hermit, I think you're missing his point.
While GDs are completely beyond any scope of power a regular PC could ever hope to attain, they still have to follow some rules in combat lest it is just the GM fucking you over on purpose.
Yes. They're smarter than anybody ever period. We get that.
Yes. They're stronger than anybody ever period. We get that too.
Yes. They're more capable magicians than anybody ever period. We get that as well.
However, that does not mean they can do anything willy nilly with no concern for their actions. This also means that they will not succeed at every test ever without rolling.
That is the point that is trying to be made.
Full Version: Dragons
Well, maybe not for insanely powered spells, but for normal spells (anything till force 6), I would considetr rolling a waste of time. then again, if some players want this because they feel fucked over otherwise, duh, I'd roll for the dragon and then have them die by a dice roll instead of GM-says-so. Same outcome.
And Ghostwalker has his special summoning powers, because it is cannon and the books say so. Don't like it? Make a house rule then negating that. But don't yell at people who don't follow that house rule, okay?
And Ghostwalker has his special summoning powers, because it is cannon and the books say so. Don't like it? Make a house rule then negating that. But don't yell at people who don't follow that house rule, okay?
hmmm. I've been juggling the numbers, and I think that a spirit could indeed intercept a missile.
Here's the info I'm working with, since I don't have YotC, MitS or Critters handy right now.
1) A sylph spirit has Quickness = F +3
2) A Sylph spirit has the movement power
Now, if I remember correctly, the movement power allows the critter with it to multiply or divide a target's movement rate by its essence (or force, in this case). Now, assuming that target can be the Sylph itself (which might be wrong, I'm not sure), here's an example.
Pale-Scales conjures up a Sylph at say, oh, Force 10, and makes it Great Form (why not? I assume he's got enough dice and burnable Karma to make at least one 20), he's gotta be grade 30 initiate or something similar, so he's got 15 points of additions to make, and he throws 14 of them into reach bonuses (2 points per extra reach, right?). Sylph is given a command to 'intercept any missiles shot at me', being a force 10 spirit, the Sylph would be smarter than just about any metahuman, so it figures out how to make this command work fairly easily, and with a bit of descriptive help from GW it could probably figure out what a missile is, too.
Then some fool with military hardware decides to shoot down a Great Dragon, and fires off something big and nasty (I'm assuming we're talking a naval missile, or something of similar power and speed). Missile takes off, Spirit leaps into action.
Assuming a Missile velocity of 2250mph (3600 kph), it's travelling pretty damn fast.
The Sylph, using movement to make itself faster, works it's kph out like this:
Q=F+3 = 13
13x3 = 39 mpt (Normal top speed per Combat Turn)
39 x 10 = 390 mpt (Movement-power top speed per Combat Turn)
390 x 20 = 7800 mpm (Movement-power top speed per minute @ 3 seconds a Combat Turn)
7800 x 60 = 468,000 m(eters)ph (Movement-power top speed per hour @ 60 minutes an hour)
468,000 / 1000 = 468 kph (movement power top speed per hour)
That's pretty damn fast. Not Missile speed, but damn fast nonetheless. Now, if the spirit had to OVERTAKE the missile, this would be a problem. But it doesn't. The spirit doesn't have to move faster than the missile at ALL, just just fast enough to get in its way.
Now, assuming that the spirit CAN'T change it's own movement rate (which it should, since using the Movement power is a complex action, and moving is a free one), does the missile get treated like a vehicle? If so what's it's body rating? And acceleration rating (I would assume, fairly damn high)? How does the onboard guidance system react to a sudden, inexplicable drop in speed?Okay, assuming that the missile just gets its speed divided by ten, it's now only going 360 kph, and the spirit (without movement on itself) is going 46.8 kph. The missile has suddenly dropped THOUSANDS of kilometers an hour, and our Force 10 reach 7 Sylph just gets near it and takes a good whack at it. Disrupted spirit? maybe, intercepted missile? You bet!
A lot of assumptions went into this, so there's plenty of room for error, but I think the logic of it is consistant.
Here's the info I'm working with, since I don't have YotC, MitS or Critters handy right now.
1) A sylph spirit has Quickness = F +3
2) A Sylph spirit has the movement power
Now, if I remember correctly, the movement power allows the critter with it to multiply or divide a target's movement rate by its essence (or force, in this case). Now, assuming that target can be the Sylph itself (which might be wrong, I'm not sure), here's an example.
Pale-Scales conjures up a Sylph at say, oh, Force 10, and makes it Great Form (why not? I assume he's got enough dice and burnable Karma to make at least one 20), he's gotta be grade 30 initiate or something similar, so he's got 15 points of additions to make, and he throws 14 of them into reach bonuses (2 points per extra reach, right?). Sylph is given a command to 'intercept any missiles shot at me', being a force 10 spirit, the Sylph would be smarter than just about any metahuman, so it figures out how to make this command work fairly easily, and with a bit of descriptive help from GW it could probably figure out what a missile is, too.
Then some fool with military hardware decides to shoot down a Great Dragon, and fires off something big and nasty (I'm assuming we're talking a naval missile, or something of similar power and speed). Missile takes off, Spirit leaps into action.
Assuming a Missile velocity of 2250mph (3600 kph), it's travelling pretty damn fast.
The Sylph, using movement to make itself faster, works it's kph out like this:
Q=F+3 = 13
13x3 = 39 mpt (Normal top speed per Combat Turn)
39 x 10 = 390 mpt (Movement-power top speed per Combat Turn)
390 x 20 = 7800 mpm (Movement-power top speed per minute @ 3 seconds a Combat Turn)
7800 x 60 = 468,000 m(eters)ph (Movement-power top speed per hour @ 60 minutes an hour)
468,000 / 1000 = 468 kph (movement power top speed per hour)
That's pretty damn fast. Not Missile speed, but damn fast nonetheless. Now, if the spirit had to OVERTAKE the missile, this would be a problem. But it doesn't. The spirit doesn't have to move faster than the missile at ALL, just just fast enough to get in its way.
Now, assuming that the spirit CAN'T change it's own movement rate (which it should, since using the Movement power is a complex action, and moving is a free one), does the missile get treated like a vehicle? If so what's it's body rating? And acceleration rating (I would assume, fairly damn high)? How does the onboard guidance system react to a sudden, inexplicable drop in speed?Okay, assuming that the missile just gets its speed divided by ten, it's now only going 360 kph, and the spirit (without movement on itself) is going 46.8 kph. The missile has suddenly dropped THOUSANDS of kilometers an hour, and our Force 10 reach 7 Sylph just gets near it and takes a good whack at it. Disrupted spirit? maybe, intercepted missile? You bet!
