Okay, you obviously missed the point of that.

Missiles detonate in phase 0, right? So, for your example, with the missile being fired from 10k away, and travelling at a rate of 5000mpt, this is how it would go in one phase

2x: Missile fired
0 phase: missile blows up.... 5km from the target.

That's just dumb.

The missile's gotta travel the whole 10k to the target (our city-wreckin' dragon friend), before you want it to go boom. That means 2 (count 'em TWO) combat turns. phase 0 of turn one means NOTHING in this example.

Now as to firing off two of these nasties in one turn, sure, that might work. the first'd be intercepted (as is obvious, and I notice you didn't contradict), and the second, well... you'd better hope that spirit isn't either holding it's last action (it's got the time, since the first missile, fired from 3k away, will take a couple turns in getting there, if it gets there at all), or has a slightly lower initiative score than you, otherwise it Movements the second missile down the same way it did the first, and knocks them both out with no trouble at all.

Now, if you're thinking MAN PORTABLE missiles here, that's a different story, but as I remember DotSW saying, a Dragon can just flame one of those into nonexistance, and even if it doesn't, anything less than an AV missile won't even scratch 'em.

Dawnshadow: Definately with the GD being possibly impressed, etc. I don't think many dragons just kill anything/body indiscriminately. They're much smarter than that. They only kill when it has the maximum effect (i.e. Celedyr sending HKB person's gnawed bones to the HKB offices, or similar) or when they have to. The GD might just laugh and swat the player a few meters away with a tail swipe and leave it at that. Or hire them for a job. Or whatever. That's fine. I'm not saying that GDs should kill everyone for no good reason. But if they did want to kill the PCs (and I would give my players a very good, obvious warning before they got into a situation where a GD would want to kill them and be immediatly able to), I wouldn't roll. That'd be it. Jelly. I guess it comes down to GMing styles, like I said before.

As for other auto-death situations, I would be a horrible GM if I led players into them without allowing them the rolls to get out. Of course they get rolls to get out. And fair warning before said rolls that they are getting into a situation where their chars could just die if they mess it up, no die rolls allowed. But if they go into the situation, knowing full well that x and y die rolls are all that separate them from death... how much different is that from a normal run, really? The roll that separates you from certain death is athletics to hang onto a wheel strut vs. body to soak damage from the sec guards hmg.

yes. because combat sense isn't a detection spell, and therefore can't be linked to an anchoring focus to determine whether or not the owner of the focus is being attacked.

oh, wait, it can!

wait a minute . . . what?

Okay, what are you talking about? That spell should go off without a hitch.

Anchored Manabolt 10, set on Deadly, with, 15 dice to its name. Linked to a detection spell set to 'detect someone attacking dragon'. Dumbass PC attacks dragon, anchored detection spell reads positive and links to the PC, Manabolt zaps PC into the grave.

They can do this, read up on it in MitS, pgs 44-45, 70-72.

Two missles wouldn't be hard - the spirit just uses movement/psychokinesis to make sure they hit each other.

My feelings exactly.

All NPCs have stats. Always. Stats represent the physical and mental abilities, the skills, and so on. If it exists in the world, then it MUST have stats. No stats? It doesn't exist in the world (no body, no strength, no quickness.. not 0, but nonexistant.) It has no mind -- like a rock. It can't learn skills -- how do you figure out the cost of skills? They're relevent to STAT. No stat? They're relative to nonexistant? That's like divide by zero. Undefined stuff.

If they aren't in the books, that's because it's impossible to set it up so that an ultimate NPC is ultimate in every campaign.

High powered high karma campaign?
Might be triple the listed GD stats, with 400 karma pool and 30 initiate grades.

Low power, low karma campaign?
Might be the listed stats with only 50 karma pool and 10 initiate grades.

As per canon, SR Comp p84, Ultimate NPCs "are so powerful that they don't need game statistics." Ultimate NPCs "do not need Karma Pools per se - just keep rolling dice until they succeed. That's why they are called Ultimate."

Your Ultimate are not canon. Did you just try to out-canon me?

I'm not quite sure what timeline you are using here.

