And until they do, a Virtuso is your Dragon killing munchkin.

All GD's have access to Filtering, which I believe is pretty easy for them to pull off.

So, to the topic at hand, generally the two best options are:

Don't take the job. Just don't. Part of being a runner is knowing when to walk away or to give the nice dragon what it wants. Or not bothering it at all.

If it's a normal dragon, you have a chance...try and call in some of its other enemies and work a deal. Another dragon, another runner team, a corp, a GD, anything. Sink all your nuyen into gear if you are sure at some point you must take it on; the only gear you need after you're dead is a coffin. Or a small breadbox. This is a dragon, after all.

If it's a Great, you're done. There is a small, small chance that it might think you're frisky and keep you around for its own nefarious ends. Unlikely, though.

And remember the main problem with killing a dragon, no matter how good your logistics are. You get a lot of attention. From other dragons.

Unless it is a toxic dragon. Arleesh could call in runners to take the sick dragon down.

That falls under the, "calling in its other enemies" category, methinks.

And for normal dragons, when a runner team takes down a dragon by itself, it's an assasination. When a dragon hires a team to take down a dragon, it's 'internal dragon politics.'

Is "Bottled Demon" one of the books that's already goten the PDF treatment? I'd say the conclusion to that could be quite enlightening for anyone who wants to ponder the details of engaging a (non great) dragon in fairly close combat.

Looking at the original post, Torzzz says they may be just going against a Dragon, not a Great Dragon. BIG difference. At least I hope so for Torzzz's sake.

Good call, T.

Ah the great "They can be killed!" - "No they can't!" debate again...

Also, back then dragons were a LOT wussier in previous editions. Karma pool access is god.

Well I think I see what the purpose was of Synner's How To Kill a Dragon thread from about a year before Dot6W.

[edit] Do believe I'm going to look for the promised credit, or at least a thank you, or note for inspiration. [/edit]

PS [edit] Never mind, I didn't see my lame ideas countered. [/edit]

Sorry Synner, from some of the silly dragon defenses that were mentioned, I was led to believe dragons no longer needed to worry about drain.

Silly How? Like casting a Force 30 armor spell then having to resist 17M physical drain with about 25 dice. I just tried, took me 4 rolls to get 1 success, YMMV.

Or the stacking innate spells like flame projection. That is covered in SR3 and does incur drain.

Twist fat can be countered automatically by the PC spending a point of karma and NOT having to reroll successes. That use of twist fate also takes a Simple Action on the part of the Dragon, which seems to imply they need a held action? They cannot negate bought successes through Twist Fate. They can spend a point point of karma to prevent anyone spending a point of karma.

Sounds pointless to try when people say they have 50-50000000000000000000 karma pool. However, some people apparently can not read. An adult dragon can be expected to have a karma pool of 10-20 points. A great dragon may have a karma pool of 50 points or more. A little different than 50+ but maybe not too different. Usually when I hear the same type claim it is something like make $25,000 or more. I always figure if you regularly could make more than $25,000 they would probably inflate their claim. Usually you would be lucky to make anywhere near $25,000. So if your GM is using numbers more than twice those stated, they are probably the type of GM that drops cows from space. YMMV.

Quit reading the thread at that point.

Something I did search for in Dot6W was any info on treating their body or armor as chemically sealed or impervious to DMSO. Did not see anything that suggested it is. If anyone can find a page, I would be interested. I admit I did not read every page of the book, but did look under powers, physiology and biology. I will thus assume hitting them with hyper and pepper punch may have some effect. Dragons have high magic ratings and are still subject to magic loss, though they get to roll 3 dice, so give them something to think about by hitting them with Stim Patches.

In the same vein as the chemical attacks to increase TNs, use spirits to use confusion power on the dragon and its spirits. It doesn't matter too much if they wander around mindlessly but it will help to raise all their TNs. Hopefully you have a shaman or two. If you have a hermetic, have the elementals gang up on a dragon's spirit and get the friends in melee bonus. Let the dragon take the time to command his spirits to offer some friends in melee assistance.

Everyone will want to say but the dragon can banish them or the dragon can command his spirits to.... That is all good and fine. That is great actually. Banishing and Controlling are exclusive complex actions, meaning no sustained spells, no ordering spirits, no actively killing you. Calling an elemental is an exclusive complex action. Commanding his spirits is a simple action for each command.

