Ok Just herd a rumor about the fact that we may be comeing up agaist a dragon, short of running away and haveing nothing to do with it........ Any of you vet's out there know how to deal with a dragon......... i dont want to end up toasty!!!
torz x
Full Version: Dragons
Ok Just herd a rumor about the fact that we may be comeing up agaist a dragon, short of running away and haveing nothing to do with it........ Any of you vet's out there know how to deal with a dragon......... i dont want to end up toasty!!!
torz x
Arrange prostitute for GM, watch inconvenient dragon die to orbital cows...
On a less meta-gaming scale, any real ATGM should be able to kill a dragon just fine, assuming you can get a hit. IF the missile is not stopped my magic the dragon at least has a big hole in it. Anti-vehicular lasers and cannon should also work fine, though they are probably harder to get.
On a less meta-gaming scale, any real ATGM should be able to kill a dragon just fine, assuming you can get a hit. IF the missile is not stopped my magic the dragon at least has a big hole in it. Anti-vehicular lasers and cannon should also work fine, though they are probably harder to get.
Yeah. Heavy weapons w/ armor piercing goodness (EX if you can't afford the good stuff), explosives, that sort of thing. It all just comes down to the Dragon, unfortunately, and how you're going to be fighting it.
A troll with a dikoted claymore might work, in a pinch.
A troll with a dikoted claymore might work, in a pinch.
How to deal with a dragon? Depends on the dragon really.
A Great from - haha, forget it. Just ... forget it. you'd not only be up to a creature with in effetcive fighting power like two or three Behemoths, and a highly intelligent one at that, no, you'd also have to face down a creature that can cast any spell, at any froce, with any number of successes, without even rolling! Plus, at least in the Earthdawn rules, Greats could make use of THEIR Karma pool to make YOU roll again, DISCARDING SUCCESSES THAT WAY. Talk about a nigh unbeatable enemy.
If faced with a Great, try to talk your way out. Suck up to it, beg for your life, anything. It's the only chance you have.
A common form: Harsh, but not impossible. You'll need a rigger (or better two) with a couple fo decent combat drones (Ares Guardian and Steel Lynx), at least three of them equipped with Vogeljäger SAMs or something similar, and the rest armed with autocannons or at the very least HMGs. Also, you'll need at least two initiated mages capable of delivering force 7 or higher combat spells. Make good use of spirits too, because banning them does cause the Dragon actions, and high-level Watcher Spirits can cause massive damage in astral combat. Take care that the dragon doesn't command them though! Also, any number of high-body combat characters (Orcs and Trolls, or humans and Elves with exagerated attributes; Dwarves might work too) will come in handy. Armour spells at high force are a must for these. A spirit to disguise the drones is also a really good idea.
And lastly, dictate the rules of engagement to the dragon, if at all possible. Use the surroundings against it. A classic is a couple of suicide bomber drones (small skimmers or crawlers packed with C-12) used against a dragon in closed spaces (like a cave) to max out gdamage using reflection.
It can be done,. but is highly difficult, especially if the GM is mean and as the dragon atack you in the open (a correctly played dragon can devastate almost anything in the open). Hence, avoid such encounters, if at all possible.
If fighting, expect to lose a couple of party members. Also, have a decent healing mage at the ready to deal with the survivors, who will most likely be wounded. Attack the dragon with coordinated missile rows, that decreases the chance of it intercepting the missiles. Use Karma pool, maybe even burn all of it in the process to buy successes where nescessary. Dragons can take damage phenomenally and have insane numbers of pool dice.
Lastly, running from a dragon is possibly the most sensible way to survive such a fight.
If you face one, good luck, and if you survive, tell us how!
A Great from - haha, forget it. Just ... forget it. you'd not only be up to a creature with in effetcive fighting power like two or three Behemoths, and a highly intelligent one at that, no, you'd also have to face down a creature that can cast any spell, at any froce, with any number of successes, without even rolling! Plus, at least in the Earthdawn rules, Greats could make use of THEIR Karma pool to make YOU roll again, DISCARDING SUCCESSES THAT WAY. Talk about a nigh unbeatable enemy.
