Shamans sustaining spells, Too debilitating? Options

[Crusher Bob]

[Cray74]

[Edward]

It is harsh but I don’t think it is to harsh.

If you reworked it only to reduse spell pool I would be running around with 3 sustained spells all the time.

I often take focused concentration and/or several sustaining focuses at character generation. Usually just armour and reflexes. Later I pick up levitate and maybe others. Mostly I don’t sustain a spell while trying to do anything that needs a roll. I never have a problem with it, but then I remember to consider that penalty when deciding what spells to have active. Sustaining foci are not that expensive, 200,000 will by you the necessities and if you want to use buff spells in SR then yes, you will need them.

As to elementals, an elemental to sustain your force 4 armor spell will cost 4000 to summon, a starting character will on average have 3 successes on the conjuring test that is more than 1000 nuyen per casting. And the elemental has to follow you around adding to the risk of detection by astral security, especially if you have masking.

If your concerned about the cost of elementals or getting new foci in game ask your GM at character creation how much he expects to be paying you. This is an important point because if you design a character that believes he is worth 20,000+ to bother taking a job your going to have a problem when the GM sets up runs that only net 5k. You also have a problem if you design a starting runner with little experience if the GM sets runs worth 20-30K if you have never been offered that much you may decide this is to rich for my blood I’m better of dumpster diving this month.

And just so you know I have played characters that would rather sleep on the street than part with there foci, mostly because with there foci they can survive on the street. Without going to there apartment is asking to be robed.

Edward

[tisoz]

Elementals can only sustain a spell for a number of turns equal to their force. So a Force 6 elemental can sustain it for 18 seconds, then disappear. Or you bind it to the spell and it has its force reduced by a point a day, and as I read things, it can't provide other services. This seems more expensive than just getting a focus.

[Mr.Cato]

[tisoz]

[mintcar]

When you get better you are able to handle bigger target numbers, you don´t get smaller target numbers because you get better.


Continue arguing this with us. I´m serious. It takes a lot of hard thinking to really get into the shadowrun system. I still have doubts about things. Then after arguing it with these other guys over the course of four pages I usually find that no matter what I think about it, there´s a logic to the way the rules stand that I just didn´t get before. Like someone told me not so long ago: It´s propably easier to change the way you look at it, than to change the whole system. The rules aren´t perfect. But we are all telling you that in this case, you´re looking at this the wrong way.

To get the same understanding of what is possible for your character that you get just by looking at the class description in D&D, shadowrun demands that you look into roughly thousand pages of rules (depending on wich books you use) and do a lot of math. You have to figure out your own concept and then recon how it´ll work out in play. This gives you a lot more possibilities, but it also gives the false impression that anything is possible. Would you be as dissapointed if the "increase" spells simply weren´t available to starting characters? Or could only be cast at foci, not without? I don´t think so. Maybe a little bit, but not as dissapointed.

[mintcar]

And good magicans center against penalties, so they don´t suffer as much at all. :)

[John Campbell]

[GentlemanLoser]

"Learn channeling.

Have your shaman channel a force 5 spirit.You get +5 Body, +5 Quickness, +5 Strength plus a bunch of other stuff. It doesn't need sustained, doesn't cost the shaman a single nuyen."

Oh. Where's this detailed?

:oops: Some of my numbers were off... Sorry...

Back to the cat chaman in Tiger form. With the +2 TN to all actions (including running, fighting, pretending to be a tiger, etc) why use this spell without a focus?

"Why should they not get the same penalty for sustaining a spell?"

I find it wrong that a novice just casting thier first spell and a 200 year old elf, 30th level initiate so interwoven with the magical tapestry and knowledgeable about magic itself both have the same difficulty sustaining a spell. Or a mage with a willpower of 1 compared to one with a willpower of 20... Or body ratings if you decide that you're holding magical energy within your body.

*Shrugs*

:)

[John Campbell]

Quickening, basically, eliminates the penalty for sustaining without a focus entirely. That 200-year-old Grade 30 Initiate almost certainly knows the technique, and has accumulated enough Karma over his lifetime that a dozen points for Quickening a spell is a pretty minor cost. On top of that, he's had 200 years to work on his Enchanting and manufacture foci for any spell he wants to sustain, and a high enough Magic rating that focus addiction isn't a problem unless he gets totally crazy with the buff spells.

[Tarantula]

Centering is also the way to avoid taking the TN penalties for sustaining spells. Which is of course, another metamagical technique that the 200 year old grade 30 initiate would obviously know.

[BitBasher]

Although centering can only be done once, as it takes a free action. You can center versus the drain penalties or the casting penalties, but they are two different tests, I don't think you can center for both.

[tisoz]

[mintcar]

cool. Didn´t know that

[JaronK]

[mintcar]

JaronK. Take a look at my sketch of your character in the Art Attack thread. Sorry if I´m nagging you chummer, just don´t want you to miss it.

[Kanada Ten]

Ritual Magic can be used to sustain a spell for a period of time. Things that are to be done long before a run, such as Increased Ini, can be cast using this method.

[Critias]

[The White Dwarf]

Theres not even an issue here. The author posed a question with a crappy frame to it. "How do you get around all the sustaining penalties, but without using half the things that get you around the penalties"... what kinda question is that.

Theres the focused concentration edge, centering, ritual magic, quickening, using spirits or even an ally, spell foci, and probably a half dozen other ways to bypass this issue. On top of the fact you really shouldnt be needing to sustain more than 1 or maybe 2 spells 95% of the time.

This aint dnd, there is no "buff us to super power" and then charge. Just deal with the penalties thru the channels provided and be smart about what spells to use when. Sustaining can hurt but its hardly as crippling as you make it sound to be. =/

[mintcar]

I´m feeling fuzzy inside thinking about how good the sustaining penalty, and other magic related game mechanics are. Instead of making spells the only, defining feature of magicans, like in other games—Shadowrun makes being a good magican a combination of different abilities. Like with the rules for decking and rigging and what not, this is to make the player feel like he´s a slick son of a bitch who knows what he´s doing. And it works because it actually takes some real effort and smarts from the player to utilize the possibilities.

[Eyeless Blond]

It is pretty cool, isn't it? All the same, I'd love to have a metamagic that lets you sustain *just one* spell on yourself without the penalty, or even do something like spend a Free Action every turn to lower the penalty to sustainning by 1. Maybe just lowering or eliminating the penalty while doing something that's clearly and necessarily related to the spell itself? It sucks having to buy a 90,000 nuyen focus just so you cn sustain the Analyze Device spell *and* work on the device you just analyzed at the same time, or to take a +2 Tn mod for doing anything with magic Fingers on *top* of the +2 you already get for doing things "by remote"..

[Kanada Ten]

[Nikoli]

Nah, use their magic pool 2 dice per, make it require a metamagic technique to acomplish. They can support up to their grade in spells this way.

[Eyeless Blond]