I just wanted to add, I think that the point has been made by some really intelligent people.I think it was very intertaining to read even though certain arguments were remade,changed to suit,fuddeled some more and well after every possible combination he just dont get it.I am a player not a GM and I get it by what Ive read and Im thick as pig shit so I recon someones just being stubborn.
You can talk to a rock and ask it to move, but at the end of the day no matter what you have said, that rocks still going to be there.
point in fact.....dont talk to rocks
he knows who he is.
Full Version: Dragons
Hey, if it's so hard to see in this hypothetical brawl that's going on, and it's so important to use surprise and perception tests to do anything and see anything -- how's the rigger spot the dragon in the first place?
Between casting Improved Invisibility on itself and having a dozen or so spirits using Conceal on it, then glancing around (on the astral for life signs, while at the same time using a Detect Enemies on the physical to pinpoint locations), the dragon can systematically clear out it's surroundings without any of those weak meat-things getting a chance to attack it.
There. Scenario over. Dragon wins.
Wow, this is easy!
Between casting Improved Invisibility on itself and having a dozen or so spirits using Conceal on it, then glancing around (on the astral for life signs, while at the same time using a Detect Enemies on the physical to pinpoint locations), the dragon can systematically clear out it's surroundings without any of those weak meat-things getting a chance to attack it.
There. Scenario over. Dragon wins.
Wow, this is easy!
| QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2005, 06:58 PM) |
| So in your world a spirit sees in every direction at the same time? In mine they don't. If you are not looking in the right direction, or trying to look in every direction at once, you are going to be distracted from the one direction the thing is. No one could understand how a surprise situation could exist, so I somewhat made up for it in the distraction. |
What I don't understand is how do you determine which way the spirit is looking, so you know whether or not it's starting straight at it, or looking the wrong way, and is 'distracted.'
So, this point seems to have been done to death, and this thread seems to have left the scope of what was intended. However, having used GD as plot devises, or having been a PC dealing with GD, I feel compelled to say something. Then I'll go and hide. 
If PCs go up against a GD in combat, they will die. Period.
Ghostwalker took out a chunk of Denver, blasted the Azzy pyramid, and ripped up a huge blood spirit while being shot at with a pleathora of heavy weapons. While doing this, he summond hords of spirits to his aid. I may occasionally complain that my PC are too powerfull, however there is no way they have that kind of firepower, and even if they did, it would likely prove ineffective.
Icewing, I mean Ghostwalker, is not the only GD to take out a city. Aden's rampage through Tehran is one example. And then there is Amazonia....
Every time my players or myself(if I wasn't GMing) have delt with a GD, we have avoided combat. In the example Chibu gave, I was playing a Phonix shaman (pyro that is susspicious of azies...) When the guy in the white suit turned into GW, my shaman did two things. 1, showed all deference for ghostwalker and made it very clear that he adored and respected him. 2, he changed his shorts.
Anytime I put a GD in, it is as a plot device. If someone is dumb enough to attack, well, think of it the same as someone with an int of 1 and no demolitions skill trying to disarm a sub tactical nuke with 5 seconds left. You might get out alive, but you sure as drek ain't gonna succed in stopping it.
As to the point of a GM saying: It's Lofwyr. Roll initative. That's not good gaming on the GM's part, unless the players have done something majorly dumb. (see aformentioned example of walking into SK shouting "Lofwyr's a pansy!")
Think about it this way. A group, say 20 people, decide they are going to take on the UCAS military. Not peicemeal, as a whole. 20 people, against the UCAS standing army. All at once. Do you really need to give each soldier stats, skills and weapon and roll it to see what happens? No. The 20 guys loose. HARD. As well they should. Going up against a whole army, being that outnumbered, and that outgunned, they die. Just as the PCs would.
The problem with giving concreate stats to anything is it is then possible to kill.
IMHO, leave GDas plot devices. Some complex plan involving high explosives and magic could pull it off, however the level needed is well past what PCs should reasonably be able to pull of without MAJOR help. Like that of another GD.
