame thrower (the sick things you can do with an internal gas tank and an eye laser ...)
How to cathegorise these? And believe me, I have seen even odder groups.
In other words ... I canot see any "classes" or "roles" in Shadowrun, as there are in so many games. One of the main appeals of the system, at least to me.
hahnsoo
Mar 2 2005, 01:34 AM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
My bad. I think it's a bad idea. But I also think it's a bad idea to not combined cybernetic magnification with Smartlink bonuses, since it just doesn't make any sense.
But I don't even like guns, so what the hell do I know? |
Heh. The fact that you can't combine smartlink with magnification is the only reason why we thought the idea would be balanced. I remember how many times the pistols experts in our group were "outranged" by their opponents and had to hunker down in cover doing practically nothing. Specialization can hurt, sometimes.
Eyeless Blond
Mar 2 2005, 01:54 AM
QUOTE (Arethusa) |
The obvious cyberware and social penaly rules sound a hell of a lot more like a class system than less. |
Sounds more like realism to me. In the same way someone born mundane can't really be a spellslinger, and you can't really be a decker without a datajack or a deck. There have to be *some* mechanical limitations, or everyone would have every skill t 8, every attribute at 9, 6 points of cyberware, 9 points of bioware, and initiate grade 100 at chargen.
Arethusa
Mar 2 2005, 02:09 AM
How, exactly, is it realistic that a society subsumed by technological dehumanization and corporate influence would be cyberphobic? All those rules were design contrivances because the SR designers wanted to differentiate faces as a 'class,' or if you really dislike the word, a distinct role.
John Campbell
Mar 2 2005, 02:16 AM
Yeah. Complete freedom to take any combination of cyberware, equipment, skills, attributes, race, and magical capability that you can cram into your body and your build point/priority allowance is
exactly like a character class system.
hahnsoo
Mar 2 2005, 02:27 AM
QUOTE (Arethusa) |
How, exactly, is it realistic that a society subsumed by technological dehumanization and corporate influence would be cyberphobic? All those rules were design contrivances because the SR designers wanted to differentiate faces as a 'class,' or if you really dislike the word, a distinct role. |
I don't think corporate influence has much to do with being cyberphobic, other than sociology and group behavior upon the individual. Honestly, it probably has to do with the degree of the modification of said sammie and the upbringing of the individual interacting with him/her. Just like different people will have different reactions to a man with tattoos over 95% of his skin surface area and 20 obvious piercings. Shadowrun's society is still very much a non-cybered society as a whole, with different levels of integration of technology within subgroups.
that's one explanation, but it's hardly the only one. it's not even the only reasonable explanation. for instance, it's just as likely that it was intended to further underline the connections between essence and 'humanity'. given that cyberware doesn't yet exist, it's ludicrous to argue the issue either way. it's all made up to begin with; "reality" doesn't enter into it at all.
The White Dwarf
Mar 2 2005, 03:32 AM
Every character should be "multi class". If youre not bringing at least 2-3 solid abilites to the team youre a waste of space. If you really work on it you can often fit in 4 or more, especially with a little karma. And I dont mean "I cast combat spells and shoot thats two" cause thats only one, doing damage. Comeon be inventive.
Kagetenshi
Mar 2 2005, 03:35 AM
Bull. You don't hire a specialist for their ability to do other things.
~J
Wireknight
Mar 2 2005, 03:54 AM
Every one of my characters, without exception, is good at at least two seperate things, though they might be related. Most every character I employ has a melee combat skill and a ranged combat skill both at a rating of at least 4, regardless of whether they're a decker, street samurai, magician, or rigger. Off the top of my head, I've got...
Gawain: Decker with a minor complement of combat cyberware and adept powers.
Pierce: Combat mage with tons of customized combat cyberware/bioware and good ranged combat/tactical skills.
Minerva: Face/social engineer with both combat and social cyberware/bioware and lethal melee combat skills.
Slate: Fixer/crimelord former mercenary with good accounting/organizational skills, as well as a body crammed full of combat cyberware/bioware. Lots of very high combat skills as well as social/knowledge ones.
Zack: He can do pretty much everything you don't need a datajack to excel in, and do it pretty well. He really shines at melee combat and magical tasks, though.