If faced with a Great, try to talk your way out. Suck up to it, beg for your life, anything. It's the only chance you have.
A common form: Harsh, but not impossible. You'll need a rigger (or better two) with a couple fo decent combat drones (Ares Guardian and Steel Lynx), at least three of them equipped with Vogeljäger SAMs or something similar, and the rest armed with autocannons or at the very least HMGs. Also, you'll need at least two initiated mages capable of delivering force 7 or higher combat spells. Make good use of spirits too, because banning them does cause the Dragon actions, and high-level Watcher Spirits can cause massive damage in astral combat. Take care that the dragon doesn't command them though! Also, any number of high-body combat characters (Orcs and Trolls, or humans and Elves with exagerated attributes; Dwarves might work too) will come in handy. Armour spells at high force are a must for these. A spirit to disguise the drones is also a really good idea.
And lastly, dictate the rules of engagement to the dragon, if at all possible. Use the surroundings against it. A classic is a couple of suicide bomber drones (small skimmers or crawlers packed with C-12) used against a dragon in closed spaces (like a cave) to max out gdamage using reflection.
It can be done,. but is highly difficult, especially if the GM is mean and as the dragon atack you in the open (a correctly played dragon can devastate almost anything in the open). Hence, avoid such encounters, if at all possible.
If fighting, expect to lose a couple of party members. Also, have a decent healing mage at the ready to deal with the survivors, who will most likely be wounded. Attack the dragon with coordinated missile rows, that decreases the chance of it intercepting the missiles. Use Karma pool, maybe even burn all of it in the process to buy successes where nescessary. Dragons can take damage phenomenally and have insane numbers of pool dice.
Lastly, running from a dragon is possibly the most sensible way to survive such a fight.
If you face one, good luck, and if you survive, tell us how!
Call the United Talismongers Association and tell 'em you've got telesma on the hoof. They can keep what they fry.
hmm, i belive i spotted a image over on elfwood about some people running from a pissed of dragon. one of the best images i have seen 
tac nukes never fail in my view, but that may not exist in a runners toolkit.
tac nukes never fail in my view, but that may not exist in a runners toolkit.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| If you face one, good luck, and if you survive, tell us how! |
thanks Hermit, i will try, the distinct lack of rigers worries me!
But what can you do short of hijacking someone off the street and making them create a rigger charater, mmm hold that thoght i might have someone in mind!!
torz x
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| Arrange prostitute for GM, watch inconvenient dragon die to orbital cows... |
... that just might work!
If 'Bottled Demon" taught me anything, it was that the best way to fight a dragon is to have a (great) dragon backing you up.
If the dragon isn't a great, perhaps a Rating 10 Background count would give him some headaches.
How to kill a great form dragon
Well our group did it once but it cost us ungodly amounts of money and required the setup from BFE. We arranged a meet with the dragon and attempted to appease it with services, favors and such. This worked well for three missions so he got just a little cocky, he agreed to pick up our latest acquisition himself (and 20 guards), Now the Dragon thought it was a trap and boy was he right. Four of our contacts were using Walther Sniper rifles with APDS ammo. Balrog and Whisperdeath started unloading dikoted arrows from maxed out Ranger Compound Bows. Our two shamans and one mage were using magic to sheild us. ShadowJack and Stealmachine were each using gyro stabilized StonerAres HMG with EXEx. Quickdraw had a Missile luancher loaded with 2 AVM's and 2 ASAM's. Finally, The Terror was trying out out little invention called sprawl shot. (monowire jungleshot)
Well our group did it once but it cost us ungodly amounts of money and required the setup from BFE. We arranged a meet with the dragon and attempted to appease it with services, favors and such. This worked well for three missions so he got just a little cocky, he agreed to pick up our latest acquisition himself (and 20 guards), Now the Dragon thought it was a trap and boy was he right. Four of our contacts were using Walther Sniper rifles with APDS ammo. Balrog and Whisperdeath started unloading dikoted arrows from maxed out Ranger Compound Bows. Our two shamans and one mage were using magic to sheild us. ShadowJack and Stealmachine were each using gyro stabilized StonerAres HMG with EXEx. Quickdraw had a Missile luancher loaded with 2 AVM's and 2 ASAM's. Finally, The Terror was trying out out little invention called sprawl shot. (monowire jungleshot)
The great dragons. Run, hide, negotiate, plead, fire small arms and hope it is amused.
