NAN, Are they possible? Options

[Luca]

As an European I have always wondered how the Ghost Dance was possible.
Personally, I`m a bit sceptic about that.
I mean, I can pretty understand that catastrophes & magic power (and the relative "lack of magic" for the anglos) can destroy a nation (the usa) but to build up new nations you need people.
I understand that in many NAN old Anglos converted to Native American lifestyles or simply lived together with Indians in their old cities but, at the end of the day, you still need A LOT of native americans to be around.
So, the core of my question is: how is it possible?
I`m a European so I do not know anything about the percentage of Native Americans still around in USA but, from the little information I have, they are not so many.
Can anyone tell me if I`m wrong?
Can anyone give me some better ideas of how many Americans are now (March 2005!!!) not of European/Asian/African descent but have Native AMerican blood in their veins???

[DrJest]

I don't have the figures (British myself) but I do seem to recall that the populations got skewed; there was an American president (jarman?) who was way racist and confined all the Amerinds to concentration camps; ironically that meant they got skipped by the worst of VITAS et al, so their post-apocalypse population level was a greater percentage than the pre-apocalypse one.

[Critias]

According to this, there aren't very many American Indians, no. Nor are there likely to be. But, well, anyone that's studied history can say the same thing.

It's always been one of the weakest points of their gritty future, to me -- such an amazingly large amount of land handed over to so very very few people, coupled by the fact those few people don't all revert to their neo-trendy ancient nomadic lifestyle, they instead just squat in the gutted remains of the cities they inherited, for the most part trying to live just like the people they kicked out (only living just like them with a little face paint on). They supposedly maintain modern armies, etc, etc, all with a fraction of a fraction of the overall head count.

[Slacker]

For the most part, there is a very low percentage of American Indians in the us. However there are certain areas where there are still large concentrations. Take a look at this map from the census bureau that shows some regions, especiallly in alaska to have 60% or more native americans: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/mapGallery/i...ricanindian.jpg

[hermit]

The number of pure-blood - or at least 75% pure blood - natives in the states is dwindling, but if the NAN adopted a policy like the Nazis did to what made a Jew - third-degree relation, meaning one jewish grandparent makes you a jew, then a whole lot of Americans suddenly become Natives. And except for the really hardcore Natives, I'd guess most would accept that approach, if only to have some population - and some educated people - for their newly formed NAN.

Not to mention that Jarman might have taken a similar approach as to who would end up in one of his concentration camps (a part opf UCAS history I see way undervalued, given the background count Nazi death camps have), making those people suddenly associate with their native heritage much the same way western Europe's (mostly assimilated) Nazi-defined Jews rediscoveered their jewishness after the Nazis' excesses.

Also, a ritual called Great Ghost Dance is regularily performed by some disgruntled natives in one of the poor, casino-less reservations, so they already are familiar with the basic idea.

As for the lack of magic among non-native Americans ... well, unless we assume that magic, as such, has a bias against christianity-based shamanic/idolic approaches, I see there's plenty of people performing rituals that could, in the world of SR, be considered to belong to a more intuitive approach of magic. If singing a song to racoon will make a spell, I don't see why a prayer to god won't do the same. But that's just me.

[mfb]

my theory has always been that amerindian genes are more strongly linked to magical ability than, say, anglo-saxon genes; them thar injuns are born with better magic than us white folk. this works both ways: with the return of magic, amerind genes were made more dominant. this line of reasoning is certain to boil the braincells of anybody versed in genetics, but hell--it's magic.

the end result is, more people looked like injuns after 2011. when the amerinds began to rise to power, many of them saw the writing on the wall and proclaimed themselves 1/16 cheyenne, or whatever; with the breakup of the US, hundreds of thousands of records slipped between the cracks, and the new injun nations probably weren't looking too closely at birth records anyway. thus, you get lots and lots of injuns, where none existed before.

[DrJest]

That's devious, evil, malicious, manipulative... In short, great SR.

[hermit]

[DrJest]

Oh, I almost forgot - Daniel Howling Coyote was taught the Great Ghost Dance by someone else. I think it's mentioned in passing in the Aztlan sourcebook by the various "spectators"; one of them wonders who taught him, but nobody raises their hand to it.

[hermit]

Someone interested in the Horrors getting into the world before the world can prepare. My money's on Aina's little half-horror bastard.

[Dog]

Great idea, mfb. Mind if I take it a step farther?
Say mana does favor the genes of one race over another, but which race it favors depends on the area. ie: If you're half aboriginal and half Italian, and you're born in Denver, your aboriginal genes will have the magic backing to be dominant. If the same guy had been born in Europe, he'd appear more Italian. If he was born in New Zealand, I dunno. Maybe that's why Italians look Italian.
As for the way things are around here in my part of the real world, whether or not you're considered aboriginal depends largely on whether or not you say you are. There's enough genetic integration going on that lots of people you just can't tell. So the factionalization would be more of a principle thing for most people. Do I stand up to the man and proclaim that part of my heritage, or jump on the bandwagon and save my own ass? Could be possible, you know, except for the magic and stuff.

[Fortune]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

"Someone else" being Thais.

Also, in covering their asses halfway instead of rewriting a history most current SR players know little about (PCC, though, isn't quite as batshit fucking crazy as it is in NAN v1), SoNA also mentioned that because Aztlan was a part of the NAN (How? Why? This is why I think Nigel Findley is incredibly overrated as an author) that anyone who was Hispanic (apparently everything south of the U.S.=Mexican) qualified as "Indians" and didn't have to leave. And, frankly, I can't imagine why they'd want to.

But then that brings us to this tidbit: If that was true, Mexicans would outnumber Pueblos in PCC by about 5-to-1. Which makes the entire premise of PCC, well, let's use an appropriate word, shall we? How about... Retarded?

[mfb]

[hahnsoo]

Bah, we Asians have the market cornered on magic, so nyeah.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Hmm... drunk Irishmen having magic, drunk pre-colonial Americans having magic...

The key isn't genetic, it's booze!!!

[hahnsoo]

And to think, all those years the Anglos were selling the key to magic to the Native Americans...

[torzzzzz]

[Sandoval Smith]

[Demonseed Elite]

Census numbers-wise, it's not really possible, no. I mean, if you look at the populations of the NAN nation-states, they are grossly larger than even a generous projection of current Native American population.

One way I've gotten around it in my own head is reasoning that the NAN widely accepted Hispanics, not considering them "Anglo" for the most part. Since Hispanics have a much larger population and is the fastest growing population in the United States, it gives a lot more leeway.

mfb's idea is interesting. I'd never really thought of anything like that, but it could explain some of the oddly skewed populations in the Sixth World.

[Method]

[Kanada Ten]

I think Aztlan left the NAN over the STC's censuring their treatment of native Mexicans.

This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Mar 8 2005, 01:03 AM

[FrostyNSO]

[Fortune]

Uh huh!

[Mortax]

I just always assumed Coyote taught him the dance. :-) He is both the great magician and the Trickster. Or possibly the Passion (from ED) that was the Trickster. :-)

Danial was a Coyote shaman. :-)

Or, I could just be pulling legs. :-)