/end rant
Just one runners opinion.
If PCs go up against a GD in combat, they will die. Period.
Ghostwalker took out a chunk of Denver, blasted the Azzy pyramid, and ripped up a huge blood spirit while being shot at with a pleathora of heavy weapons. While doing this, he summond hords of spirits to his aid. I may occasionally complain that my PC are too powerfull, however there is no way they have that kind of firepower, and even if they did, it would likely prove ineffective.
Icewing, I mean Ghostwalker
, is not the only GD to take out a city. Aden's rampage through Tehran is one example. And then there is Amazonia....Every time my players or myself(if I wasn't GMing) have delt with a GD, we have avoided combat. In the example Chibu gave, I was playing a Phonix shaman (pyro that is susspicious of azies...) When the guy in the white suit turned into GW, my shaman did two things. 1, showed all deference for ghostwalker and made it very clear that he adored and respected him. 2, he changed his shorts.
Anytime I put a GD in, it is as a plot device. If someone is dumb enough to attack, well, think of it the same as someone with an int of 1 and no demolitions skill trying to disarm a sub tactical nuke with 5 seconds left. You might get out alive, but you sure as drek ain't gonna succed in stopping it.
As to the point of a GM saying: It's Lofwyr. Roll initative. That's not good gaming on the GM's part, unless the players have done something majorly dumb. (see aformentioned example of walking into SK shouting "Lofwyr's a pansy!")
Think about it this way. A group, say 20 people, decide they are going to take on the UCAS military. Not peicemeal, as a whole. 20 people, against the UCAS standing army. All at once. Do you really need to give each soldier stats, skills and weapon and roll it to see what happens? No. The 20 guys loose. HARD. As well they should. Going up against a whole army, being that outnumbered, and that outgunned, they die. Just as the PCs would.
The problem with giving concreate stats to anything is it is then possible to kill.
IMHO, leave GDas plot devices. Some complex plan involving high explosives and magic could pull it off, however the level needed is well past what PCs should reasonably be able to pull of without MAJOR help. Like that of another GD.
/end rant
Just one runners opinion.
| QUOTE (Sandoval Smith) |
| What I don't understand is how do you determine which way the spirit is looking, so you know whether or not it's starting straight at it, or looking the wrong way, and is 'distracted.' |
I thought you were saying it is searching for incoming missiles/threats? I am assuming from any direction, so it is continually looking from point to point, not staring off in one direction. If it is looking in only one direction, this raise the possibility of surprise - getting taken from behind. If it is checking both in front and behind at intervals, it is distracted.
From your description, it seemed more likely it was looking all around, not just in one direction. So the distracted modifier seemed more appropriate than rolling for surprise.
What I get out of all of this is that a PC could summon a force 5 or 6 spirit and, according to you guys, tell it to intercept any incoming missiles and it should be able to accomplish it. The PC probably isn't worried so much about huge ICBMs or missiles that do 20D AV damage, but it should work just fine against bullets, grenades, arrows, shuriken, knives, etc.. They travel at slower speeds (for the most part) so should pose no problems for a little bit slower spirit. Or am I missing something?
| QUOTE |
| I thought you were saying it is searching for incoming missiles/threats? I am assuming from any direction, so it is continually looking from point to point, not staring off in one direction. If it is looking in only one direction, this raise the possibility of surprise - getting taken from behind. If it is checking both in front and behind at intervals, it is distracted. |
This brings up an interesting point - how do spirits perceive the world? Are they limited to forward-sight, with an effective 170° angle at best, like humans? Do they count as being able to perceive 360°, like a drone with sensores higher than 3?
And for the earlier asked (but unanswered) question of anything being able to see bullets ... yes, there are animals that can. Some cobras, for example. Usually, they instinctively try to bite the bullet, which makes shooting vaguely at these snakes a great way to kill them. All it needs is a retina with some 120 images/second and a brain fast enough to process that. Human eyes aren't really that well suited to perceiving things that move fast, at a meager 50 images/sec. But that doesn't mean nothing else is.