We met a lesser dragon once and it came to a confrontation. 2 bursts from a SA shotgun and it was down for the count. A third would be necessary to ensure nobody can save it. It helped that it wasted its first action trying to intimidate us.
There presumably is some middle ground between these extremes but as with any fight in shadow run, if you let it degenerate into a shooting mach you will not be happy at the end, even if you win. Wen facing the dragon if you decide to kill it I suggest burning all the combat pool (spell pool, control pool as appropriate) and a couple of karma pool rerolls you have in your first action fire the best weapons you have available and don’t bother with anything that’s going to take more than 1 combat turn to get going by the time the drones arrive from 2 blocks away something’s going to be dead.
Edward
We met a lesser dragon once and it came to a confrontation. 2 bursts from a SA shotgun and it was down for the count. A third would be necessary to ensure nobody can save it. It helped that it wasted its first action trying to intimidate us.
There presumably is some middle ground between these extremes but as with any fight in shadow run, if you let it degenerate into a shooting mach you will not be happy at the end, even if you win. Wen facing the dragon if you decide to kill it I suggest burning all the combat pool (spell pool, control pool as appropriate) and a couple of karma pool rerolls you have in your first action fire the best weapons you have available and don’t bother with anything that’s going to take more than 1 combat turn to get going by the time the drones arrive from 2 blocks away something’s going to be dead.
Edward
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| [...]Plus, at least in the Earthdawn rules, Greats could make use of THEIR Karma pool to make YOU roll again, DISCARDING SUCCESSES THAT WAY. Talk about a nigh unbeatable enemy. [...] |
Yup. They still can. (Dragons of the Sixth World)
| QUOTE (tanka) | ||
Yup. They still can. (Dragons of the Sixth World) |
At least you can your own karma pool to counter the effect, though. It's not much, but it's better than nothing. In Dot6W, they mentioned one corp almost killed Alamais with a hit from an orbital laser. Have a red hot decker? With a little support, maybe that trick could actually finish a great dragon off.
| QUOTE (Endgame50) | ||||
At least you can your own karma pool to counter the effect, though. It's not much, but it's better than nothing. In Dot6W, they mentioned one corp almost killed Alamais with a hit from an orbital laser. Have a red hot decker? With a little support, maybe that trick could actually finish a great dragon off. |
Y'see, that's where part 2 of 3 of "Twist Fate" comes in.
They can spend a point of Karma Pool (and oh do they ever have KP) to cancel one point of Karma Pool spent by a character (PC/NPC) in LOS.
Ugly, innit?
Yeah. Ultimately, I wouldn't even want to try to take on a Great Dragon unless I was in an insanely powered game with hundreds or even thousands of karma... and even then I'd probably just figure out what the conflict with the wizworm was, and give it what it wanted.
... and the worst part about a Great is, it can conjure a Level 30 Armour spell on itself, just like that, without much of a roll, and then laugh at you and your dikote'd arrows and HMG EXEX rounds and monowire nets (it could also cast a Level 20 Flame Aura on itself on top of the Armour, burning the Monowire nets).
Greats are physically powerful, but, as DotSW says, are evenly matched with a squad of modern fighter planes or MBTs. It's their insane magic (and infinite KP) that makes them nigh invincible. Add to that some ten Great Form spirits and maybe a dozen high-cybered Minions or paracritters, and ... well ... was nice knowin' ya, chummer. I'll put soem flowers onto the little pile of ash (or dragon shit) that was you, once.