The same day that Ghostwalker started his rampage, Daviar, in her capacity as VP of the UCAS was in Denver. Negotiations follow. Three days later (doesn't equate to 'way after'), the other non-Aztlan Denverites came to an agreement with the Great Dragon.

As for him appearing 'on the heels of' the Dunkelzahn assasination, Ghostwalker came through the rift over four years after the event. Why would anyone (other than you) automatically assume that he had any hand in the assassination?

The fact that GW appears very similar to the most-beloved Great Dragon may also have influenced a lot of people at the time.

Actually.. it was logic Not a lookup of rules.

The reasoning behind it:

By that definition, any of the Ultimate NPCs could stand in the middle of the Sahara with every single nation pointing every single weapon in their arsonals at them... fire at the same time.. and the NPC survives, doing nothing but soak.

Orbital weapons, cruise missiles, nukes, chemical weapons.. the entire arsenal of the 1st World Nations, and Megacorps.

Doesn't that sound just a little crazy?

But, that's what 'just keep rolling dice until they succeed' means...

Capt Dave: Always fun. I'd want to know what the body looked like after.. Maybe all the metal in the Sam fused together at once, or was torn out?

Sure you do. Doesn't mean you're right, but you can try to your hearts content!

It's always better to be consistent throughout.

Besides, the two aren't created in a vacuum. A roleplay does depend on the game system. How would you build and roleplay Bowen (from Dragonheart), in SR? I mean.. he slaughtered dragons, and he was just a knight.

Note: 'The reason Dragon X required a toothpick' is not a valid answer, although probably most accurate, because Bowen WON.

Heaven only knows. Maybe Harlequin, with his unique brand of magic, knows a way to target cyberware with the Animate spell. "Dance, cyberware, dance!"

In essence, it's a different type of game system. Bowen would fit easier into the D20 (or even better the older D&D) rules than he would into Shadowrun.

I do think labeling him 'just a knight' is misleading though.

And as has been said, killing normal Dragons is incomparable to slaughtering the Great Dragons of Shadowun fame.

Why do I get images of Micheal Jackson doing the dance of death and everyone doing it with him?

That's a though for you... what if MJ's an Immortal Elf and a GD/IE was trying to set him up with all those "allegations"?

By the way, all those nukes, orbital weapons, etc are ultimate weapons too, those things get to roll dice after dice of damage while the ultimate NPC can roll dice after dice of soak...

it's not possible to be consistent throughout. if you give something stats in any game, someone will kill it. if you want it to be possible to kill Ghostwalker in your campaign, you're not playing SR as the game designers meant it to be played. therefore, it's your responsibility to come up with the stats, just as it's your responsibility to determine the aftermath. it is no more the responsibility of the game designers to support your aberrant style of play than it is their responsibility to include rules for making winged elves for those few who want to play them in SR.

SR is a coloring book, and you're coloring outside the lines. that's fine--that's your prerogative, it's your game. hell, i do it all the time. but it's not the job of the game designers to redraw the lines to match where you're coloring. (now, if everybody starts coloring outside the lines in the same way, then it is the job of the game designers to oblige them--because if they don't, someone else will, and the game designers won't have a job anymore.)

That's why all the plastic surgery! To protect his identity! The location of TT in Oregon in the books is just a smokescreen - the real Tir Tairngire will start with the Neverland Ranch!

Come to think of it, I wonder what has happened to the Neverland ranch in SR. Maybe some corp bought it? Shiwase, since they've been around the longest?

I didn't misunderstand what you were saying (I also didn't mix data too get the results I needed.) Someone, probably you, suggested earlier that R3 says missiles travel at 5000kph. I said that was close to some of the speeds I saw in the table I made my calculations from. But I said I would use the slower speed to give the dragon/spirit a better chance, to try to be more than fair. You inserted your speed into my example. If we want to use your speed, I'll use different distances to get it to arrive at the same phase as my example.

I didn't contradict the first because the point was moot as I have explained above.

What last action? Oh yeah when it is taking 2 turns. You don't get 2 turns, so there is no held action.

Since you brought this further variable into play, ok, the dragon needs to take an action to just flame one of those into nonexistance. That was one of my earlier points - dragons don't get unlimited actions per phase.