And putting itself into the missile's way is a melee attack for the spirit? Come on. That's really favouring the rigger. It isn't a melee attack to move close to another PC either, is it? all the spirit needs to do is put itself into the way of the missile, the rest is done by the missile itself.
Can I make a point ( as I started this thread!), I know that I need to run away if I come up against a GD, That point has been well done, but! what about a normal one? if this happens on a run I need to know the best survival tactics!
having never been up against a dragon of any sort before!
torz x
having never been up against a dragon of any sort before!
torz x
I think I already said this, but I don't fancy trawling 11 pages of replies for it :
If you can control the terrain, get a couple of assault cannons with the biggest baddest ammo you can and take it on in enclosed terrain where it can't take to the air. Most of a normal dragon's advantage comes from getting airborne where it can largely do as it likes with little retaliation. On the ground it loses manouevrability and has to exercise more caution in what it uses. Another nice touch would be to beg borrow and steal some AV mines and scatter them around as well, making sure to memorise the locations.
If you can't control the terrain, well, missile launchers would work better against Lessers than against the far more potent Greaters. Drone swarms are good, likewise creative use of Spirits. But better by far to get the bugger indoors.
:If you can control the terrain, get a couple of assault cannons with the biggest baddest ammo you can and take it on in enclosed terrain where it can't take to the air. Most of a normal dragon's advantage comes from getting airborne where it can largely do as it likes with little retaliation. On the ground it loses manouevrability and has to exercise more caution in what it uses. Another nice touch would be to beg borrow and steal some AV mines and scatter them around as well, making sure to memorise the locations.
If you can't control the terrain, well, missile launchers would work better against Lessers than against the far more potent Greaters. Drone swarms are good, likewise creative use of Spirits. But better by far to get the bugger indoors.
Try and get a position that it's at a disadvantage:
A western dragon especially, no good in tunnels (Wings and so on, serious handicap. Get the right ones and it might have to shapeshift into something smaller (and more fragile))
An eastern dragon? No wings. Tunnels lose some of their appeal. You can't dodge effectively when it uses the innate spell.
That being said, ambushes are your friend, especially with CXII. I think it was 4 kg I was told would probably do it at short range.
A western dragon especially, no good in tunnels (Wings and so on, serious handicap. Get the right ones and it might have to shapeshift into something smaller (and more fragile))
An eastern dragon? No wings. Tunnels lose some of their appeal. You can't dodge effectively when it uses the innate spell.
That being said, ambushes are your friend, especially with CXII. I think it was 4 kg I was told would probably do it at short range.
| QUOTE (torzzzzz) |
| ... but! what about a normal one? if this happens on a run I need to know the best survival tactics! |
There are a ton of answers scattered throughout this thread that have more than covered this question. I can't think of anything else that hasn't already been said.
| QUOTE |
| (Sandoval Smith) If "Bottled Demon" taught me anything at all, it was that the best way of fighting a dragon was to have a (great) dragon backing you up. |
Indeed.
Sounds like an SR version of an old military axiom:
The BEST defense against a tank is ANOTHER TANK.
Just curious though; in one of the stories on Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace, someone incapacitated a Great Dragon using a Splash Grenade filled with DMSO and a rather potent mixture of acids. He tossed the grenade into the air and, when it exploded, it hit the dragon in the face, temporarily blinding him.
Would something like that--using acids, or substituting the chemical/drug of the player's choice-- work in the game?
Edit: Whoops. Messed up the link on the first try. It's okay now, though. I hope....
--Foreigner
LOL to true!
torz x
torz x
For normal dragons, (if there can be said to be such things) here is a plan, don't know how good it is, but:
Drone riggers, a must.
A mage or two, not to cast but to provide shielding, banish spirits, and have elementals and sprits on call.