Lorthazar, you were lucky the GM did not play out the Great in the way it should have been played. It's not just the attributes, it's the magic that makes these creatures so powerful.
Their only weak spot may well be Orbital weapons, as they are outside the manasphere, and Dragons, as intensely magical beings, cannot affect anything outside the Earth's magical field. High-flying bombers, Thor projwectiles, possibly (though these, traveling well below light speed, might even be dodged by a Great), and orbital lasers and plasma weapons might be the only thing - save for startegic nukes - to kill a Great for good.
I wonder if that's the reason why Loffy is so involved with aviation and space-faring technology ... if he gains space superiority, he has that covered. And can boss around the other Greats ... hmmmmmmm ...
Greats are physically powerful, but, as DotSW says, are evenly matched with a squad of modern fighter planes or MBTs. It's their insane magic (and infinite KP) that makes them nigh invincible. Add to that some ten Great Form spirits and maybe a dozen high-cybered Minions or paracritters, and ... well ... was nice knowin' ya, chummer. I'll put soem flowers onto the little pile of ash (or dragon shit) that was you, once.
Lorthazar, you were lucky the GM did not play out the Great in the way it should have been played. It's not just the attributes, it's the magic that makes these creatures so powerful.
Their only weak spot may well be Orbital weapons, as they are outside the manasphere, and Dragons, as intensely magical beings, cannot affect anything outside the Earth's magical field. High-flying bombers, Thor projwectiles, possibly (though these, traveling well below light speed, might even be dodged by a Great), and orbital lasers and plasma weapons might be the only thing - save for startegic nukes - to kill a Great for good.
I wonder if that's the reason why Loffy is so involved with aviation and space-faring technology ... if he gains space superiority, he has that covered. And can boss around the other Greats ... hmmmmmmm ...
As to the "nigh-infinite" KP, wrong.
Average dragon: 10-20 KP
Average Great: 50+
If a team of runners with enough KP (say 40 each, six runners) goes in, the GD will run out of KP pretty quick.
Not to mention anybody out of LOS won't have to worry about their KP being negated.
Average dragon: 10-20 KP
Average Great: 50+
If a team of runners with enough KP (say 40 each, six runners) goes in, the GD will run out of KP pretty quick.
Not to mention anybody out of LOS won't have to worry about their KP being negated.
The + on the 50+ is the clencher as far as greats goes.
And Lorthazar, had your GM played the dragon half decent all that you threw at it would not have even been able to penetrate it's skin plus it's armor spell. It knew there was an ambush. It could have channeled a force 12 great form spirit, then been totally immune to any weapon with a base power of less than 24. That's not even counting an actual quickened or anchored armor or barrier spells.
That and the fact that (iirc) it can make you reroll all your sucesses when it spends a pool point means you're screwed.
As far as killing a normal dragon, it can theoretically be done with a liberal application of firepower, as long as the GM plays it like a tactical moron, which he shouldn't. Dragons are smart, and that's the key thing I see most GM's screw up when playing a dragon, they give them human intelligence.
And Lorthazar, had your GM played the dragon half decent all that you threw at it would not have even been able to penetrate it's skin plus it's armor spell. It knew there was an ambush. It could have channeled a force 12 great form spirit, then been totally immune to any weapon with a base power of less than 24. That's not even counting an actual quickened or anchored armor or barrier spells.
That and the fact that (iirc) it can make you reroll all your sucesses when it spends a pool point means you're screwed.
As far as killing a normal dragon, it can theoretically be done with a liberal application of firepower, as long as the GM plays it like a tactical moron, which he shouldn't. Dragons are smart, and that's the key thing I see most GM's screw up when playing a dragon, they give them human intelligence.
| QUOTE |
| As to the "nigh-infinite" KP, wrong. (..) Average Great: 50+ |
Okay. Just so we get this straight: 50+ means "A number that equals or is greater than 50". That could be 50, 51, 500, 50000000000000000000000000000000000000, whatever the GM sees fit. In other words, unlimited KP dice as far as game mechanics are concerned.