A lot of assumptions went into this, so there's plenty of room for error, but I think the logic of it is consistant.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Tisoz. Look. Most Greats have specialities. Celedyr can dive through the earth, just like that, like ti was water. Is there a spell to do that, for an extended time, without any withdrawal or TN mali for upkeep? Not that I knew of. Hestaby has a whole herd of magically active, very powerful, deer-things under her control. Are there any rules how a PC can get such a pet? Not that I know of. Ghostwalker is the master of Spirits, the greatest conjurer EVER. It is clearly stated in DotSW that he can conjure in a way metahumans just can't. Not even other Dragons or his fellow Greats can! He uses his own very special Ghostwalker magic to get his way with them. Means it's not covered by the standard rules. Got that? Normal rules for PCs and metahuman NPCs (and lesser dragons) don't apply to Greats unless the GM makes a house rule saying so. That is what all the people here try to tell you, and what you refuse to acknowledge. You're welcome to make yourself a house rule, and play an overpowered campaign revolving entirely on gun-toting PCs eradicating all thsoe pesky dragons if it makes you happy. Noone will stop you. Just don't call the rest of us dumb if we don't do that. Or sore losers because we side with "them". And why is it "With me or against me" anyway? Don't you take this a wee bit too serious? It is a game, man! |
Personally?
I would have thought it was the other way around.
Greats with the special abilities and so on are the exceptions. The rest operate more similar to the PCs as far as things go. I would even think that the greats with special abilities operate as PCs for the rest of things.
Yes, they're plot devices... but plot devices that operate on 'GM whim' or 'Storyteller say-so' with no background justification and so on, as a matter of course, are scary. It doesn't matter so much if the PCs and Players are aware of it, but that they CAN BECOME aware of it.
Maybe Ghostwalker has some specific affinity to spirits, and took a series of extended astral quest that let him build that affinity into something so much more (For instance, a metamagic technique that requires a couple dozen other techniques). Maybe it's possible he could teach someone else to do it. Maybe not. Maybe there are thousands of people with the affinity, but none of them have developed it, and the ones that tried HAVEN'T been able to perform the astral quests. They've been thrown out, or died in the process. Or just died of old age.
It only makes sense that even the greatest of the Greats has some Reason for that ability, beyond 'They're a Great Dragon'. Beyond that... It gives a REALLY good plot hook, if you're playing a high powered campaign. So you've got a conjurer who's dealt with Ghostwalker before.. make a story that ends up with him learning one of the REALLY minor metamagic techniques that give Ghostwalker his abilities. Have it as an entire plot thread, right up to learning how to control it.
To make Great Dragons the most terrifying things on the block doesn't require making them outside the rules.
Besides, as an example of something IN the rules for PCs, invoking tests are double force minus initiate grade. Great Dragons? They're massively high initiates.
So.. figuring initiate grade 20 (lots and lots of metamagic techniques)..
Summoning a Force 20 Great Form spirit.. would be TN 20 across.
If the grade gets high enough, then it becomes negligable to summon a great form. (Initiate grade 40, force 20).
Frankly, I'd feel that anytime a PC of mine ends up in combat with a Great Dragon it's because the GM is trying to fuck me over on purpose.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| PS: I already anticipate the kind of response this will generate. |
Hey, great. Save me the trouble of reading all that other shit you wrote, and reply for me, wouldja? Thanks.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| And Ghostwalker has his special summoning powers, because it is cannon and the books say so. |
Where does it say so? Nowhere in DotSW does it say "Ghostwalker can summon anything he wants with no rolls whatsoever period" or even anything remotely similar to that.
The only thing that it says for certain is that Dragons don't play by our rules for magic.
If it said somewhere that Dragons use what could be considered Thread Magic, fine. But it says nothing on the subject of Dragon magic. Not one word, other than "it's different."
Maybe in a future release they'll tell us how their magic works. But for now, all they have are vague responses that won't get us anywhere.
@ Dawnshadow: When you start making up rules like that, then they are, in a significant way, outside the rules (or the normal rules at least). On the other hand, yeah, you're definatly right about Ghostwalker's power. To some extent, it could be in the rules. Making up some sort of secret metamagic could be cool - and not just for higher level campaigns. What if GW knows how to summon and control Shedim (he did seem to bring a lot of them with him)? Lots of people are going to be interested in that knowledge. What if someone, after doing something really great for GW (like, say, destroying a major cell of Los Espejos or something) gets let in on the secret. Then the PCs get sent to get said secret from said recipient of the secret. Cool adventure right there, doesn't even have to be a high powered campaign.
And I think you're right, yeah, "plot device" characters are scary because they can turn you into so much grease on the sidewalk without much effort. But they should be able to. Just because they can doesn't mean they will. No GM worth the title is going to just randomly wipe out his PCs like that. If s/he did, I wouldn't play that game again, unless I'd somehow brought it on myself (like with level 6 hunted by a level 6 enemy flaw - Lofwyr or something). And the cardinal rule of gaming is that if you give something stats, someone will find a way to kill it, which I just don't think is appropriate with GDs. They shouldn't be killable by any reasonable PC standard and even by most other NPC standards. Period. If a GD dies, it should be a major story event and not be rolled out for 10 hours as a combat. I mean, if a group of shadowrunners could wipe out a GD, don't you think that they'd have all beed killed by now? Most of them win mighty few popularity contests.
And I think you're right, yeah, "plot device" characters are scary because they can turn you into so much grease on the sidewalk without much effort. But they should be able to. Just because they can doesn't mean they will. No GM worth the title is going to just randomly wipe out his PCs like that. If s/he did, I wouldn't play that game again, unless I'd somehow brought it on myself (like with level 6 hunted by a level 6 enemy flaw - Lofwyr or something). And the cardinal rule of gaming is that if you give something stats, someone will find a way to kill it, which I just don't think is appropriate with GDs. They shouldn't be killable by any reasonable PC standard and even by most other NPC standards. Period. If a GD dies, it should be a major story event and not be rolled out for 10 hours as a combat. I mean, if a group of shadowrunners could wipe out a GD, don't you think that they'd have all beed killed by now? Most of them win mighty few popularity contests.
Well, while we're at that ... assuming that dragons only spend some 5000 Karma on their abilities, and 90% of that was burned on things like "geography of Barsaive", "skyship combat (theran juggernaut)" and "Blood Forest Etiquette" ... adn again assuming the dragon gets a meager 2 Karma for each year it has been awake, which would be over a course of some 20.000 years (assuming Ghostwalker was a child of the 2nd age) ... what initiate grade could he, provided he'd have some 35.000 Karma to spend, reach, at maximum? Assuming he'd use standard initiation rules and do everything possible to speed up process?
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Well, while we're at that ... assuming that dragons only spend some 5000 Karma on their abilities, and 90% of that was burned on things like "geography of Barsaive", "skyship combat (theran juggernaut)" and "Blood Forest Etiquette" ... adn again assuming the dragon gets a meager 2 Karma for each year it has been awake, which would be over a course of some 20.000 years (assuming Ghostwalker was a child of the 2nd age) ... what initiate grade could he, provided he'd have some 35.000 Karma to spend, reach, at maximum? Assuming he'd use standard initiation rules and do everything possible to speed up process? |
Rough calculation: about grade 150.... using normal rules and NO ordeals..
start: 35000 karma.
Divide by 3 (to get rid of the scaling of costs)
gives: 11667
Formula for sum arithmetic series (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 .. + n): n(n -1)/2
Which is approximately (n)(n)/2
solve for n: 152.