Assault cannons and HMGs with apds
hoopload of karma
A physad with a weapon foucus would be good for the latter part of the fight, but only if he's fast and the dragon has some high target numbers. If the physad goes to soon, he dies more than likely.
Throw away drones loaded with c12 doing a suicide run into the dragon in the early stages will be helpfull.
Anything that causes a background count will help, dragons are duel natured (wich is why a weapon focus is good) Astral static at high levels and.. I think it's called a tess's bloom, to increase the background count to give it a headache.
The longer the fight drags on, the less likely you are to live. So speed is good.
This is all i can think of at the moment. If I think of anything else, I'll post.
Drone riggers, a must.
A mage or two, not to cast but to provide shielding, banish spirits, and have elementals and sprits on call.
Assault cannons and HMGs with apds
hoopload of karma
A physad with a weapon foucus would be good for the latter part of the fight, but only if he's fast and the dragon has some high target numbers. If the physad goes to soon, he dies more than likely.
Throw away drones loaded with c12 doing a suicide run into the dragon in the early stages will be helpfull.
Anything that causes a background count will help, dragons are duel natured (wich is why a weapon focus is good) Astral static at high levels and.. I think it's called a tess's bloom, to increase the background count to give it a headache.
The longer the fight drags on, the less likely you are to live. So speed is good.
This is all i can think of at the moment. If I think of anything else, I'll post.
| QUOTE (Foreigner) |
| Would something like that--using acids, or substituting the chemical/drug of the player's choice-- work in the game? |
It would prolly do more damage, if you're gm ruled that the DMSO allowed the acid to bypass the dermal armor. (I could argue either sides. And prolly will end up doing so.
) Wheather or not that is actually an advantage, I don't know. In that case there was another GD involved killing some of the magical defenses. Against a adult? It might work.As far as it working at all, or the DMSO being neccissary? Well, don't know the stats of high concentraited sulfuric acid, but if it's power is less than the dragons armor, it might not work. Cursed hardend armor. The DMSO might allow you to bypass this, since though the armor covers the whole body, it is still organic tissue.
Of course, if you think about it, does DMSO work on a turtle shell? Not sure IRL, but if it doesn't, the DMSO might not work.
I'd prolly allow something like that, but it's up to you're GM.
PS- I love the stories on that page.
You know, why not just use Laes? There is no Power, so no worries about Hardened Armour or any other Armour for that matter.
Need 12 successes to totally negate the effects, at a TN of 6.
Need 12 successes to totally negate the effects, at a TN of 6.
Well, is hardened armor more of a carapace, or is their vessels and whatnot that feed that armor?
Hey, do Dragons shed like normal reptiles?
Hey, do Dragons shed like normal reptiles?
| QUOTE (Mortax) |
| Of course, if you think about it, does DMSO work on a turtle shell? Not sure IRL, but if it doesn't, the DMSO might not work. |
It does not. DMSO just makes already-porous skin more permeable. I'd argue that any version of hardened armor makes DMSO worthless for changing injection vector drugs to a contact vector. Not to mention that there are many drugs that work in mammalian physiology that have different or no effect in other physiologies.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| You know, why not just use Laes? There is no Power, so no worries about Hardened Armour or any other Armour for that matter. Need 12 successes to totally negate the effects, at a TN of 6. |
Assuming it actually works on Dragons.
Hmmm, wonder how effective nerve gas or VX would be? If you're in a, somewhat, sealed enviro and have the proper gear, VX would be nasty. Don't know if anyone has ever done a conversion.
IRL its leathality is 1 tsp arisol 1 to 8 city blocks. And it's defin. D damage. Watch "The Rock" (Sean Connery, N. Cage) Your skin melts and you spit your gets out. (slight exageration. Slight.)
seven-7 is an in game nerve agent.
Risin is another toxin that has high potency. 1 drop is ~ 500 times the leathel level for a human, so a few ml should at least hurt a dragon.