Where, precisely, was I wrong?
Also, dragons indeed are damned smart in shadowrun. A lower form dragon has a base intelligence of 8, which means they're 2 points above the normal racial maximum for the smarter humanoid races. They're *TWICE* as smart as the smartest possible Troll! they relate to a genius like a genius (Int 6) relates to a slightly above average person (Int 4).
A Great has significantly HIGHER intelligence. The 2.0 BBB put it at 12. That makes the average Great TWICE as smart as the smartest possible human!
This is hard to play out, I admit that. I'd guess this superior intellect means the Dragon is always a few steps ahead of the players. Whatever ideas they have, the Dragon has thought of thse. The only way to cross such a beast is to act on the base of information it cannot have. Now, in your case, Lorthazar, the Dragon knew what you guys knew. It would very likely have anticipated an assault on it - you said yourself, the big bad lizard was suspecting something like this.
I wonder why it even bothered to come, really. It could just have sent an emissary and grounded something like a force 40 Hellfire on that emissary using rital magic, and bang, no more runners. Then, it could ahve observed the battlefield from above, hidden with something like a Lv. 20 enhanced invisibility, used it's extra keen eyesight (enhanced senses) to see whether any of you managed to flee, and bombard you with Lv. 30 Manaballs or something similar. Or play a bit and use elemental magic to make your life hell.
Greats don't need to make spellcasting tests, remember.
Bottom line: Your GM was far too generous. In fact, even the attributes Greats have are up to speculation. They could use any kind of spell to enhance them, or their initiative, in the blink of an eye. They relate to players in SR like Elder Gods relate to players in CoC.
Something you just hope never to meet in person.
And maybe, just maybe, they have Divination powers to forecast the danger. A Great dragon should not be taken down under normal circumstances by a PC runner group. If it was overwhelmed by bug spirits or attacked by horrors or involved in a battle with another Dragon, it would be another matter, but that would be highly unlikely.
so the overall opinnion is to run away or talk my way out of it if i meet one?
torz x
torz x
hermit: you're mixing up Racial Modified Limits and Racial Maximums. Also, the max attribute rating for an unmodified human is 11: 6 + 1 (Exceptional Attribute Edge) x 1.5 rounded up.
Still, I totally agree that Great Dragons should be really really smart and really really tough.
Still, I totally agree that Great Dragons should be really really smart and really really tough.
The options are as follows:
1. Meeting a common/lower form dragon: It'll be tough, but provided you're many, have lots of anti-vehicle and anti-air weapons, some competent mages and no fear of death, at least half of the group will live to reap the enormous money that can be made selling a dead dragon's body.
2. Meeting a Great: Pray it will let you live, and if not, pray it kills you quickly.
Edit: @AE Yeah, I didn't take Edges and overpowered attributes into account. Okay, but I also misremembered the new rules for greats. The DotSW book gives them a +5 on intelligence, for a total of 13. That still would make a Great significantly (as in, genius versus moderately gifted individual) smarter than the most intelligent possible human ever.
1. Meeting a common/lower form dragon: It'll be tough, but provided you're many, have lots of anti-vehicle and anti-air weapons, some competent mages and no fear of death, at least half of the group will live to reap the enormous money that can be made selling a dead dragon's body.
2. Meeting a Great: Pray it will let you live, and if not, pray it kills you quickly.
Edit: @AE Yeah, I didn't take Edges and overpowered attributes into account. Okay, but I also misremembered the new rules for greats. The DotSW book gives them a +5 on intelligence, for a total of 13. That still would make a Great significantly (as in, genius versus moderately gifted individual) smarter than the most intelligent possible human ever.
hermit: You realize that, even Greats that have been around since the 4th World and prior, probably won't have KP of more than, say, 200. That's at least 7,850 karma. Yes, Greats have been around a long, long time. Doesn't mean they spent all that time accumulating karma.