Now... using astral quests/ordeals: about grade 170
The above is assuming they don't increase their skills in things like Sorcery and Conjuring (and a myriad of other skills that they'd have), not to mention increasing their Attributes.
It's the Script Immunity badge. Some NPC's have them, some don't.
If you gave Harlequin stats, I know at least one of my runners would have tried to kill him - and (if you stuck to no fudging of dice) there is just the outside chance that he could. Then I get to write a whole new ongoing background for Shadowrun from that point onwards. Er, no.
Named GD's and IE's can do magical stuff no PC can even approach? Wow, whoulda thunk?! Of course they can. Come on, magic's been in the world for 50 years so far. How can you possibly think we know everything about how it works? Funny, I don't see any Thread Magic rules knocking about...
Really, I fail to see how this is such a big issue. Would you let a bunch of Forgotten Realms PC's kill Elminster? If the answer's yes, you're a bigger glutton for punishment than I am - last time I looked (admittedly a long time ago) FR was, like SR, an evolving game-world. You'd have to rewrite so much stuff it wouldn't be funny. Kill Dunkelzahn in 2053? Welcome to divergent realities. You can just save money on all those later books.
So the canon provides for you not having to do that. Sounds good to me. Last time I looked, nobody in my games was playing the Saint of Killers anyway - they shouldn't be able to kill everything out there.
Returning to the OP's topic, then, and assuming we're not talking about a GD:
Beg, borrow or steal a couple of assault cannons, and get the biggest, baddest ammo you can lay your hands on. They're about the best dragon-killing weapon I can think of, since you don't have to sweat the transit time of a missile and can use them effectively indoors.
I specify that last point, because my next piece of advice is - don't face it outside if you have even the slightest choice in the matter. Once a dragon gets off the ground, you are basically screwed.
If you gave Harlequin stats, I know at least one of my runners would have tried to kill him - and (if you stuck to no fudging of dice) there is just the outside chance that he could. Then I get to write a whole new ongoing background for Shadowrun from that point onwards. Er, no.
Named GD's and IE's can do magical stuff no PC can even approach? Wow, whoulda thunk?! Of course they can. Come on, magic's been in the world for 50 years so far. How can you possibly think we know everything about how it works? Funny, I don't see any Thread Magic rules knocking about...
Really, I fail to see how this is such a big issue. Would you let a bunch of Forgotten Realms PC's kill Elminster? If the answer's yes, you're a bigger glutton for punishment than I am - last time I looked (admittedly a long time ago) FR was, like SR, an evolving game-world. You'd have to rewrite so much stuff it wouldn't be funny. Kill Dunkelzahn in 2053? Welcome to divergent realities. You can just save money on all those later books.
So the canon provides for you not having to do that. Sounds good to me. Last time I looked, nobody in my games was playing the Saint of Killers anyway - they shouldn't be able to kill everything out there.
Returning to the OP's topic, then, and assuming we're not talking about a GD:
Beg, borrow or steal a couple of assault cannons, and get the biggest, baddest ammo you can lay your hands on. They're about the best dragon-killing weapon I can think of, since you don't have to sweat the transit time of a missile and can use them effectively indoors.
I specify that last point, because my next piece of advice is - don't face it outside if you have even the slightest choice in the matter. Once a dragon gets off the ground, you are basically screwed.
Tanka, I already set aside 5000 Karma for skills, and then said that propably up to 90% of these skiklls would be irrelevant in the 6th world, or at least be too arcane to ever be used in a shadowrun game.
Actually, re-writing history is not that hard, if you have a good enough attention to detail. If something in your campaign happened different than in the Metaplot, what are you going to do? Declare that the events in the campaign are null and void, and that the metaplot takes precedence? Or continue the game as if what happened in the game was , well, what happened in the game.
I run a game where New York got nuked in early 2060, everything had to change from that point on, and I've made it so it has. Some major events are the same, some aren't, and a good GM should be able to do this with no problem whatsoever.
I run a game where New York got nuked in early 2060, everything had to change from that point on, and I've made it so it has. Some major events are the same, some aren't, and a good GM should be able to do this with no problem whatsoever.
Sure, most campaigns differ somewhat from canon ... but if you want to do that it's like a house rule ... and for all I know, this forum considers canon as being standard in all respects.
Hence the argument about whether or not a GD would have to cast magic like your average spellslinging punk.
Hence the argument about whether or not a GD would have to cast magic like your average spellslinging punk.
absolutely, but the comment was made in regards to things happening in a game (and therefore outside of canon metaplot) and the effect that would have on the metaplot. My response was simply that it would have no effect whatsoever on metaplot, but a massive effect in-game, and a GM should be able to handle that.
As to GD's casting magic like your average spellslinging punk, well, I'm not going to stick my head to far into the jaws of THAT particular monster. I houserule that GD's gotta roll the dice just like everyone else, at least for actions that affect the PC's. But I'm a nice GM who doesn't like to kill PC's off so easily.
As to GD's casting magic like your average spellslinging punk, well, I'm not going to stick my head to far into the jaws of THAT particular monster. I houserule that GD's gotta roll the dice just like everyone else, at least for actions that affect the PC's. But I'm a nice GM who doesn't like to kill PC's off so easily.
| QUOTE |
| I'm a nice GM who doesn't like to kill PC's off so easily. |
I have to say, if the average shadowteam came face to face with a named GD in one of my games, I'd like to think they'd realise that combat was a foolish idea. If they still tried something on, well, more fool them.
If you want your dragons to be killable, I don't see why using lessers is a problem. Unless you specifically want the metaplot to change.
The average shadowteam would be jelly left on the pavement after an encounter with a hostile GD. This particular campaign I'm running is VERY high-powered, and, fortunately for the PC's, every time they come up against a GD they had another dragon backing them up. (They were nearly squashed by said dragon before managing to make a deal with it, where it had them help to let it cheat the system and become a GD without going through the normal process, and it would help them out against anything too big for them to handle)
| QUOTE (tanka) | ||
Where does it say so? Nowhere in DotSW does it say "Ghostwalker can summon anything he wants with no rolls whatsoever period" or even anything remotely similar to that. The only thing that it says for certain is that Dragons don't play by our rules for magic. If it said somewhere that Dragons use what could be considered Thread Magic, fine. But it says nothing on the subject of Dragon magic. Not one word, other than "it's different." Maybe in a future release they'll tell us how their magic works. But for now, all they have are vague responses that won't get us anywhere. |
Actually, the Earthdawn dragon sourcebook is what you will want to look at (and don't say "but it's not Shadowrun", since Ghostwalker IS Icewing from the 4th world). He has a strong affinity for spirits of all kinds. It doesn't list any stats, but I'll get back to you on this when I do a thorough reading of his bio.
| QUOTE (Sharaloth) |
| hmmm. I've been juggling the numbers, and I think that a spirit could indeed intercept a missile. <snip #s that look right> Sylph is given a command to 'intercept any missiles shot at me', being a force 10 spirit, the Sylph would be smarter than just about any metahuman, so it figures out how to make this command work fairly easily, and with a bit of descriptive help from GW it could probably figure out what a missile is, too. Then some fool with military hardware decides to shoot down a Great Dragon, and fires off something big and nasty (I'm assuming we're talking a naval missile, or something of similar power and speed). Missile takes off, Spirit leaps into action. |
A surprise test would probably be in order at this point, especially if the missile is outside of detection spell range or visual sight.