South Sea Cone shell venom is slightly more toxic, also I would have no idea how you'de get it. risin comes from castor beans, hence why your not suposed to eat them. (boiling them destroys the toxin)
No, I'm not a random psyco. They had something on the Discovery channel about toxins one day, and it was interesting enough that I watched it. I think I have game stats for risin, I'll look.
As to how to get the toxin in? Grenade filled with the toxin & DMSO in the mouth. Or a regular grenade in the mouth for that matter.
Or a really big tranque dart. REALLY big, with a hardend needle fired from a rocket launcher. (okay, so that's maily a joke, but still...)
high dose of lsd would be good too, increase target #
IRL its leathality is 1 tsp arisol 1 to 8 city blocks. And it's defin. D damage. Watch "The Rock" (Sean Connery, N. Cage) Your skin melts and you spit your gets out. (slight exageration. Slight.)
seven-7 is an in game nerve agent.
Risin is another toxin that has high potency. 1 drop is ~ 500 times the leathel level for a human, so a few ml should at least hurt a dragon.
South Sea Cone shell venom is slightly more toxic, also I would have no idea how you'de get it. risin comes from castor beans, hence why your not suposed to eat them. (boiling them destroys the toxin)
No, I'm not a random psyco.
They had something on the Discovery channel about toxins one day, and it was interesting enough that I watched it. I think I have game stats for risin, I'll look.As to how to get the toxin in? Grenade filled with the toxin & DMSO in the mouth. Or a regular grenade in the mouth for that matter.
Or a really big tranque dart. REALLY big, with a hardend needle fired from a rocket launcher.
(okay, so that's maily a joke, but still...)high dose of lsd would be good too, increase target #
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Assuming it actually works on Dragons. |
You are assuming that normal damage work on dragon as well. Dragons do not have Immunity to Toxins and everyone else is using other drugs so I assumed that toxins should work.
I certainly wasn't one of the people suggesting using other drugs. As to your statement about normal damage, well that really isn't the same thing as using something specifically tailored to work in a particular way on Metahumans.
Really? Canon does not make that distinction. On p120 M&M, there are no mention of metahuman subjects for Laes, just as there is no specificity of metahuman targets for normal damage.
Whatever. I still say that you are assuming that a drug made for metahumans (it wasn't made by and for dragons) would affect dragons. Mechanics are given for the possibility of normal damage to affect dragons, so that isn't an assumption on my part.
You will note that I am not saying it would not work, nor was I in my previous posts. merely that it is an assumption.
You will note that I am not saying it would not work, nor was I in my previous posts. merely that it is an assumption.
Hmm, would FAB II or III cause them some problems?
| QUOTE (Mortax) |
| Hmm, would FAB II or III cause them some problems? |
Probably not much. According to MitS, you can kill FAB III in astral combat or using a Sterilize or Cure Disease spell, both of which the dragons are apt to have handy if they need them.
Oddly enough, I just had a character try and shoot Ghostwalked in the mouth with a DMSO/Gamma Scopolamine capsule round (in his defense, he was trying to distract GW from chowing down on another team mate, and figured on the best case scenario being that GW gets a bad case of cottonmouth).
| QUOTE (Prospero) | ||
Probably not much. According to MitS, you can kill FAB III in astral combat or using a Sterilize or Cure Disease spell, both of which the dragons are apt to have handy if they need them. |
I thought as much. Of course, that still takes up an action or 2. A little stall can make all the difference.
| QUOTE |
| Oddly enough, I just had a character try and shoot Ghostwalked in the mouth with a DMSO/Gamma Scopolamine |
Fun. How'ed it work out?And just out of curiosity, what had the other player done to get GW to think he might make a tasety snack?
| QUOTE (Sandoval Smith) |
| best case scenario being that GW gets a bad case of cottonmouth |
From the capsule, or the PC? <g>
| QUOTE (Mortax) |
| And just out of curiosity, what had the other player done to get GW to think he might make a tasety snack? |
Not being a Great Dragon, perhaps?