Yes, they're strong. Yes, they're more magically capable than anybody we know of (save for IEs, but they're right up there with GDs). Doesn't mean that they are the deities of our world and can think us out of existance.
And, you know, they still need to make those spellcasting tests, otherwise the GM is just playing up the "überosity" of GDs and making them out to be more than they are.
A general rule: If it's statless (i.e. Harlequin), then it can do whatever whenever. If it has stats (i.e. a GD) then it must follow the same rules that a PC must.
Yes, they're strong. Yes, they're more magically capable than anybody we know of (save for IEs, but they're right up there with GDs). Doesn't mean that they are the deities of our world and can think us out of existance.
And, you know, they still need to make those spellcasting tests, otherwise the GM is just playing up the "überosity" of GDs and making them out to be more than they are.
A general rule: If it's statless (i.e. Harlequin), then it can do whatever whenever. If it has stats (i.e. a GD) then it must follow the same rules that a PC must.
i personally count the named GDs as being statsless, same as the IEs. after all, it never gives Lofwyr's stats, just the stats for an average GD.
Weren't those stats redefined as minimums somewhere?
The 20 freaking points of hardened armor built into their butts on greats doensn't make anyone's day either.
I wonder if one can stack Innate Spells, and thus cast several Flamethrow spells with the same action...
Note also that Detect Enemies Extended in the hands of a dragon is fearsome. Even with a Magic of only 10 and a Force of 10 is a kilometer in every direction.
Note also that Detect Enemies Extended in the hands of a dragon is fearsome. Even with a Magic of only 10 and a Force of 10 is a kilometer in every direction.
heh. don't see why you couldn't. higher TN, but the real bitch of casting multiple spells is the increased drain--which dragons don't have to deal with.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| heh. don't see why you couldn't. higher TN, but the real bitch of casting multiple spells is the increased drain--which dragons don't have to deal with. |
Exactly. Now I wonder if Enhanced Aim works with Elemental Manipulations...
Some Greats, like dunkie, Loffy, and possibly the Queen of Oranges are more than 50.000 years old, dating back to the age of Dragons, the "2nd World". That's a wee bit more than 7850 Karma. The 5^30 was a wee bit exaggerated, I admit, but even 200 Karma (or, as I would handle it, 500 for a named Great) can really ruin anyone's day. A Great can roll its own rolls again too, you know. It can even burn some to get itself some successes ... in case he really needs to.
Bottom line: don't engage a Great unless you control a medium-sized army and some orbital weapons platforms. Just ... don't.
Beside, they're supposed to be as powerful, if not MORE powerful, than Harley and his fellow IEs. So ...
Bottom line: don't engage a Great unless you control a medium-sized army and some orbital weapons platforms. Just ... don't.
Beside, they're supposed to be as powerful, if not MORE powerful, than Harley and his fellow IEs. So ...
There is one realistic way to kill a Great Dragon, but that involves having a bigger Great Dragon around to help you.
My group actually did this, with one Runner helping to decide the victory (which he could only do because by the time he had gotten to the fight, the two Greats had been beating each other around for about two hours and had wasted all their karma pool on it, leaving nothing to screw the runner over with). Even so, the runner in question was about two seconds away from a messy death.
Going up against a Great without another Great to back you up, or at least five non-greats (at least, in my opinion it'd take that many), is just not going to work. It's GM decision on the Karma pool of GD's and the book says that it should be AT LEAST twice the average of the team. You only have to have a Dragon screw with a player's Karma pool once or twice before they start to get a little gunshy about it.
My group actually did this, with one Runner helping to decide the victory (which he could only do because by the time he had gotten to the fight, the two Greats had been beating each other around for about two hours and had wasted all their karma pool on it, leaving nothing to screw the runner over with). Even so, the runner in question was about two seconds away from a messy death.