But I like your approach so far.
| QUOTE |
| Assuming a Missile velocity of 2250mph (3600 kph), it's travelling pretty damn fast. |
That was what I came up with using the slowest missile speed I could find. I arrived at it by taking the extreme range number and figuring it could travel that far to allow it to be fired in phase 1-10 and still arrive and detonate at phase 0. Remember, there are faster missiles.
| QUOTE |
| The Sylph, using movement to make itself faster, works it's kph out like this: <snip> 468 kph (movement power top speed per hour) |
I used the formula: speed x 1.2=kph, or speed x .75 = mph
or: 292.5 mph
| QUOTE |
| That's pretty damn fast. Not Missile speed, but damn fast nonetheless. Now, if the spirit had to OVERTAKE the missile, this would be a problem. But it doesn't. The spirit doesn't have to move faster than the missile at ALL, just just fast enough to get in its way. |
Good point. I was calculating the need to at least match its speed. It should still need to make a perception test to see something going that fast, which, if the GM wants to be a bastard, would take a simple action. The spirit would fail by not having enough available actions. But we'll overlook that because it could inspire another off topic debate.
| QUOTE |
| Now, assuming that the spirit CAN'T change it's own movement rate (which it should, since using the Movement power is a complex action, and moving is a free one), does the missile get treated like a vehicle? If so what's it's body rating? And acceleration rating (I would assume, fairly damn high)? How does the onboard guidance system react to a sudden, inexplicable drop in speed?Okay, assuming that the missile just gets its speed divided by ten, it's now only going 360 kph, and the spirit (without movement on itself) is going 46.8 kph. |
No problem with spirit using movement on self, unless people want to get real picky about stress on the spirit, and triggering a quickness test on itself to avoid an accident. So spirit is cruising along without problem.
I used the distance the missile can travel in a turn as movement rate, so dividing by 10 yields your result of 360 kph. However that is a second complex action this phase for the spirit and it should only get one.
| QUOTE |
| The missile has suddenly dropped THOUSANDS of kilometers an hour, and our Force 10 reach 7 Sylph just gets near it and takes a good whack at it. |
This would be a melee test which is a third complex action this phase. And there should be some TN mods like vision and movement.
| QUOTE |
| Disrupted spirit? maybe, intercepted missile? You bet! |
Probably right, but it would actually take about 3 spirits 2 accomplish the 3 complex actions, and they all need to work in concert and they would all need to make a (simple) surprise test.
You might not need the melee test. Is there a way to invoke a crash test that is fair (not GM fiat.) That would get the number of spirits acting in concert down to 2 per missile.
Another problem I see is if the missile is guided and simply goes around the spirit if the spirit is only trying to get in its path instead of trying to match its speed. A force 10 spirit should be easy to see on a sensor test. Or the suggestion I've seen on these forums that a spirits armor doesn't actually stop anything, but lets it pass through without hurting the spirit (unless it is enough to hurt the spirit.)
| QUOTE |
| A lot of assumptions went into this, so there's plenty of room for error, but I think the logic of it is consistant. |
I thought your numbers looked good, logic wasn't really faulty, just overlooked how many actions can be performed in a turn.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Hey, great. Save me the trouble of reading all that other shit you wrote, and reply for me, wouldja? Thanks. |
Actually I anticipated something exactly like this, only much, much longer. Thanks for making your point quickly and concisely.
@ a few others: I really wish you would drop references to named great dragons. I (mistakenly as it seems) used GW in the example as someone who couldn't be claimed to be an inadequate example in the conjuring aptitude of dragons. I would agree a PC going up against a named great dragon is the GM using a plot device or wanting to kill characters.
[ Spoiler ]
Because it goes off topic.
Erm i don't know if this will effect your number any But R3 on pg 56 says that Anti-Air missiles move at 5000 Meters per turn where as Anti-Suface Missiles (naval) move at 1000 Meters per turn.
Oh and a think a force 10 Slyph get 3 Actions per turn. Movement on it's Self, Movement on the Missile, PychoKennis "punch" the missile or what ever means to take your fancy.
Oh and a think a force 10 Slyph get 3 Actions per turn. Movement on it's Self, Movement on the Missile, PychoKennis "punch" the missile or what ever means to take your fancy.
For some reason I though Sylphs had a flying multiplier like the air elemental (x 4). But it only has to move a few meters to block incoming missiles, especially using the movement power (simply sustained on itself). Canon already supports that spirits block missiles with Immunity (YotC). I'd simply treat each spirit to a side as partial cover, and add that to the missile's TN. Along with Deflect, most missiles will miss.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||||
Actually, the Earthdawn dragon sourcebook is what you will want to look at (and don't say "but it's not Shadowrun", since Ghostwalker IS Icewing from the 4th world). He has a strong affinity for spirits of all kinds. It doesn't list any stats, but I'll get back to you on this when I do a thorough reading of his bio. |
As far as I'm concerned, the rules don't translate from ED to SR. There isn't conversion material, and FanPro has said they aren't planning on negotiating any more crossovers between the two systems.
Meaning: It says so in ED, but I'd like to see them give a bit more information so that it can canoninically be proven that certain GDs can do certain things. As it stands, it's a bunch of "yeah it kinda says" and "in this ED book it mentions..." Not enough to start ruleslawyering on.
How about explicit text in Survival of the Fittest that says something to the effect of "If PCs go up against Great Dragons, they are squashed, and the stats of the Great Dragons represent the weakest members"?
EDIT: The exact text, in Survival of the Fittest, page 11-
EDIT: The exact text, in Survival of the Fittest, page 11-
| QUOTE |
| ULTIMATE-LEVEL CHARACTERS Survival of the Fittest deals with some of the most powerful beings in the Sixth World, the great dragons. Since they appear only occasionally throughout the series and are not expected to come into direct conflict with the player characters, no game statistics are provided for them. The great dragons are tremendously powerful, ancient beings. In addition to their immense physical strength and sheer toughness, they also have considerable magical skill and power. They should be considered Ultimate-level NPCs, according to the system in the Shadowrun Companion. If necessary, the statistics given in SR3 (p.269) can be used as a guideline for the great dragons. But keep in mind that those statistics represent the minimum abilities of a great dragon, including Strength of 50, 20 points of Hardened Armor, and Mental attributes and Magic in the double-digits. Using the rules from Magic in the Shadows, all great dragons are at least Grade 10 initiates (usually higher), know all the available metamagic techniques and have a wide selection of powerful spells. In short, if the player characters try to frag with a great dragon directly, they haven't got a chance. |
Also, concerning Icewing and Spirits:
| QUOTE |
| Icewing has summoned and bargained with a number of powerful Named spirits that do his bidding, including unique spirits the like of which even potent magicians such as your family have never seen before. His strength in this realm should concern you, as their nature and abilities are elusive and difficult to defend against. |
It goes on to say that he has the spirit of his former mate bound to him for some reason.