ROTF!!
Although that sounds more like Lofwyr.
Although that sounds more like Lofwyr.
The other player just happened to greatly annoy GW by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and was about to get irritation taken out on him. My character survived the experince, although he was given a good singeing for his trouble. In hindsight, there were probably a lot smarter things he could've done, but that's hindsight for you.
you need a lot of patience against a dragon.
Y'know, I'd forgotten this one.
In the classic Danish sci-fi movie Reptilicus (1961), they put the critter out of action using a modified 3.5" Bazooka shell.
The hero removed most of the explosive charge, then filled the space he created with an unspecified drug. The intention, I think, was to knock the big beastie out so that he could be moved to a secure location--although the liquid used could also have been a toxin.
The critter's hide was rather tough, and it regenerated any wound received, up to and including total dismemberment by depth charge explosions.
(The movie opened with some North Sea oil rig workers discovering part of its tail trapped in one of their drills. Shortly after being dug up, the tail regenerated a complete new body, and it went on a rampage--S.O.P. for 1950s and early 1960s horror films.)
Anyway, they managed to catch it with its jaws agape, as it prepared to launch an attack with its main weapon--a toxic green slime that killed any living thing it touched. The bazooka shell hit the critter in the roof of its mouth--its Achilles' heel (I think the toxic slime was expelled through an opening in its palate) --and after a few moments of thrashing, it went limp.
I'm not certain if such a technique would work for a dragon--whether Lesser or Great--but it just might.
Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't a dragon need to drop any shields (at least the frontal ones, or around the mouth) that he/she is using in order to breathe flame or whatever?
Just asking, mind you.
--Foreigner
In the classic Danish sci-fi movie Reptilicus (1961), they put the critter out of action using a modified 3.5" Bazooka shell.
The hero removed most of the explosive charge, then filled the space he created with an unspecified drug. The intention, I think, was to knock the big beastie out so that he could be moved to a secure location--although the liquid used could also have been a toxin.
The critter's hide was rather tough, and it regenerated any wound received, up to and including total dismemberment by depth charge explosions.
(The movie opened with some North Sea oil rig workers discovering part of its tail trapped in one of their drills. Shortly after being dug up, the tail regenerated a complete new body, and it went on a rampage--S.O.P. for 1950s and early 1960s horror films.)
Anyway, they managed to catch it with its jaws agape, as it prepared to launch an attack with its main weapon--a toxic green slime that killed any living thing it touched. The bazooka shell hit the critter in the roof of its mouth--its Achilles' heel (I think the toxic slime was expelled through an opening in its palate) --and after a few moments of thrashing, it went limp.
I'm not certain if such a technique would work for a dragon--whether Lesser or Great--but it just might.
Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't a dragon need to drop any shields (at least the frontal ones, or around the mouth) that he/she is using in order to breathe flame or whatever?
Just asking, mind you.
--Foreigner
not sure. i don't think barrier spells are two-way, though i could be wrong.
Hmm, while most of the people in this debate are more knowledgable than I am, I think the Dragon may be given too much credit here. I submit my memories of the adventure book "Shadows of the Underworld." (Will look up exact quotes when I'm home)
In the first story the Named Great Eastern Dragon Masaru is attacked by a group of, IIRC, 4 runners. They infiltrate Masaru's lair, surprise him, stun him (The only reason Masaru lives is because they need him alive later) and steal his most prized possession, his egg. One runner is badly wounded and they require lots of Karma and a specially designed Stun Masaru spell to pull it off.
I can't see four runners doing this if Masaru had a tenth the defenses that are being attributed to the unnamed GD in the debate. I know Masaru is probably the weakest Named Great and not in Ghostwalker's class, but he's still a named Ultimate NPC. Could four runners really take down Masaru if he had two dozen spirits, a load of foci waiting to take down any incoming attack, a shield spell, etc. ad naseum protecting him? And remember this fight took place in Masaru's own lair, his most protected place and the area he'd have to be considered at his peak, with every possible resource available. And yet four runners took him with only one major injury.