Going up against a Great without another Great to back you up, or at least five non-greats (at least, in my opinion it'd take that many), is just not going to work. It's GM decision on the Karma pool of GD's and the book says that it should be AT LEAST twice the average of the team. You only have to have a Dragon screw with a player's Karma pool once or twice before they start to get a little gunshy about it.
| QUOTE (Sharaloth @ Mar 2 2005, 03:40 PM) |
| My group actually did this, with one Runner helping to decide the victory (which he could only do because by the time he had gotten to the fight, the two Greats had been beating each other around for about two hours and had wasted all their combat pool on it, leaving nothing to screw the runner over with). Even so, the runner in question was about two seconds away from a messy death. |
Optimistic.. I thought it was closer to 1-2 blinks, and the time spent in the actual dying process.. although that would have taken a while, unless said Great decided to speed it up because of the annoyance factor.
Hmm.. and isn't being turned into a metal/flesh-sicle a fairly 'clean' death? I mean... it's not like being picked up and pulled apart limb by limb..
I dunno, once the dead frozen runner melts it'll be pretty messy.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Some Greats, like dunkie, Loffy, and possibly the Queen of Oranges are more than 50.000 years old, dating back to the age of Dragons, the "2nd World". That's a wee bit more than 7850 Karma. The 5^30 was a wee bit exaggerated, I admit, but even 200 Karma (or, as I would handle it, 500 for a named Great) can really ruin anyone's day. A Great can roll its own rolls again too, you know. It can even burn some to get itself some successes ... in case he really needs to. Bottom line: don't engage a Great unless you control a medium-sized army and some orbital weapons platforms. Just ... don't. Beside, they're supposed to be as powerful, if not MORE powerful, than Harley and his fellow IEs. So ... |
Have the dragons been awake those 50,000+ years? Nope.
In fact, they'd been sleeping until 2011.
It takes more than a few thousand total years of being awake to accumlate over 10,000 karma. Remember, they don't start Great, they have to earn the title.
All [those Greats] have to do is earn 1 Karma a year for every year they were awake to earn 10,000 Karma points.
| QUOTE (torzzzzz) |
| so the overall opinnion is to run away or talk my way out of it if i meet one? torz x |
And if those two things do not seem to be working..As I recall you are playing a hot elf chick,yes? You could do whatevery hot elf chick can do... Drop your pants,turn around and bend over..You never know that dragon just may have a good thing for elves. Yes, I know I am a dirty old man. But at least I am only joking, or am I?
This arguement again?
IMO, if the PCs can take a Great Dragon in a stand up fight, and the campaign does not have them playing immortal something or others who are drinking buddies with Harlequin, and proofread for Ehran, than the GM is doing something wrong.
A regular dragon can be taken in a stand up fight, but it's going to require the baddest of the bad assed gear, and still going to be touch and go.
IMO, if the PCs can take a Great Dragon in a stand up fight, and the campaign does not have them playing immortal something or others who are drinking buddies with Harlequin, and proofread for Ehran, than the GM is doing something wrong.
A regular dragon can be taken in a stand up fight, but it's going to require the baddest of the bad assed gear, and still going to be touch and go.
depends on what level of GD you're talking about. if they're taking on Lofwyr or Mujaji or any of the other named, known GDs? yeah, that's pretty high up on the power scale (heh). if they're taking on lesser-known GDs that use the book stats... well, they're still pretty tough, but not to the same degree.
about the karma. first, as kagetenshi said, they'd only have had to earn 1 karma per year they were awake in order to hit (or exceed) that 10k karma. second, dragons--great and otherwise--seem to have adapted to their new environs pretty damn quickly. it wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that they were all on extended astral quests the whole time, basically just bumping around the metaplanes doing whatever it is that dragons do. and, of course, gaining karma for doing it.
about the karma. first, as kagetenshi said, they'd only have had to earn 1 karma per year they were awake in order to hit (or exceed) that 10k karma. second, dragons--great and otherwise--seem to have adapted to their new environs pretty damn quickly. it wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that they were all on extended astral quests the whole time, basically just bumping around the metaplanes doing whatever it is that dragons do. and, of course, gaining karma for doing it.
