Dragons, how can you kill em? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[torzzzzz]

Ok Just herd a rumor about the fact that we may be comeing up agaist a dragon, short of running away and haveing nothing to do with it........ Any of you vet's out there know how to deal with a dragon......... i dont want to end up toasty!!!


torz x :(

[Austere Emancipa...]

Great Dragon ATGMs

[Crusher Bob]

Arrange prostitute for GM, watch inconvenient dragon die to orbital cows...

On a less meta-gaming scale, any real ATGM should be able to kill a dragon just fine, assuming you can get a hit. IF the missile is not stopped my magic the dragon at least has a big hole in it. Anti-vehicular lasers and cannon should also work fine, though they are probably harder to get.

[Critias]

Yeah. Heavy weapons w/ armor piercing goodness (EX if you can't afford the good stuff), explosives, that sort of thing. It all just comes down to the Dragon, unfortunately, and how you're going to be fighting it.

A troll with a dikoted claymore might work, in a pinch.

[hermit]

How to deal with a dragon? Depends on the dragon really.

A Great from - haha, forget it. Just ... forget it. you'd not only be up to a creature with in effetcive fighting power like two or three Behemoths, and a highly intelligent one at that, no, you'd also have to face down a creature that can cast any spell, at any froce, with any number of successes, without even rolling! Plus, at least in the Earthdawn rules, Greats could make use of THEIR Karma pool to make YOU roll again, DISCARDING SUCCESSES THAT WAY. Talk about a nigh unbeatable enemy.

If faced with a Great, try to talk your way out. Suck up to it, beg for your life, anything. It's the only chance you have.

A common form: Harsh, but not impossible. You'll need a rigger (or better two) with a couple fo decent combat drones (Ares Guardian and Steel Lynx), at least three of them equipped with Vogeljäger SAMs or something similar, and the rest armed with autocannons or at the very least HMGs. Also, you'll need at least two initiated mages capable of delivering force 7 or higher combat spells. Make good use of spirits too, because banning them does cause the Dragon actions, and high-level Watcher Spirits can cause massive damage in astral combat. Take care that the dragon doesn't command them though! Also, any number of high-body combat characters (Orcs and Trolls, or humans and Elves with exagerated attributes; Dwarves might work too) will come in handy. Armour spells at high force are a must for these. A spirit to disguise the drones is also a really good idea.

And lastly, dictate the rules of engagement to the dragon, if at all possible. Use the surroundings against it. A classic is a couple of suicide bomber drones (small skimmers or crawlers packed with C-12) used against a dragon in closed spaces (like a cave) to max out gdamage using reflection.

It can be done,. but is highly difficult, especially if the GM is mean and as the dragon atack you in the open (a correctly played dragon can devastate almost anything in the open). Hence, avoid such encounters, if at all possible.

If fighting, expect to lose a couple of party members. Also, have a decent healing mage at the ready to deal with the survivors, who will most likely be wounded. Attack the dragon with coordinated missile rows, that decreases the chance of it intercepting the missiles. Use Karma pool, maybe even burn all of it in the process to buy successes where nescessary. Dragons can take damage phenomenally and have insane numbers of pool dice.

Lastly, running from a dragon is possibly the most sensible way to survive such a fight. ;)

If you face one, good luck, and if you survive, tell us how!

[Ancient History]

Call the United Talismongers Association and tell 'em you've got telesma on the hoof. They can keep what they fry.

[hobgoblin]

hmm, i belive i spotted a image over on elfwood about some people running from a pissed of dragon. one of the best images i have seen :P

tac nukes never fail in my view, but that may not exist in a runners toolkit.

[torzzzzz]

[U_Fester]

[Sandoval Smith]

If 'Bottled Demon" taught me anything, it was that the best way to fight a dragon is to have a (great) dragon backing you up.

[toturi]

If the dragon isn't a great, perhaps a Rating 10 Background count would give him some headaches.

[lorthazar]

How to kill a great form dragon

Well our group did it once but it cost us ungodly amounts of money and required the setup from BFE. We arranged a meet with the dragon and attempted to appease it with services, favors and such. This worked well for three missions so he got just a little cocky, he agreed to pick up our latest acquisition himself (and 20 guards), Now the Dragon thought it was a trap and boy was he right. Four of our contacts were using Walther Sniper rifles with APDS ammo. Balrog and Whisperdeath started unloading dikoted arrows from maxed out Ranger Compound Bows. Our two shamans and one mage were using magic to sheild us. ShadowJack and Stealmachine were each using gyro stabilized StonerAres HMG with EXEx. Quickdraw had a Missile luancher loaded with 2 AVM's and 2 ASAM's. Finally, The Terror was trying out out little invention called sprawl shot. (monowire jungleshot)

[Edward]

The great dragons. Run, hide, negotiate, plead, fire small arms and hope it is amused.