Haven't read SotF. Frankly, I've heard nothing but disdain about it, so I'm not too worried about what it does or doesn't say.
That's just me, though.
More seriously, I'm not trying to say a runner team can take down a named GD (even one not as well known like Dzitblachén) without a lot of planning and making sure nobody knows about it outside of themselves (because chances are damn good that if anybody overhears it, the GD will know) as well as having a lot of firepower to back themselves up.
As I keep saying: Yes, they're powerful, magically adept (moreso than anyone in the 6th World outside of themselves and IEs) and supersmart. However, that does not mean that anything they do is automatically a success. That is my beef with the majority of this. All the replies of "Oh, they're GDs, so they win automatically." That's just bullshit. And if any of my GMs were to pull that, I would walk out of the game and never talk to them again. It is, plainly put, bad form to say that a GD swats you like a gnat and you die immediately.
That's just me, though.
More seriously, I'm not trying to say a runner team can take down a named GD (even one not as well known like Dzitblachén) without a lot of planning and making sure nobody knows about it outside of themselves (because chances are damn good that if anybody overhears it, the GD will know) as well as having a lot of firepower to back themselves up.
As I keep saying: Yes, they're powerful, magically adept (moreso than anyone in the 6th World outside of themselves and IEs) and supersmart. However, that does not mean that anything they do is automatically a success. That is my beef with the majority of this. All the replies of "Oh, they're GDs, so they win automatically." That's just bullshit. And if any of my GMs were to pull that, I would walk out of the game and never talk to them again. It is, plainly put, bad form to say that a GD swats you like a gnat and you die immediately.
| QUOTE (tanka @ Mar 4 2005, 10:48 PM) |
| Haven't read SotF. Frankly, I've heard nothing but disdain about it, so I'm not too worried about what it does or doesn't say. That's just me, though. |
Ah yes, dismiss the source to back up a personal claim. Someone is getting defensive.
EDIT: Sorry, that was a bit harsh, I apologize.
Which is why I moved on to back myself up with something more solid than "I haven't read it and have heard nothing but bad about it."
Had I read it, I could decide it for myself.
And my point still stands. If a team somehow gets in combat with a GD, then the GD had better be making rolls. If it isn't, the GM is screwing you over just to satiate his own lust for power.
Had I read it, I could decide it for myself.
And my point still stands. If a team somehow gets in combat with a GD, then the GD had better be making rolls. If it isn't, the GM is screwing you over just to satiate his own lust for power.
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| And my point still stands. If a team somehow gets in combat with a GD, then the GD had better be making rolls. If it isn't, the GM is screwing you over just to satiate his own lust for power. |
Whether or not a GM rolls is irrelevant to whether or not they are sating a lust for power. Not rolling could be to expedite a foregone conclusion ("the PCs are dust"). It could be to end a frustrating night where the PCs are doing everything wrong. It could be a deus ex machina to segue into an interesting plot next week. Rolling is simply for playing out the mechanics of the combat.
If I were to GM a Great Dragon, I'd do the appropriate stat checking and skill rolling, knowing full well the PCs are going to die. Not all GMs may be willing to do this. And sometimes, the PCs get lucky, I'll admit. I had a PC go up on a suicide run against a Force 20 Blood Spirit before in Astral combat, and he won. So who knows? But even to get to a face-to-face meeting with a Great Dragon would be a run in itself, and it will not end well.
Well, in response to the last few posts:
Tanka, you may not want to talk to me ever again, since i just was running SotF tonight, and i agree with them that Ghostwakler doesn't have to roll. That the PC dies.
And, there are not stats for a Great Dragon that make any sense. They are powerful beings. And i can uses Canon rules that can make a charecter that can almost take one starting. So, as far as i'm concerned, if walk into SK HQ carrying 2 HMGs, yelling "LOFWYR'S A PANSY!" over and over. You don't live. End of story. But, also, a Great Dragon isn't going to go out of his way to personally do something about you unless you, say see one flying overhead and shoot a missile at him. Otherwise, they will leave you alone.
anyway, just my opinion.
EDIT:
Oh, yeah. One more thing. once you give me the rules for dragons (especially great dragons) i'll use them to roll. I haven't seen any Canon rules for Thread magic in Shadowrun. In fact i only know of one mention of it (The section of SOTA: 2064 about Wiccans). And, you can't fairly (as is what you're talking about) run a great dragon when there are not rules for them.
Tanka, you may not want to talk to me ever again, since i just was running SotF tonight, and i agree with them that Ghostwakler doesn't have to roll. That the PC dies.
And, there are not stats for a Great Dragon that make any sense. They are powerful beings. And i can uses Canon rules that can make a charecter that can almost take one starting. So, as far as i'm concerned, if walk into SK HQ carrying 2 HMGs, yelling "LOFWYR'S A PANSY!" over and over. You don't live. End of story. But, also, a Great Dragon isn't going to go out of his way to personally do something about you unless you, say see one flying overhead and shoot a missile at him. Otherwise, they will leave you alone.
anyway, just my opinion.
EDIT:
Oh, yeah. One more thing. once you give me the rules for dragons (especially great dragons) i'll use them to roll. I haven't seen any Canon rules for Thread magic in Shadowrun. In fact i only know of one mention of it (The section of SOTA: 2064 about Wiccans). And, you can't fairly (as is what you're talking about) run a great dragon when there are not rules for them.
Okay, I really didn't want to get back into this firefight again, but...
| QUOTE |
| And i can uses Canon rules that can make a charecter that can almost take one starting. |
You gotta show me that. Really. A starting character taking down a GD? Even with the weakest stats possible for a GD... 
Well, if you can show me, I'll be impressed.
Well, if you can show me, I'll be impressed.
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc @ Mar 4 2005, 07:54 PM) |
| Erm i don't know if this will effect your number any But R3 on pg 56 says that Anti-Air missiles move at 5000 Meters per turn where as Anti-Suface Missiles (naval) move at 1000 Meters per turn. |
That sounds right. I saw comparable calculated speeds on the table, but I decided to use the slowest.
To give an idea of how fast this is I looked up the muzzle velocity of some RL pistols. The .357 magnum was listed as 1235 f/s, and the .44 magnum as 1180 f/s. I averaged to 1200 f/s which comes out to (1200*60*60/5280) 818 mph. This is about 1/3 the speed of the missiles we are using in the example.
So should spirits be able to see bullets and intercept them or be able to intercept missiles without some huge TN modifiers?
| QUOTE |
| Oh and a think a force 10 Slyph get 3 Actions per turn. Movement on it's Self, Movement on the Missile, PychoKennis "punch" the missile or what ever means to take your fancy. |
How are you getting that the Sylph gets 3 actions? Maybe per turn based on initiative, but I'm assuming the missile isn't fired until the last phase of the turn. So the Sylph would need 3 actions in a phase which no one gets.