I totally agree that any of the GD should be unkillable in any sanely powered campaign. But back in ED times, didn't Ghostwalker's mate get offed by the Therans with one of their flying ships or whatever? How badass does that make those things then? Granted, she probably had about 5 or 10,000 years less karma in her (esp. than Ghostwalker who was definatly awake and on an extended astral quest during the downtime) but still - a they'd have to be a lot LOT more powerful than anything we have around now. The orbital laser didn't kill Alamaise, after all... Freaky. 
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Have the dragons been awake those 50,000+ years? Nope. In fact, they'd been sleeping until 2011. It takes more than a few thousand total years of being awake to accumlate over 10,000 karma. Remember, they don't start Great, they have to earn the title. |
Who's to say that those Great Dragons weren't earning Karma while taking little Astral junkets during the downcycle?
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Now I wonder if Enhanced Aim works with Elemental Manipulations... |
Why wouldn't it? Elemental Manipulations use the rules for Ranged Combat, after all.
| QUOTE (Prospero) |
| I totally agree that any of the GD should be unkillable in any sanely powered campaign. But back in ED times, didn't Ghostwalker's mate get offed by the Therans with one of their flying ships or whatever? How badass does that make those things then? Granted, she probably had about 5 or 10,000 years less karma in her (esp. than Ghostwalker who was definatly awake and on an extended astral quest during the downtime) but still - a they'd have to be a lot LOT more powerful than anything we have around now. The orbital laser didn't kill Alamaise, after all... Freaky. |
It did really messed him up. But really who is to say that he could live threw a few ICBMs?
So Alamais gets hit with an orbital laser in "Knight's Pawn". I was always unclear as to the aftermath of that event. Did he slump over? Did he fly off? How did Priest live through it?
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| If the dragon isn't a great, perhaps a Rating 10 Background count would give him some headaches. |
Even if the Dragon is a Great a rating 10 background count will kill it. Dragons have only one real weakness, they are Dual Natured and they are just as vulnerable to astral pollution as any other Dual Natured being, probably more so than most. During the ED era Dragons stoped using their natural magic abilities and instead relied on techniques pioneered by metahumans for fear of recieving a Horror Mark.
A GD would certainly be able to adapt to a high background count but would still be severly hindered by it. A full mana warp, on the other hand I doubt any DRagon could survive one.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||
Even if the Dragon is a Great a rating 10 background count will kill it. Dragons have only one real weakness, they are Dual Natured and they are just as vulnerable to astral pollution as any other Dual Natured being, probably more so than most. During the ED era Dragons stoped using their natural magic abilities and instead relied on techniques pioneered by metahumans for fear of recieving a Horror Mark. A GD would certainly be able to adapt to a high background count but would still be severly hindered by it. A full mana warp, on the other hand I doubt any DRagon could survive one. |
Who's to say that some Great Dragons haven't developed some form of shielding versus the effects of Mana Warps by meta-magically reducing their level of astral activeness?
Not sure if it worked this way, but I seem to remember something about being astrally active making anyone in Earthdawn a target for Horror Marking, not just casting raw magic. If so, wouldn't the Great Dragons have had to develop something to save thier dual-natured hides? You could always chalk the bit about them using meta-human techniques up to them still being vulnerable to Horror Marking on account of being dual-natured, but at least not acting like a signal flare by casting raw magic.
I am not quite up on Earthdawn lore, so could somebody offer some elaboration and/or tell me if I'm smoking tainted crack?
14D isn't unsoakable by a GD, you know. Until they errata or FAQ it, a Virtuso adept can generate a Rating 10 background count.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Until they errata or FAQ it, a Virtuso adept can generate a Rating 10 background count. |
This definitely needs to be fixed in the Errata.
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