Hi All.

Has anyone had problems with Shamans sustaining spells? Well with mages sustianing spells, but hermatics have the option to sustain spells through summoned elementals, which shamans do not.

The +2TN per sustained spell is a heavy penalty, that with even one spell sustained, coupled with some light drain and maybe a light physical wound starts to make it very difficult for a shaman to do anything. From casting another spell, shooting a gun or even talking thier way out of a situation... Even forbid the Shaman tries to sustain a second spell... Casting anther spell while sustaining others is going to lead to taking drain, and more penalties, the sustaining penalty is applied to drain tests isn't it?

Or do all mages start with enough cash to purchase all the sustaining focuses they need at generation?

I understand the need to limit the amount of spells a mage can have active at one time, but doesn't anyone else find this penalty to be too harsh? Has anyone thought of house rules for sustaining spells? Maybe along the lines of linking sustained spells to the spell pool, decreasing a mages magical capability while sustiaing spells, while still enabling them to do other activities.

Not all characters start with enough cash to dole out a number of focuses at generation.

You could take focused concentration as an edge and lower the TN to 1 per sustained spell for starters.

Nope, not too harsh. It's balanced as it is, and you can always take the focused concentration edge if your GM allows it.

Shamans get a significant edge in terms of cash-saving (lodges are dirt cheap, and they don't have to pay for summoning materials for their spirits) and skills (the totem bonuses alone are great). Hermetics are quite expensive to play, and elementals don't come cheap.

How many spells do you need to sustain, and still be trying to do other stuff?

It's a balancing thing. A shaman can whip up a spirit almost anytime (which tend to have a bunch of neat powers on their own) and any place, not to mention the potential bonuses from the totem they follow (which usually outweigh the flaws).

Fine.. Then an aspected sorcerer. No summoning, no shaman dice bonuses/penatlies.

It's not about what spells need to be sustained, but about having a charcater that can act after using 1 (or possibly more) sustained spells.

A +2TN (I'm not counting the edge, but thanks for pointing that out!) on top of wound's and other situational modifiers makes it just about impossible to do other things while sustaining a spell. Then god forbid you actually get into trouble and have to fight or cast an offensive spell, what do you do? Drop any combat buffs you have on? Without a sustaining focus, is it even worth having a combat buff? Drop the other sustained spell you have? (something situational, detect life, light, whatever...)

Or (as had been sugested in other threads) should spell casters just cast buff on other people, then go sit in a hole somewhere? A very entertaining PC to play...

Why should sustaining a spell cripple every other action you take? It even makes it harder for you to run...

I think that's shamanists. Sorcerers are hermatic mages that can only cast spells, not summon elementals.

So you've one sustained spell (mask, you don't want everyone to see your face... for example), cast an offensive spell, take a box of drain because you have +2TN to your drain test (you're now at +3TN's). Then take a light slap (after armour/body) from someone still alive after your spell (your now at +4TN).

With +4TN/-4 init you're in a world of trouble... Try casting another offensive spell and suffer +4TN to drain... Or shotting someone with a +4TN (and movement/cover/light/multiple opponent penalties. etc). If there are a couple of people still active, it just get worse...

So it's really only me that thinks the sustaining penalty is too much? It also doesn't matter how good/bad or experienced a mage you are, all mages suffer (baring the edge..) the same penalty for sustaining a spell? I just don't like that...

The point is just know when to drop a spell. If you've got a spell that you think is some vital part of your character's survivability, purchase (via nuyen, karma, or both) a way to make it permanent. There are plenty of ways to do so (metamagic techniques, spell lock foci). And, as mentioned, there's already an Edge to literally cut your problem in half.

Or keep your character (if he's the sort who's going to be concentrating, quite literally, on spells that he'll be maintaining rather than direct-damage sorts of magic) out of the line of fire. Save the bullet dodging to sammies and adepts, sit in the car with the decker and rigger and just know the team is benefitting from the enhanced aim or combat sense you're holding in place on a combat-oriented buddy's head. Accept the fact you don't belong on the front line (if you're not focusing on front-line spells), and stay out of harm's way as much as you can.

So the answer is unless you start/earn with enough money to buy your focuses (which might not be available in the game you play), or have played long enough to initiate (and again if your game allows the initiation rules) don't use self buff spells if you want to take part in the action. Especially if you don't have a large group, or aren't part of a large team using npcs to make up the numbers.