Remember that dragons do not get infinite actions, nor have infinite spell pool. Hopefully, you'll think I'm nuts, they will have some high force anchored armor spells for every conceivable type of attack. Trip them all and have the dragon resist drain on every one of them before his spell pool refreshes. You knoe that pool that he no doubt has allocated for shielding, reflecting, and spell defense. Let him kill himself with drain.

And Caltrops, dikoted caltrops. About a thousand nuyen worth. Oh yeah and slip spray.

And we're also talking about a different level of magic in the world. But that's all beside the point.

Dont know if it is what you are looking for but there is a section in SR3 page 263 on dragon armor (Hardened) ?


torz x

On the whole DMSO thing:

1. Most toxins in SR are tailored fro humans, or at least, mammals. Especially hyper is too specific to be simply translatable to a creature that, in all likelyhood, has a metabolism (and neural system) unlike anything alive, between bird and lizard - most likely the closest thing to it would be a dinosaur. Thus, I would not count on Hyper working as it should according to the book.

2. Dragons can have - and often do have - a resistance, sometimes even an invulnerability, against poisons. There goes your DMSO plot. Plus, the dragon might have a detox spell it could cast on itself, too.

Not wanting to argue that Greats are invincible, but they're clearly waaaay beyond what a mere shadowrunner team can ever hope to face down.

Dragon armour counts as hardened armour for the sake of damage resistance and penetration with normal weapons. It isn't sealed, at least to my knowledge.

explain again why he'd need to worry about keeping his bound free spirits happy? i mean, the part where he's got their true name, and the part where he's been around for tens of millennia. "don't piss off the dragon" is just as true for spirits as it is for metahumans.

Of course, Ghostwalker is a special case... he is known as "Doll maker" and has a special relationship with Spirits of all kinds. It is quite possible that he has several free spirits who follow him willingly.

or that he's bound them to him through other means. deals, undiscovered metamagics, f12 Bind Spirt spell, whatever.

Remember, as stated elsewhere in canon, Dragons and Immortal Elves do not use magic like metahumans (and PC's) use magic. Theirs is different, and for it we have no rules. Limiting it in scope to PC rules is somewhat futile.

I think mfb's point, Tisoz -- maybe you missed it, what with being so busy saying he doesn't know how to read and all -- is that Ghostwalker doesn't fucking care if they're happy. He's got true names, he's got millenia of experience as the best summoner/conjurer ever, and as long as they do what he says he doesn't give two tugs if they're happy.

Just accept that Great Dragons can sometimes do shit a player character can't, and they can do it for more reasons than them having a really high number on a character sheet somewhere (as mentioned, the dice vs. TN thing just breaks down at certain points). They've never been balanced, they've never been meant to be balanced. Their power level just isn't capable of being covered by the same rules as everyone else. Dragons, maybe. Great Dragons? Nope.

Trying to apply the rules and logic of the basic rules set to plot devices like Great Dragons (accept it, that's what they are) just makes you look silly. They've set up certain creatures as forces of nature in the background of the setting, not as NPC's. You've just gotta get over that.

Besides, some of these Free Spirits might not even actually be bound, but might have some other reason for hanging out with Doll Maker, who has a totally unique way with, and understanding of Spirits. They may even do this of their own free will. These Spirits would not be restricted in their choice of actions whatsoever.

I agree with people when they're, y'know, right. Sorry if you think that means some sort of nefarious pattern is in the works, but if someone's saying something I agree with, I say so. If you bothered to notice when the opposite was true, beleive me, you'd notice that MFB and I butt heads as often as anyone else.

And your post had nothing to do with how "any PC" treats spirits, because everyone (even you, from the looks of your post) was talking about Ghostwalker. Not a PC. Not even an NPC. Remember we're not talking about something that should, or could, be statted (given how the fluff's treated him). We're not talking about "a" dragon, or even "a" great dragon. We're talking purely about a plot device. Like Dunkie, or God. Even Elminster has stats. Not so, the biggest players in Shadowrun. In point of fact, this whole little flame war waiting to happen is off topic, because the thread's supposed to be about tactics for fighting a basic dragon -- Ghostwalker being as far out of that power scale as he is a PC's. He's pure plot device. There's no point in numbers crunching a plot device, and claiming it has to worry about consequences.

Why? Because plot devices either have consequences, or don't. It all depends on what the writer, not the rules, wants to do at the time. A writer wanted a dragon to kick all Denver's ass, so it happened. The writer wanted the dragon to do so with lots of spirits, so it happened. Consquences are immaterial, because they were never explained to us.