If you want say the missile gets fired sooner, assume it isn't within detection range until the last phase. Or come up with means to detect it (like a rigger monitoring sensors on an eye in the sky drone) and calculate the actions/time needed to relay the information to the spirit.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Canon already supports that spirits block missiles with Immunity (YotC). |
I'm not familiar with exactly what you are getting at or how it works. Do you have a page number so I can look at the information?
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
How about explicit text in Survival of the Fittest that says something to the effect of "If PCs go up against Great Dragons, they are squashed, and the stats of the Great Dragons represent the weakest members"?
|
This quote is kind of my point. The GM isn't supposed to throw GDs at PCs, but if needed use the given stats. Which is what I'm trying to do. Then the author wants to jump to the same conclusion as others that PCs don't have a chance. Using the info they say to use, PCs do have a chance. Governments, policlubs and corporations should have way more than a chance, but for some reason that makes little sense to me, even they always fail.
Why? There has been no reasonable explanation for automatic dragon victory. This leaves unreasonable explanations and my honest wonderment if the authors and Rob just find dragons cool or are smitten with them or what? Actually the mere fact that dragons are cast as unbeatable should scare the rest of the inhabitants to join together to destroy them. Or help them destroy each other. Everything you and the authors want to say makes them special also makes them alien and feared. But somehow that alienation and fear doesn't come back to bite them. You fear it, you hate it, you try to destroy it.
| QUOTE (Chibu) |
| And i can uses Canon rules that can make a charecter that can almost take one starting. |
I call bullshit.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| Everything you and the authors want to say makes them special also makes them alien and feared. But somehow that alienation and fear doesn't come back to bite them. You fear it, you hate it, you try to destroy it. |
I don't know about you, but most folk that I know have a "Somebody else's problem" field activated around their head. They don't care whether or not a tyrant is in office or a terrorist bombs a city a hundred miles away... as long as it doesn't affect them, then they don't worry about it and go about their lives. When was the last time you got up and flew over to a country devastated by war or natural disaster? Or how about take down a tobacco company because they are killing thousands of people a year with their poison and getting rich from them? If it doesn't affect you, you don't care about it, and I'd say dragons and corporations fall squarely into that category.
I think most "governments and corporations and other big boys" that you stated are worried more about their own bottom line and agendas than to worry about whether or not to waste resources on a large lizard. Especially when the things being destroyed by dragons were "some airplane flight in some other country" or "that Middle Eastern city that no one really liked anyway".
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
I don't know about you, but most folk that I know have a "Somebody else's problem" field activated around their head. They don't care whether or not a tyrant is in office or a terrorist bombs a city a hundred miles away... as long as it doesn't affect them, then they don't worry about it and go about their lives. When was the last time you got up and flew over to a country devastated by war or natural disaster? Or how about take down a tobacco company because they are killing thousands of people a year with their poison and getting rich from them? If it doesn't affect you, you don't care about it, and I'd say dragons and corporations fall squarely into that category. I think most "governments and corporations and other big boys" that you stated are worried more about their own bottom line and agendas than to worry about whether or not to waste resources on a large lizard. Especially when the things being destroyed by dragons were "some airplane flight in some other country" or "that Middle Eastern city that no one really liked anyway". |
I don't buy it. Look at Pearl Harbor, the Alamo, the WTC destruction. It rallied the people. In the case of the WTC, enlistment shot up, donations poured in, there were people all over the country waiting several hours just to donate blood. Flags sprang up everywhere.
Why not mention Denver? That effected several coutries and corporations. They all got over it like it was nothing. You mention a history by these creatures that somehow gets ignored.
Look at the response to bug spirits. Weren't they actually helping people through Universal Brotherhood clinics? Was it as public as crap dragons get away with? Who even knew what was happening much less invoke your excuse of public apathy. Yet they get nuked, quarantined, and exterminated. I guess bugs aren't as loveable as dragons, and its harder to get around the concept of a regal, majestic dung beetle.
| QUOTE (Chibu) |
| Tanka, you may not want to talk to me ever again, since i just was running SotF tonight, and i agree with them that Ghostwakler doesn't have to roll. That the PC dies. |
Did you just throw Ghostwalker at them and say "Roll Initiative!"
Because if you did that and didn't roll a die, I'd walk out.
Now, sure, if the character says to the general vicinity that Ghostwalker is in "Your mother was a Horror and your father smelt of elderberries" and GW thinks he should just squash him and get it over with, fine. But I wanna see rolls to back up GW actually "laying the smack down."
It's like the old joking I do with friends at another forum where there's a D&D (gasp!) game going on. "Rocks fall you die." Cheap and rather retarded.
| QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 5 2005, 09:26 AM) |
| 818 mph. This is about 1/3 the speed of the missiles we are using in the example. So should spirits be able to see bullets and intercept them or be able to intercept missiles without some huge TN modifiers? |
Well Considering nowadays you can see Anti-air missiles coming at you, with just your normal eye balls, i should think a Sylph could. Fair enough that you get a warning to look via little flashing lights, but since the Sylph is already looking for said missiles.
| QUOTE | ||
How are you getting that the Sylph gets 3 actions? Maybe per turn based on initiative, but I'm assuming the missile isn't fired until the last phase of the turn. So the Sylph would need 3 actions in a phase which no one gets. |
Thought it was Force+Reaction+D6 ??
So yeah three actions per turn. Ans since PC's have to have there by turn speed averaged over the pass's of said turn then the missiles will as well. At least in by games
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc @ Mar 5 2005, 06:30 AM) |
| Thought it was Force+Reaction+D6 ?? So yeah three actions per turn. Ans since PC's have to have there by turn speed averaged over the pass's of said turn then the missiles will as well. At least in by games |
Situation one I previousely described:
Initiative 2X
Missile launched from 10km away
Spirit holds action
Initiative 1X
Missile about 6km awy
Spirit holds action or does whatever, still can't see 6 km away
Initiative X
Missile about 3 km away
Spirit may see missile, may start acting
Initiative 0
Missile arrives and detonates
Situation two (also previousely described)
Initiative 2X and 1X
Spirit does whatever
Initiative X
Missile fired within 3km (maybe far less)
Spirit can react to missile
Initiative 0
Missile arrives and detonates
Your example only works if the missile is fired in the first intiative pass that the spirit can act (if it winds up with 3 passes) and from close enough range to cause the spirit to react immediately.
Since missile don't explode until phase 0 of the turn, good tactics would be not to have them arrive early, or wait to fire them on the last pass.