Don't bother with sustaining armour, Increased refelexes (or any other self improving spells) if you want to cast spells/shoot/hit things in combat.

Or go get yourself a book/comic/hand held game to play when you buff the party and go sit out the action...

I stand corrected. Shamanists are the ones who can cast and summon, but only for spells/spirits they get a totem bonus to aren't they?

But still, unless you have money growing from trees, or enough karma to initiate multiple times (and them bond your focuses/perm your spells) - and a GM who isn't stingy! - what is the point of an active mage (not a buff the fighters, go sit in a hole type...) having things like Increase Body. Enhanced Aim. The list goes on. They just can't be used alongside a +2TN per spell.

*Shrugs*

Maybe everyone here starts off with a million new yen on their mages and has never encountered this problem. Or run for jobs that pay enough for healing, ammo, food and rent with enoguh left over to pick up a nice new focus...

If your in a game were the GM doesn´t have or use Magic in the Shadows, nag him until he does. Or play a mage. Or stick to conjuring, spell defence, shooting and the occational combat or confusion spell. Just because it isn´t viable to buff yourself into a combat monster when your a starting PC shaman with D in resources, doesn´t mean your out of options.

Tell you what. If your main goal is to be able to sustain several spells and still be active in combat, do one or more of the following: Play a mage and use elementals for sustaining. Play a shaman, but see to it that you have money enough to buy sustaining foci. Get the quickening metamagic at initiation (if your game allows for initiating. If not, see the advise above about naging). Get a sustaining focus when you get paid for your first run, even at force 1 or 2 they are golden. If your game involves edges and flaws, get the edge you were talking about.

But my best advise is to look at the vast possibilities you have beond those combat oriented sustained spells. Most sustained spells will be most usefull when your not bothered, so you may drop them when you need to do something else. The penelty is more than just a game ballance thing. It says doing magic in shadowrun demands concentration. Try to see the whole picture. Most players don´t realise what their shamans or mages are capable of with a little imagination.

"Play a mage and use elementals for sustaining."

Mentioned that above, but still, it's not cheap to summon Ele's.


"Most players don´t realise what their shamans or mages are capable of with a little imagination."

Like the player who wanted to play a cat street shaman and use a transformation spell to turn into a tiger to fight, but who didn't start off with enough money to buy a focus, and isn't paid 15,000 per force point per run to go and buy one. And who found out that the +2TN really hurts, especially when combined with Drain and damage...

And then tried to cast a moderate armour spell as well...

I think we might as well realize that there´s a reason there´s never been a "Combat Shaman" archetype, like there´s been a "Combat Mage" achetype. Even though there are several ways of doing the first, the two do have different conditions, and it might not be the natural road for a shaman.

When things went wrong (and this is all just an example) the transferomed cat shaman found although his was nturally quicker (Can't remember the stats for tigers, but they're bound to have a high quickness), it got harder for him to run away, as he now had a +2TN to his althletics test to increase his running speed...

Looks like I am on my own thinking a broad +2TN is too harsh...

I do understand the frustration you describe. My players have felt it too. It´s mostly because there´s no "level-limits" to spells in shadowrun. Most of the things you describe would be to powerfull if they could be done with no cost, at any time. So the player that wants to turn into a tiger with magical armor is just going to have to wait until he´s a powerfull magican. If your really playing a lowpowered game with small payments in both nuyen and karma, maybe you should stick to simpler spells. Or convince your GM to change focus of the campain. Tell him you want a chance to do some of the cool stuff you imagined, and you need to gear up the power levels of your campain.

in this case I would use different base target nrs, some things might be naturally easier for a tiger <ie running, jumping> and some harder <ie drinking water from a glass >, but still use the +2 afterwards.. a tiger witha +2 should not be able to outrun another tiger but should definitely be able to outrun a normal human.

edges, foci, permanent, centering, there are a zillion ways to get around the +2 for a specific spell. oh and about foci.. if you dont have the $$ to buy one, well then steal one!!.. you are a runner, arent you?

DS

Combat Shaman very much are possible. I play a few, and I've got one (an Adversary follower) that's never seen the light of day because of how powerful he'd be.

They just aren't a "Combat ______" by casting and sustaining multiple spells that will try to let them shoot like an adept, take a bullet like a troll, and hand out a beating like a samurai. They -- and by "they" I mean "anyone, not just the poor maligned shaman," just can't do that as a starting character. They're not meant to. It's not D&D, it's Shadowrun -- you just have to accept that the magic level is different, and has different applications.