We don't know how Ghostwalker got that many spirits on his side. We don't know what deals he made, what he gave them ahead of time, what he owed them later, what he had to give them later, what they did to him later, how much karma he had to sink into it, what ancient pacts came into play. We don't know what dice he rolled, what tricks he pulled, or what super-secret-never-seen-by-players "DRAGON ONLY" TN modifiers were applied...We don't know 'cause no one's told us, ever, how he really managed it. And no one's very likely to ever do so.

But we do know it was done without the same set of stats and possibilities available to "any PC," like you mentioned. Because -- like you showed -- what he did just can't be done with the same set of skills, powers, rules, and rolls, that are given to us in the rulebooks.

None of us are saying "ignore consequences," or (since you don't seem to like it if anyone agrees with anyone else in a debate) at least it's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying "ignore consequences." I'm saying "obviously Ghostwalker doesn't deal with the same consequences we do, in a way we can understand."

And as for being shocked at the developers overdoing it with Dragons...? Where have you been, since, like, Tolkien? Dragons have, in any and every fantasy setting (which Shadowrun partially is) long been touted as the be-all end-all of power scale. It's certainly nothing new, nor should it be anything surprising.

I'm not saying Dragons should be presented to us like this, only that they are, always have been, and very likely always will be. Just like Immortal Elves. And you can either shrug, not give a damn, and keep playing...or you can get all mad and uptight about it on the internet 'cause the numbers don't add up, and yell at people who call it silly. Just because some of us accept the power levels involved in Shadowrun doesn't mean we're "defending" them, by the way. Accuse someone else of furry dragon fantasies.

Back to my original question........ can you kill a dragon, or my new one, how do you survive?


Answeres on a post card please!

torz x

Well, it has been pretty much all said already. Buy the best gear available to you, all AV ammo and AV missiles, get yourself a very good merc mage, try to find allies in PCs (dragons do have lots of enemies, it comes with their charming way to treat everyone who's not a dragon as some kind of inferior hamster), try to either get at the dragon at a time when it's vulnerable (or lure it into an ambush; young and foolish dragons might even fall for this, underestimating what mortals with missiles can do) ...

And hope for the best. But, unless you GM is either really bad at GMing or wants to get back at all players for some reason, he won't force you into a fight with a dragon without a chance.

If you face the dragon without due gear, try to work out a deal. Offer hit the shiny gem thing you found in Australia, the odd golden plate you stole out of that Teocalli, or lifelong servitude to it, if you don't have anything better to offer. The dragon might well go in on that ... after all, SR dragons usually aren't THAT hell-bent on killing anything and anyone.

And there'll always be another time, when the odds are in your favour, and not in the dragon's.

I saw some bickering about Ghostwalker and spirits, but didn't see one imporetant detail brought up (not that I paid complete attention to some of the posts).
Spirits of any kind near Denver may depart to do something for the dragon without warning their conjuror. Whatever link Ghostwalker has to control spirits is stronger than any sort of standard conjuring. So far, it's up to the GM whether it's from a deep respect earned while he was in the metaplanes or from him binding entire metaplanar populations whole in servitude. Either way, it is something that is not covered as theoretically possible for humans or maybe even other dragons.

Tisoz. Look.

Most Greats have specialities. Celedyr can dive through the earth, just like that, like ti was water. Is there a spell to do that, for an extended time, without any withdrawal or TN mali for upkeep? Not that I knew of.

Hestaby has a whole herd of magically active, very powerful, deer-things under her control. Are there any rules how a PC can get such a pet? Not that I know of.

Ghostwalker is the master of Spirits, the greatest conjurer EVER. It is clearly stated in DotSW that he can conjure in a way metahumans just can't. Not even other Dragons or his fellow Greats can! He uses his own very special Ghostwalker magic to get his way with them. Means it's not covered by the standard rules. Got that?

Normal rules for PCs and metahuman NPCs (and lesser dragons) casting magic don't apply to Greats unless the GM makes a house rule saying so. That is what all the people here try to tell you, and what you refuse to acknowledge.

You're welcome to make yourself a house rule, and play an overpowered campaign revolving entirely on gun-toting PCs eradicating all thsoe pesky dragons if it makes you happy. Noone will stop you.

Just don't call the rest of us dumb if we don't do that. Or sore losers because we side with "them". And why is it "With me or against me" anyway? Don't you take this a wee bit too serious? It is a game, man!