At least this is how I see it according to the rules.
| QUOTE |
| I don't buy it. Look at Pearl Harbor, the Alamo, the WTC destruction. It rallied the people. In the case of the WTC, enlistment shot up, donations poured in, there were people all over the country waiting several hours just to donate blood. Flags sprang up everywhere. |
You're talking about ONE country there. I am pretty sure Iranians all were rallied against Aden when he flattened Teheran, and that Europe hated Sirrug's guts for downing that flight, but would you really think any UCAS, CAS or Japansese citizen would give a damn? IT was far awaqy, happened to people you'd either dislike or at least don't give a damn about. Some UCAS and CAS citizens might well likely have felt a certain degree of glee about Teheran's destruction; after all, bad luck and the dangers of the awakened workld would have finally hit the "right" people.
| QUOTE |
| Why not mention Denver? That effected several coutries and corporations. They all got over it like it was nothing. You mention a history by these creatures that somehow gets ignored. |
It mainly affected Aztlan (who noone likes, apparently); the other countries were bought off, and paid compensation for damages Ghostwalker caused. Hence, noone took serious action, though I would expect a few anti-dragon rotests and the occasional torching of Saeder-Krupp stores.
Canon actually states that dragons aren't all-popular with the general populace, anyway. Otherwise, it wouldn't be listed as one of Hestaby's main goals to
| QUOTE |
| 1. Destigmatize dragons in the public eye |
, now would it?
The text further elaborates:
The text further elaborates:
| QUOTE |
| Dragons get a bad rap in the media, not all of it undeserved. For Hestaby's vision of a future society to succeed, then dragonkind needs to be made more accessible and less threatening. Hestaby is trying to lead by example, carefully cultivating an image as an ethical and socially responsible philantropist and trying to acclimatize the opublic to her natural reptilian form. |
I'd think the main reason why not everyone is fighting the dragons is because the other players have a really hard time to come together and unite, and thus, have all settled for agreements with the GDs relevant in their region. Ultimately, that's more comfortable for everyone involved.
| QUOTE |
| Look at the response to bug spirits. Weren't they actually helping people through Universal Brotherhood clinics? Was it as public as crap dragons get away with? Who even knew what was happening much less invoke your excuse of public apathy. Yet they get nuked, quarantined, and exterminated. I guess bugs aren't as loveable as dragons, and its harder to get around the concept of a regal, majestic dung beetle. |
The problem is also that the powers-that-be cannot negotiate with them. It is possible to work out a settlement that more or less maintains both sides' interests with a Great Dragon. It is impossible if all the bugs can say is "we are Invae, you will be assimilated". They weren't cooperative, and thus, they now face Firewatch and similar organisations whereever they are noticed.
| QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 6 2005, 12:17 AM) |
| Situation two (also previousely described) Initiative 2X and 1X Spirit does whatever Initiative X Missile fired within 3km (maybe far less) Spirit can react to missile Initiative 0 Missile arrives and detonates Your example only works if the missile is fired in the first intiative pass that the spirit can act (if it winds up with 3 passes) and from close enough range to cause the spirit to react immediately. |
As for situation #2, you'd have to have people that are firing the missile that have both unusually high initiatives (compared to the average human) and split second timing (holding thir first action(s) and making metagame use of the quirks of the initiative system) to do this effectively. Most people that would man the missile sites would only have 1 action per turn, which would then occur during the first phase.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| 2Situation one I previousely described: Initiative 2X Missile launched from 10km away Spirit holds action Initiative 1X Missile about 6km awy Spirit holds action or does whatever, still can't see 6 km away Initiative X Missile about 3 km away Spirit may see missile, may start acting Initiative 0 Missile arrives and detonates Situation two (also previousely described) Initiative 2X and 1X Spirit does whatever Initiative X Missile fired within 3km (maybe far less) Spirit can react to missile Initiative 0 Missile arrives and detonates |
hmm.... no.
As Fortune said, you need to be metagaming for your example 2 to work.
As for 1...
Initiative 2x
Missile launched from 10k away
Spirit holds action (let's assume it can't detect the missile launch now)
Initiative 1x
Missile 7.5k away (remember, this is a FAST missile that can only go 5000 mpt, and it started at 10k)
Spirit keeps zipping around it's master, merrily looking for oncoming rocket-propelled death.
Initiative x
missile 5k away
spirit get's an eyeful (or whatever they really use to see) of the missile and thinks "Hey! That looks like what GW was describing, I guess I should stop it!)
New Turn
Initiative 2x
Missile moves closer, will arrive on phase 0. let's assume it moves 2k in this phase.
Spirit uses movement power on missile 'cause it's coming on REAL fast, and it wants the extra time to be able to get in its way and stop it. Missile is slowed to 500mpt (making the assumption that the speed is just divided, which actually miffs me a bit), will not reach the spirit OR GW for SEVERAL turns now.
Right. That spirit's gonna intercept that missile no matter what. If it's launched from 3k away without metagaming, under your assumption that the spirit notices it at 3k, it's going to be noticed right after it launches, and then it will have movement used on it and STILL take a couple turns to get there. Plenty of time.
| QUOTE (tanka) | ||
Did you just throw Ghostwalker at them and say "Roll Initiative!" Because if you did that and didn't roll a die, I'd walk out. Now, sure, if the character says to the general vicinity that Ghostwalker is in "Your mother was a Horror and your father smelt of elderberries" and GW thinks he should just squash him and get it over with, fine. But I wanna see rolls to back up GW actually "laying the smack down." It's like the old joking I do with friends at another forum where there's a D&D (gasp!) game going on. "Rocks fall you die." Cheap and rather retarded. |
Your examples are totally different from each other. "Rocks fall and you die" is a random event that doesn't have anything to do with the player - hence really bad GMing and I would be really angry at the GM who did it to me. Shouting at GW that his mother was a horror, etc or attacking him or whatever is a player begging for a quick death. I would have no problem squishing any player who made that choice without any die rolls at all - because it was his or her choice. The player knows what they're doing, that they're going up against a force of nature, no different than if a character jumped out of a sub-orbital without a parachute (and with no spells and elementals to help). I don't want to bother with the die rolls, because the rules just aren't equipped to adjudicate such situations. At the end of the day, I guess it just comes down to different GMing styles.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| though I would expect a few anti-dragon rotests and the occasional torching of Saeder-Krupp stores. |
At the same time, the Cult of the Dragon is running around claiming Gee Dubya as "Dunkelzahn reborn".
Slightly different point but still to do with Dragons, has anyone played a dragon shaman? I am thinking of creating one, and have never known anyone play one before.
So I don't really know where to begin, apparat form the fact that you get extra dice for manipulation spells? I don't have mits with me at the moment so I can't check!
torz x
So I don't really know where to begin, apparat form the fact that you get extra dice for manipulation spells? I don't have mits with me at the moment so I can't check!
torz x
| QUOTE (Prospero @ Mar 5 2005, 02:31 PM) | ||||
Your examples are totally different from each other. "Rocks fall and you die" is a random event that doesn't have anything to do with the player - hence really bad GMing and I would be really angry at the GM who did it to me. Shouting at GW that his mother was a horror, etc or attacking him or whatever is a player begging for a quick death. I would have no problem squishing any player who made that choice without any die rolls at all - because it was his or her choice. The player knows what they're doing, that they're going up against a force of nature, no different than if a character jumped out of a sub-orbital without a parachute (and with no spells and elementals to help). I don't want to bother with the die rolls, because the rules just aren't equipped to adjudicate such situations. At the end of the day, I guess it just comes down to different GMing styles. |
Jumping out of a suborbital without a parachute (and other relevent stuff)..