We met a lesser dragon once and it came to a confrontation. 2 bursts from a SA shotgun and it was down for the count. A third would be necessary to ensure nobody can save it. It helped that it wasted its first action trying to intimidate us.

There presumably is some middle ground between these extremes but as with any fight in shadow run, if you let it degenerate into a shooting mach you will not be happy at the end, even if you win. Wen facing the dragon if you decide to kill it I suggest burning all the combat pool (spell pool, control pool as appropriate) and a couple of karma pool rerolls you have in your first action fire the best weapons you have available and don’t bother with anything that’s going to take more than 1 combat turn to get going by the time the drones arrive from 2 blocks away something’s going to be dead.

Edward

[Tanka]

[Endgame50]

[Tanka]

[Endgame50]

Yeah. Ultimately, I wouldn't even want to try to take on a Great Dragon unless I was in an insanely powered game with hundreds or even thousands of karma... and even then I'd probably just figure out what the conflict with the wizworm was, and give it what it wanted.

[hermit]

... and the worst part about a Great is, it can conjure a Level 30 Armour spell on itself, just like that, without much of a roll, and then laugh at you and your dikote'd arrows and HMG EXEX rounds and monowire nets (it could also cast a Level 20 Flame Aura on itself on top of the Armour, burning the Monowire nets).

Greats are physically powerful, but, as DotSW says, are evenly matched with a squad of modern fighter planes or MBTs. It's their insane magic (and infinite KP) that makes them nigh invincible. Add to that some ten Great Form spirits and maybe a dozen high-cybered Minions or paracritters, and ... well ... was nice knowin' ya, chummer. I'll put soem flowers onto the little pile of ash (or dragon shit) that was you, once.

Lorthazar, you were lucky the GM did not play out the Great in the way it should have been played. It's not just the attributes, it's the magic that makes these creatures so powerful.

Their only weak spot may well be Orbital weapons, as they are outside the manasphere, and Dragons, as intensely magical beings, cannot affect anything outside the Earth's magical field. High-flying bombers, Thor projwectiles, possibly (though these, traveling well below light speed, might even be dodged by a Great), and orbital lasers and plasma weapons might be the only thing - save for startegic nukes - to kill a Great for good.

I wonder if that's the reason why Loffy is so involved with aviation and space-faring technology ... if he gains space superiority, he has that covered. And can boss around the other Greats ... hmmmmmmm ...

[Tanka]

As to the "nigh-infinite" KP, wrong.

Average dragon: 10-20 KP
Average Great: 50+

If a team of runners with enough KP (say 40 each, six runners) goes in, the GD will run out of KP pretty quick.

Not to mention anybody out of LOS won't have to worry about their KP being negated.

[BitBasher]

The + on the 50+ is the clencher as far as greats goes.

And Lorthazar, had your GM played the dragon half decent all that you threw at it would not have even been able to penetrate it's skin plus it's armor spell. It knew there was an ambush. It could have channeled a force 12 great form spirit, then been totally immune to any weapon with a base power of less than 24. That's not even counting an actual quickened or anchored armor or barrier spells.

That and the fact that (iirc) it can make you reroll all your sucesses when it spends a pool point means you're screwed.

As far as killing a normal dragon, it can theoretically be done with a liberal application of firepower, as long as the GM plays it like a tactical moron, which he shouldn't. Dragons are smart, and that's the key thing I see most GM's screw up when playing a dragon, they give them human intelligence.

[hermit]

[hahnsoo]

And maybe, just maybe, they have Divination powers to forecast the danger. A Great dragon should not be taken down under normal circumstances by a PC runner group. If it was overwhelmed by bug spirits or attacked by horrors or involved in a battle with another Dragon, it would be another matter, but that would be highly unlikely.

[torzzzzz]

so the overall opinnion is to run away or talk my way out of it if i meet one?

torz x

[Austere Emancipa...]

hermit: you're mixing up Racial Modified Limits and Racial Maximums. Also, the max attribute rating for an unmodified human is 11: 6 + 1 (Exceptional Attribute Edge) x 1.5 rounded up.

Still, I totally agree that Great Dragons should be really really smart and really really tough.

[hermit]

The options are as follows:

1. Meeting a common/lower form dragon: It'll be tough, but provided you're many, have lots of anti-vehicle and anti-air weapons, some competent mages and no fear of death, at least half of the group will live to reap the enormous money that can be made selling a dead dragon's body.

2. Meeting a Great: Pray it will let you live, and if not, pray it kills you quickly.

Edit: @AE Yeah, I didn't take Edges and overpowered attributes into account. Okay, but I also misremembered the new rules for greats. The DotSW book gives them a +5 on intelligence, for a total of 13. That still would make a Great significantly (as in, genius versus moderately gifted individual) smarter than the most intelligent possible human ever.