Even if it was D&D, you can't make a first level mage who can bulk up his strength, his armor, his ranged capabilities, his initiative, etc, etc, all at once (for more than a few minutes a day, if that).

It's a power level thing. You need extra goodies -- be it karma or nuyen or a combination of the two -- to be able to pull off stuff like that. In the same fashion, a starting street sam doesn't have Beta MBW 4 and a panther assault cannon in each hand.

Build you way up towards it, don't shake your fist and rail against the game for being broken (or other DSers for, judging from your tone, being some sort of uber-munchkin elite club, because we suggest waiting and saving up your money and karma). The simple fact is there are ways to make a character dripping with sustained spells...they just don't work at character creation. Look at it as your IC goal, not just your OOC one.

And then, when you get there -- with your extra 3d6 init, +4 Str, +4 Body, +4 Quickness, -3 to all ranged attack TNs, combat sense, +6/+6 armor, and the capability to cast offensive spells, all for no essence loss... maybe you'll understand why it's not possible at creation.

"Most of the things you describe would be to powerfull if they could be done with no cost, at any time."

I agree whole heartedly with that. There has to be some limitation.

But it's not a power level problem here, it's that all the (self) enhancement powers (without resorting to the 2 point edge) are near to useless unless each have a 15 grand per force focus. There is no point using a +6 Body spell, to make your mage more robust to survive a combat when if you do cast it you'll have to hide behind the sam anyway.


"We've run an alternative set of rules for sustaining spells when every PC spellcaster and their grandma seemed to have Focused Concentration. Basically, the first spell gives a +1 penalty, the second spell gives a +2 penalty (total of +3), the third spell gives a +3 penalty (total of +6), the fourth gives +4, etc. Focused concentration remained the same. Basically, this just means that the first sustained spell is the same for all casters, edge or no edge. As the cumulative modifiers build up, Focused Concentration is still better, but this allows for mages to not feel "shafted" if they don't have Focused Concentration. Run this house rule by your GM and see if he likes it. Tell him that it's to balance against the cheese that is the 2 point edge of Focused Concentration."

Cool. That's a nice idea. But there still exists the problem of casting + Quickness to make you run faster, but it now being harder for you to run... I know, same old example, but I'm at work, and can't work out a better one.


"in this case I would use different base target nrs, some things might be naturally easier for a tiger <ie running, jumping> and some harder <ie drinking water from a glass >, but still use the +2 afterwards.. a tiger witha +2 should not be able to outrun another tiger but should definitely be able to outrun a normal human."

Yeah, the penalty is too broad.


"They -- and by "they" I mean "anyone, not just the poor maligned shaman," just can't do that as a starting character. They're not meant to. It's not D&D, it's Shadowrun -- you just have to accept that the magic level is different, and has different applications."

But they can do it, if you start with a million new yen (kinda hard to explain if you're plaing a street type..) and just buy the appropriate focuses.


"(or other DSers for, judging from your tone, being some sort of uber-munchkin elite club, because we suggest waiting and saving up your money and karma)."

;P Sorry if my posts came across that way, this forum is by far one of the nicer ones I've visited, with a very prolific game's being possibly the worst.

With those forum goes definatley being elitist. If your view of the game differed to thiers by 1 degree, (especially if you weren't in thier elite club) you views were just derided.

I haven't seen any of that here.

It really sounds like you are pounding a square peg into a round hole. In other words, you are trying to fit a character with certain capabilities into a role in which that character is ill-suited to fill. If your character concept really hinged on Shapeshift, for example, I'd be damn sure at character creation that I'd have a way to sustain and control that spell. This would mean adjusting my priorities around and perhaps compromising on certain aspects of the character, but it would be a logical choice and I'd be much happier starting out with that character. If you want a character with more Body, there are better ways to go about it than an Increase Body spell, and most of them are more permanent than the spell would ever be. Playing a spellcaster means that you will sustain spells pretty much one at a time, because of the Drain and the TN penalties. That's a limitation that you have to learn how to respect and circumvent.

Learn channeling.

Have your shaman channel a force 5 spirit.You get +5 Body, +5 Quickness, +5 Strength plus a bunch of other stuff. It doesn't need sustained, doesn't cost the shaman a single nuyen.

It is harsh but I don’t think it is to harsh.

If you reworked it only to reduse spell pool I would be running around with 3 sustained spells all the time.