Hrm. If I had enough air to survive until impact, I'd be a little annoyed about it. Not much, but a little. I mean, it's only 8 successes at some obscene target number to stage to nothing.. so, I'd want some roll. Maybe by spending enough karma on rerolls it could be made and the character just breaks every titanium-laced bone in his/her legs and paralyzes him/herself. I wouldn't be very annoyed because I wouldn't believe it without TN 50 or 60, but I'd want to try anyway. Just because, it's vaguely possible.
Now.. if I didn't have the air supply? Not going to bother.
There's a VERY major difference between something that is certain death because of a single thing, and certain death because of continual events/continuous events -- such as, lack of air, being dropped in a wood chipper, having your feet encased in cement and being dropped off a bridge.. All of those, it's NOT possible to survive, just to die slower from, and even then, there's a threshold to how long you can last.. some it's a long one (time holding breath + 6 minutes for oxygen deprivation.. hours with drowning in freezing water.. um.. maybe a few seconds with the wood chipper
)Ghostwalker/A Great Dragon? That's different. The odds are about as infinitesimal, but, they aren't certain, the rolls should be made, just because even Great Dragons can have atrocious days and just do badly. Justify it how you want -- Dragon Flu, Late Late night with a dragon of the opposite sex, whatever, but they can, potentially, goof up. Shoot, if they're on the ground, they could get their tail stuck at the wrong time and be totally distracted when everyone opens up with every weapon and spell in the arsenal. It's Incredibly unlikely, but it can happen.
Now, I expect that the dragon would survive that, and the party would die for it, but, it's a lot different from 'ok, you just pissed off the dragon. Go burn your character sheets'. They've managed to scratch it. Maybe that's enough to impress it -- it might decide to keep them around because they've impressed it. It might choose to keep them and send them after dragons that annoy it, but it doesn't feel like killing. Or it might just pick them up by the head and pull off their limbs. It's a dragon, we don't know how it thinks.
Edit: About the situations that I wouldn't be ticked about dying without rolls... I would, on the other hand, be ticked if one of them just happened, and I didn't get rolls to avoid it. But if the avoidance failed, dying doesn't bother me. And if I'm playing someone stupid enough to jump out of a sub-orbital with no oxygen and no 'chute, then it would been a conscious suicide attempt (and I'd probably be annoyed if the DM saved the character)
i guess, if a player really bitched, i'd allow them to make some die rolls. the first roll would be to resist the 15-die 10D manabolt that slams them as soon as they make their first move. anchoring is fun!
That wouldn't bother me
Now.. it might bring about the strong desire to make a mage and cast spells like that, but hey, if you don't have a goal, where's the fun?
Now.. it might bring about the strong desire to make a mage and cast spells like that, but hey, if you don't have a goal, where's the fun?
| QUOTE (Sharaloth) |
| hmm.... no. As Fortune said, you need to be metagaming for your example 2 to work. |
Hmm...no.
Initiative 2X
PC fires Missile
Initiative 1X
PC readies Missile
Initiative X
PC fires Missile
Initiative 0
2 Missiles detonate
| QUOTE |
| As for 1... Initiative 2x Missile launched from 10k away Spirit holds action (let's assume it can't detect the missile launch now) Initiative 1x Missile 7.5k away (remember, this is a FAST missile that can only go 5000 mpt, and it started at 10k) Spirit keeps zipping around it's master, merrily looking for oncoming rocket-propelled death. Initiative x missile 5k away spirit get's an eyeful (or whatever they really use to see) of the missile and thinks "Hey! That looks like what GW was describing, I guess I should stop it!) New Turn |
Uhm... no.
You forgot about Phase 0 before rolling initiative for new turn. You know... the one where things go boom.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| You're talking about ONE country there. I am pretty sure Iranians all were rallied against Aden when he flattened Teheran, and that Europe hated Sirrug's guts for downing that flight, but would you really think any UCAS, CAS or Japansese citizen would give a damn? IT was far awaqy, happened to people you'd either dislike or at least don't give a damn about. Some UCAS and CAS citizens might well likely have felt a certain degree of glee about Teheran's destruction; after all, bad luck and the dangers of the awakened workld would have finally hit the "right" people. |
Right, that's why maybe they weren't immediately hunted down. But each instance is effecting another slice of the globe. Sooner or later people should be saying, "Are we next? Look they did it to them and them and them and ..."
Did the world Immediately jump in when Hitler started invading countries? No they didn't get worried until he just kept on doing it and had occupied most of Europe. I guess people that learn nothing from history are doomed to repeat it.
| QUOTE | ||
It mainly affected Aztlan (who noone likes, apparently); the other countries were bought off, and paid compensation for damages Ghostwalker caused. Hence, noone took serious action, though I would expect a few anti-dragon rotests and the occasional torching of Saeder-Krupp stores. |
The reconciliation happened way after the attacks, what made everyone hold their fire? Did they know he was going to make compensation? Why would they even guess that while he is still rampaging? This came on the heels of the most beloved dragon being destroyed by what appears to be this same dragon rampaging Denver. How is this not seen a some wild, rogue, evil dragon? How does that make people less inclined to kill this dangerous murderer?
Saying it was mostly against Aztlan is bogus too. It is another dragon attack in a series of dragon attacks. And it could be looked upon as the first 2 hits (UCAS president, now Aztlan) to take over an entire continent. Aren't those 2 powers arguably the most powerful countries on the continent? The littler guys should have seen them selves as the next logical targets. But everyone pretty much held their fire.
| QUOTE | ||
The problem is also that the powers-that-be cannot negotiate with them. It is possible to work out a settlement that more or less maintains both sides' interests with a Great Dragon. It is impossible if all the bugs can say is "we are Invae, you will be assimilated". They weren't cooperative, and thus, they now face Firewatch and similar organisations whereever they are noticed. |
How is the dragon message that much different. "Puny humans, we will take all we want."
The bugs weren't given a chance to say anything. They were discovered and destroyed. Why couldn't they negotiate? Here is one - we'll let you have the dregs of society that we don't care about any way. You seem to improve their ability to be productive for us and it eliminates them as a burden to society, and it really cleans up an eyesore. Working out an "agreement" with the bugs is about as likely as negotiating agreements with ghouls. Oh yeah, that happened.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i guess, if a player really bitched, i'd allow them to make some die rolls. the first roll would be to resist the 15-die 10D manabolt that slams them as soon as they make their first move. anchoring is fun! |
I'm just going to assume you weren't really thinking when you made such a stupid suggestion. Or, unlikely, that you were totally ignorant of how magic works. Or that you were using this mysterious dragon magic to get it to work, but then why roll?
To refute your claim this is a good tactic, either the spell doesn't go off and the dragon resists 5D drain from the spell and perhaps wastes an action activating the focus, or the spell goes of and the focus resists 10D damage and the dragon resists 5D drain. Magic is not intelligent, the spell has no way to determine a target so it would not target the player. He is in another dimension anyway. It would not even target his PC.
Anchoring pretty much sucks.
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