Once again, I will assume you were not actually thinking when you made such a stupid suggestion.

Combat Sense successes add to combat pool, they have nothing to do with spell targeting. You are right (though you did not realize it since I am sure you were being sarcastic) but if linked to an anchoring focus they won't tell the owner (not even the target of the spell) of the focusthey are being attacked. They may give dice to defend against such an attack but surely will not direct any spell toward anyone.

no, wait, it still can not!

Ah, now we are linking some detection spells to target the spell. That changes the example. Before the spell would target the focus or the person holding the anchor. And really I would have assumed this to be the case that the dragon would be smart enough not to blow himself up that easily. Just after reading the asinine, combat sense, mfb example made me respond in similar stupid fashion.

But PCs will probably figure the dragon has some anchored defenses with appropriate detection spells. This was one of my suggestions from a previous thread (may have stated it here) to let the dragon kill itself by intentionally tripping these anchors again and again. It needs to resist drain from the detection spell and the combat spell every time. It will burn through karma pool and sooner or later it is going to take drain. Of course, someone got the drift and decided to use a sensible force spell instead of a force 20 or 30 high drain spell.

Since the dragon is probably not going to be taken down by offensive magic, have the spellcasters cast mana static (in a sustaining focus), use spell defense and shielding, have the spirits use conceal, and get one of those adepts if at all possible with his virtuoso piece. In other words, raise the TN for the anchored spell (no dragon bonus's) to actually damage the PCs.

I was really using the timeline of an action taking 3 seconds. I guess you were letting Daviar use response times similar to Lone Star's. Three days in contrast to 3 second turns is forever.

And I did have the timeline messed up. Thanks for correcting me.

But one dragon goes in, another comes out, could easily let people conclude GW was responsible for Dunkies demise.

I can guarantee you, when Harlequin, Ehran, and the players are all together and the IE start their fight, several groups of players have attacked one or the other IE. I've had it happen, and I've heard other people say it happened when they ran the adventure.

I didn't kill the PCs, but I made it clear they were out of their league.

Which brings this to mind: why would the average PC know dragons are Ultimate NPCs? If they don't have an appropriate skill, why would they? What if they have a skill in some other game where dragons can be killed in a tough fight? Because the players should know better? Maybe, but that is poor roleplaying. What if you have new players? What if they only know about rpgs from that other game?

I bring this up because my players (me either really before reading the adventure) had no idea about immortal elves and their superior power. They got to the final confrontation and wanted to kill the guy that they had been running against/the guy attacking their paycheck (those were the loyal ones) and some wanted to attack H for putting them through hell for a silly ritual.

Did you post to the correct thread?

No one has been talking about pure roleplaying. Combat isn't a pure roleplay element of SR. And we have also been discussing the improbability of some of what dragons have gotten away with.

People keep making fun of Weredigo's version of SR, but if these dragon actions happened on his board (I had to say it:)), would anyone let it go? Say he has some sea dragon take over Seattle (or Boston, NY, LA, any major coastal city), does anyone bat an eye?

Glad to see someone come forward to say it would be unlikely to happen in other cities.

The unique situation of Denver though makes me think it would be even harder. There are several nations represented with a military presence. Most cities don't have sensors guarding their borders, helping track a threat. Most cities aren't a mecca for smugglers supposedly using Tbirds. I'm assuming they have a large stock of weapons capable of bringing down A Tbird. Just think about Denver's situation and what was likely to be present.

You do have a point that Ghostwalker could have tried exploiting the borders within the city, hitting one sector then fleeing to another and hitting it, etc. always coming back to the Aztlan sector if people want to say he focused damage there. But I'm thinking whoever is in command of sector he just hit is contacting whatever sector he fled to and telling them they are in pursuit. The one currently getting hit, might deny entry until they realize they could use some help. Eventually, all the sectors should have been hunting GW,or waiting with plenty of firepower for him to take another whack at them.