In the first story the Named Great Eastern Dragon Masaru is attacked by a group of, IIRC, 4 runners. They infiltrate Masaru's lair, surprise him, stun him (The only reason Masaru lives is because they need him alive later) and steal his most prized possession, his egg. One runner is badly wounded and they require lots of Karma and a specially designed Stun Masaru spell to pull it off.
I can't see four runners doing this if Masaru had a tenth the defenses that are being attributed to the unnamed GD in the debate. I know Masaru is probably the weakest Named Great and not in Ghostwalker's class, but he's still a named Ultimate NPC. Could four runners really take down Masaru if he had two dozen spirits, a load of foci waiting to take down any incoming attack, a shield spell, etc. ad naseum protecting him? And remember this fight took place in Masaru's own lair, his most protected place and the area he'd have to be considered at his peak, with every possible resource available. And yet four runners took him with only one major injury.
Creative Licence. In a novel we had a man use a machinegun to shoot and kill a western dragon when in reality it's physically impossible for that gun to even harm it.
An author wanted it done, so he gives it a way, author's fiat style. I call it bad writing.
An author wanted it done, so he gives it a way, author's fiat style. I call it bad writing.
Well that makes sense. . . but isn't it just as much creative license to have the Great Dragon with five spirits on standby and channeling a force 10, plus with 8 Anchoring Foci designed to fight off various threats? Why not assume that the GD has no spirits on hand, no spells anchored/quickened, etc? Wouldn't that fit the existing canon such as Masaru better?
Basically, when it comes to named Dragons, it seems to me that the supplements and rule books give the GM great license to make said creatures unkillable. Phrases like "...Ghostwalker doesn't have any printed stats. He is as tough as the GM needs him to be to dissuade the PCs from doing anything foolish..."
Basically whether you live or die when facing off with a dragon is GM fiat. Never make a deal with a dragon because he or she will be the Ultimate Plot Hammer.
Basically whether you live or die when facing off with a dragon is GM fiat. Never make a deal with a dragon because he or she will be the Ultimate Plot Hammer.
| QUOTE |
| Never make a deal with a dragon because he or she will be the Ultimate Plot Hammer. |
"Shoot strait, conserve ammo, watch your back and never ever cut a deal with a dragon."
- old runner proverb
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) |
| Why not assume that the GD has no spirits on hand, no spells anchored/quickened, etc? Wouldn't that fit the existing canon such as Masaru better? |
No, because it makes having even a single Great Dragon alive in 2060 bulldrek. But if you want to call it creative license to have more or less sensible dragons, then I'd take that over the other.
Also, wasn't Masaru only an adult at the time?
| QUOTE (Bitbasher) |
| In a novel we had a man use a machinegun to shoot and kill a western dragon when in reality it's physically impossible for that gun to even harm it. |
howso? a western dragon has 8 points of armor, and the lightest light machine gun has a damage code of 9S. with enough skill and combat pool, you can out-success a dragon to death.
Actually, the weapon in question was a GE Vindicator Minigun, which, like all LMGs save for the HVMPLMG, deals 7S base damage. It's MMGs and HMGs which deal 9S and 10S, respectively. Of course, he could have been using explosive ammunition or armor-piercing, both of which would have enabled him to damage Haesslich. The real question is, why wouldn't Haesslich have had any personal barrier spells? Or summoned spirits? There's no way a single mundane human with an anti-personnel firearm should be able to take down a dragon that's not distracted, young, or unbelievably reckless.