Eyeless Blond
Mar 2 2005, 03:59 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
Bull. You don't hire a specialist for their ability to do other things. |
You also don't hire a cardboard cutout to do something that may require redundancies. Sure, in a perfect world everyone would only have one specialty, because they'd only need one. The one decker would never get fried, never get attacked outside the Matrix, never get cornered by a hostile spirit, and never have to sneak into anything. The mage would never get shot at, would never need to use the Matrix for anything, and never need to even see a car, much less drive one. The rigger would never be outside his riggermobile, etc etc.
The real world doesn't work that way. That's why you need people who can cover other people's bases on occasion, and why the game almost encourages multiclassing by enforcing a glass ceiling on any specific specialization at chargen and making each particular specialization quadratically or even exponentially more expensive to improve.
Arethusa
Mar 2 2005, 04:23 AM
Quadratically or exponentially?
Foreigner
Mar 2 2005, 04:38 AM
My character's a Magician's Way Adept, following the Invisible Way, and the Hermetic tradition.
He doesn't have any 'ware yet, though.
Any suggestions out there?
(I'd like to stick with Bioware if possible, and with luck, I'll find some way to
geas away the magic loss....
![smile.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
)
--Foreigner
Foreigner
Mar 2 2005, 04:31 AM
[deleted double post)
--Foreigner
Eyeless Blond
Mar 2 2005, 04:44 AM
QUOTE (Arethusa) |
Quadratically or exponentially? |
Skills, attributes and initiation costs increase quadratically; that is, the cost of each step is proportional to the number of the step. The addition of multipliers at certain cuttoff points, however--the *3 multiplier at the Racial Modified Limit, for instance, or the extra multiplier for increasing a skill beyond the linked Attribute--is an exponential trend. Or maybe it's just a higher-order polynomial? It's rather hard to define, as it's a stepped multiplier like that and my stat vocabulary isn't really that good. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
Eyeless Blond
Mar 2 2005, 04:56 AM
QUOTE (Foreigner) |
My character's a Magician's Way Adept, following the Invisible Way, and the Hermetic tradition.
He doesn't have any 'ware yet, though.
Any suggestions out there?
(I'd like to stick with Bioware if possible, and with luck, I'll find some way to geas away the magic loss.... )
--Foreigner |
Well what are you looking for? There's cyber/bio to cover every single archetype out there; just pick which one/two/seven you want to enhance and go for it. Geasea have made cybering up a mage a very accesible option, though some here have some dogmatic reasons to hate said option and will do everything possible to dissuade you. Then again, a geas is really not a perfect substitute for an actual Magic point, of which you are no doubt aware.
Crimson Jack
Mar 2 2005, 05:43 AM
QUOTE (Shadow Beast) |
I know Shadowrun doesn't have classes but there comparable builds, street sam, full mage etc. It seems like my character is a rarity. He uses hermetic spells and has dual pistols with smartlinks. He has utility spells and wears armor of a gunfighter. I wanna know what kind of odd combination characters anyone else has. |
Its not that rare in the game I run. Not necessarily due to the players in my group, but more because of the NPC's I introduce them to. Every player plays a fairly "pure class"... as much as I hate to use
that word in SR.
Critias
Mar 2 2005, 09:37 AM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
QUOTE (Mortax) | The Wildcats use physads with cyber. Scarry. Come to think of it, so do both Tirs. |
Ask Critias about how scary TT Ghost physad hostage rescue assault teams can be. I have little doubt that he's partially responsible for why the Ghosts in Corporate Punishment are so badass.
|
Nope, that was all Pistons (far be it from me to have any impact on official material), and she actually made them very...different...than I would have (and her "generic" Ghost team was actually very different from I'd expect them to be, given the statistical breakdown given in TT).
My scary Ghost team would be quite a bit different from her scary Ghost team (and with similar vague sort of resources and skill points, etc, that she used). But, well, then none of the PC's woulda made it out of that game, ever (not that it's an easy fight as written, mind you).
I think she under-represented magic with her team, and used it in a less than efficient manner, too (given the single mage, and his capabilities).
I think Ghosts would take advantage of their absurdly high head count of spellcasting-and-summoning capable members by using them in a primarily non-combatant role, augmenting their adepts/chromeboys rather than joining them in every brawl and just being another manabolt among assault rifles, or manaball among grenade launchers.
But, anyways. Yeah. Off topic. And immaterial.
it's worth pointing out that they're in the same class of "jesus christ" as Italy. oh, and also Connor.