I love how every body assume something was not being played right just because the character all had a rough time of it, rather than dying. As a matter of fact Leon did play the GD as intended, Dragons of the Sixth world was not in our part of the globe yet. Heck 3rd edition wasn't out yet. We were playing 2nd edition back then. The GD was just a beginner, so it wasn't all powerful. Still it was tough and we killed it and the guards, so that counts. Of course I forgot to mention the claymore mines, but hey you don't get all the secrets for free.

Same stuff can go today if you remember that the GD can't do anything until his first action so all that Karma pool is useless if you got a bad enough gun. Not only that but if you are using Smartlinked weapons so he makes you reroll every 2+ you get just as many next roll. Now who's dumb?


BTW for those of you who forget this is a game meant to be fun for the GM and Players. It's not GM versus Players. Nor is it GM kills PC's. It's GM and Players telling a story. If the story says the GD dies after a horrible fight, he dies after a horrible fight.

I am hardly worked up about it. I guess the reason you are calling me names is the multiple posts in a row. That is because they are more than 10 posts back and I can't easily access them to respond. They get buried more than 10 posts deep because I have other things to do to pass my time. Hardly worked up.

I think your explanation for using the combat sense spell is silly. Notice I didn't say stupid this time. No GM I have played for would allow it to 1) do more than add combat pool dice, 2) act as a multi-detect-everything spell, 3) act as a multi-target-everything spell.

They wouldn't because that is about the most munchkin idea I have seen come from anyone, much less someone who claims to play according to canon. They would not allow it to replace an infinite number of detection spells you could burn karma on and actually learn. I think adding combat pool dice is a nice enough bonus to make the spell worthwhile.

From watching TV, maybe? Ghostwalker effectively takes over Denver. That, to me, seems like a pretty Ultimate being.

I was going to ask about Denver, we did a run a few weeks back which touched on Denver. I did not know much about the history there apart from the fact that a dragon came out of the rift and is now running the place. Call me nieve but I would like to find out more about what happened and what really happened rather than people telling me what they think (in my group). Which book would i find that in? Or can anyone give me a summary of what happened as I Know we will be going back.

Thanks

torz x

You know, all this dying for the people and reincarnating thing might remind people of another quite popular figure who died in a rather spectacular way and then returned after some time ... some 2062 years ago.

Especially since Dunkie and Ghostwalker look quite similar, at least on first glance. I may remember wrong (I sold YotC a while ago), but wasn't there a period of some confusion about Ghostwalker actually *being* a reincarnated Dunkelzahn, before he explained himself to the public?

It all really comes down to how the Media covers such creatures. The Invae get all kinds of really bad press, not only because they don't even bother to negotiate and make a settlement and just abdict and turn people, but also because they have no popular faces to speak for them (like dragons do, who usually have some sort of celibrity - pretty females, most of the time - being their "ambassadors". See Dunkie and Holly Brighton). Additionally, dragons at least in a way contribute to human society, pumping wealth into the economy, employing people and (in some cases, like with Hestaby, Dunke, or Masaru) making themselves champions of popular causes, be that American restoration, environmentalism or Phillipino liberation.

The reason why dragons don't have the atrocious reputation Invae have is just because dragons care to cultiveate a somewhat better image in the media, though their ruthlessness also surely doesn't make them everyone's darlings - Dunkie was a special case in a special land, most countries wouldn't be likely to elect a Great for their president.

Plus, they can buy people off to at least cover up whatever bad deeds they have done by paying them money. Invae cannot.

I had a response I was going to make to it, but, I've decided against spending the time arguing against an entrenched position, regardless of my personal feelings about it. I don't need the headache.

Although I am curious.. I thought SURGE could give pretty much anything?

No thats was me

There's no need as it was proven that the spirit has plenty of time.

How? You've said you've used a slow missile, at a distance of 10K, using a faster missile only helps prove your side of the argument, but as it was shown it didn't.

As mention in SR3, All movement is divided by the number of phase's in that turn, when it comes to movement. Though it is referencing PC's in that paragraph you should apply it as otherwise if you make per phase the faster the Slyph goes the faster the missile will end up going faster.

How cos i didn't see it.

Why not? Even if it's moving faster (As shown that it is) it still takes till the end of the second turn to travel the 10K distance to the target