When the GM starts treating dragons as beings of magic, and having them actually employ their on-average considerable magical powers in addition to their physical prowess, they really get scary. Sure, a being who deals as much damage as a buffed out troll adept in hand to hand, with three times the reach, and has the equivalent of medium military armor along with Body two or three times that of tough-guy characters, who can breathe fire and fly, can be pretty dangerous. Now... what happens when that same dragon has eight spirits and/or elementals on hand, has metamagical shielding, has quickened armor and combat sense on itself, and starts the battle by using Invisibility and targetting astrally aware characters first with hit-and-run tactics?
When the GM starts treating dragons as beings of magic, and having them actually employ their on-average considerable magical powers in addition to their physical prowess, they really get scary. Sure, a being who deals as much damage as a buffed out troll adept in hand to hand, with three times the reach, and has the equivalent of medium military armor along with Body two or three times that of tough-guy characters, who can breathe fire and fly, can be pretty dangerous. Now... what happens when that same dragon has eight spirits and/or elementals on hand, has metamagical shielding, has quickened armor and combat sense on itself, and starts the battle by using Invisibility and targetting astrally aware characters first with hit-and-run tactics?
Everybody dies.
Except the dragon.
Except the dragon.
| QUOTE (Toshiaki) |
| Everybody dies. Except the dragon. |
And Tisoz. 'Cause he disbeleives.
| QUOTE (Critias) | ||
And Tisoz. 'Cause he disbeleives. |
Don't you mean "Actively disbelieves"?
[Ducking]
You could, I dunno, drop a building on the dragon. Then hit it with a tac-nuke.
Might work.
-karma
Might work.
-karma
Good idea but its the dropping of the building, especially if you take it on in the wilderness!
I mean dropping a building is no mean feet in its self!
torz x
I mean dropping a building is no mean feet in its self!
torz x
heh, dropping a building is easy. picking it up in the first place is the hard part.
LOL, or four trolls ....... one on each corner!
torz x:)
torz x:)
I looked up my old Shadows of the Underworld.
Masaru is indeed a Great Eastern (Since only Greats get to rear eggs that should be a no brainer).
Masaru was caught by surprise when a group of 4 runners entered his lair. He injured the group's mage, inflicting a serious, then the mage managed to take Masaru down with a stun spell. The rest of the group is unharmed. The fact that a mage with S damage could still take a dragon down with 1 spell tells you something.
The adventure also specifies that, if the runners fail, Lonestar will Kill Masaru with an HTR team so even when he loaded up all his powers and decided to launch a full-out assault a Great Eastern isn't all that.
So to recap:
Virtually all the available canon points to Dragons not having such defenses as channelled spirits and dozens of summoned spirits on standby along with multiple anchor foci, both novels and adventures alike. The only time Dragons seem to have such abilities is when they've had plenty of time to prepare for an attack, or plan it themselves. Even Named Greats. Non-Named Greats are bound to be even less capable, and non-greats are going to be a level below that.
However some people simply don't want to accept Canon and are making up their own ideas of what a dragon has, in direct contravention of what the books say. Well, more power to you chummers.
Masaru is indeed a Great Eastern (Since only Greats get to rear eggs that should be a no brainer).
Masaru was caught by surprise when a group of 4 runners entered his lair. He injured the group's mage, inflicting a serious, then the mage managed to take Masaru down with a stun spell. The rest of the group is unharmed. The fact that a mage with S damage could still take a dragon down with 1 spell tells you something.
The adventure also specifies that, if the runners fail, Lonestar will Kill Masaru with an HTR team so even when he loaded up all his powers and decided to launch a full-out assault a Great Eastern isn't all that.
So to recap:
Virtually all the available canon points to Dragons not having such defenses as channelled spirits and dozens of summoned spirits on standby along with multiple anchor foci, both novels and adventures alike. The only time Dragons seem to have such abilities is when they've had plenty of time to prepare for an attack, or plan it themselves. Even Named Greats. Non-Named Greats are bound to be even less capable, and non-greats are going to be a level below that.
However some people simply don't want to accept Canon and are making up their own ideas of what a dragon has, in direct contravention of what the books say. Well, more power to you chummers.
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