I often take focused concentration and/or several sustaining focuses at character generation. Usually just armour and reflexes. Later I pick up levitate and maybe others. Mostly I don’t sustain a spell while trying to do anything that needs a roll. I never have a problem with it, but then I remember to consider that penalty when deciding what spells to have active. Sustaining foci are not that expensive, 200,000 will by you the necessities and if you want to use buff spells in SR then yes, you will need them.

As to elementals, an elemental to sustain your force 4 armor spell will cost 4000 to summon, a starting character will on average have 3 successes on the conjuring test that is more than 1000 nuyen per casting. And the elemental has to follow you around adding to the risk of detection by astral security, especially if you have masking.

If your concerned about the cost of elementals or getting new foci in game ask your GM at character creation how much he expects to be paying you. This is an important point because if you design a character that believes he is worth 20,000+ to bother taking a job your going to have a problem when the GM sets up runs that only net 5k. You also have a problem if you design a starting runner with little experience if the GM sets runs worth 20-30K if you have never been offered that much you may decide this is to rich for my blood I’m better of dumpster diving this month.

And just so you know I have played characters that would rather sleep on the street than part with there foci, mostly because with there foci they can survive on the street. Without going to there apartment is asking to be robed.

Edward

Elementals can only sustain a spell for a number of turns equal to their force. So a Force 6 elemental can sustain it for 18 seconds, then disappear. Or you bind it to the spell and it has its force reduced by a point a day, and as I read things, it can't provide other services. This seems more expensive than just getting a focus.

When you get better you are able to handle bigger target numbers, you don´t get smaller target numbers because you get better.


Continue arguing this with us. I´m serious. It takes a lot of hard thinking to really get into the shadowrun system. I still have doubts about things. Then after arguing it with these other guys over the course of four pages I usually find that no matter what I think about it, there´s a logic to the way the rules stand that I just didn´t get before. Like someone told me not so long ago: It´s propably easier to change the way you look at it, than to change the whole system. The rules aren´t perfect. But we are all telling you that in this case, you´re looking at this the wrong way.

To get the same understanding of what is possible for your character that you get just by looking at the class description in D&D, shadowrun demands that you look into roughly thousand pages of rules (depending on wich books you use) and do a lot of math. You have to figure out your own concept and then recon how it´ll work out in play. This gives you a lot more possibilities, but it also gives the false impression that anything is possible. Would you be as dissapointed if the "increase" spells simply weren´t available to starting characters? Or could only be cast at foci, not without? I don´t think so. Maybe a little bit, but not as dissapointed.

And good magicans center against penalties, so they don´t suffer as much at all.

"Learn channeling.

Have your shaman channel a force 5 spirit.You get +5 Body, +5 Quickness, +5 Strength plus a bunch of other stuff. It doesn't need sustained, doesn't cost the shaman a single nuyen."

Oh. Where's this detailed?

Some of my numbers were off... Sorry...

Back to the cat chaman in Tiger form. With the +2 TN to all actions (including running, fighting, pretending to be a tiger, etc) why use this spell without a focus?

"Why should they not get the same penalty for sustaining a spell?"

I find it wrong that a novice just casting thier first spell and a 200 year old elf, 30th level initiate so interwoven with the magical tapestry and knowledgeable about magic itself both have the same difficulty sustaining a spell. Or a mage with a willpower of 1 compared to one with a willpower of 20... Or body ratings if you decide that you're holding magical energy within your body.

*Shrugs*

Quickening, basically, eliminates the penalty for sustaining without a focus entirely. That 200-year-old Grade 30 Initiate almost certainly knows the technique, and has accumulated enough Karma over his lifetime that a dozen points for Quickening a spell is a pretty minor cost. On top of that, he's had 200 years to work on his Enchanting and manufacture foci for any spell he wants to sustain, and a high enough Magic rating that focus addiction isn't a problem unless he gets totally crazy with the buff spells.

Centering is also the way to avoid taking the TN penalties for sustaining spells. Which is of course, another metamagical technique that the 200 year old grade 30 initiate would obviously know.

Although centering can only be done once, as it takes a free action. You can center versus the drain penalties or the casting penalties, but they are two different tests, I don't think you can center for both.

cool. Didn´t know that

JaronK. Take a look at my sketch of your character in the Art Attack thread. Sorry if I´m nagging you chummer, just don´t want you to miss it.

Ritual Magic can be used to sustain a spell for a period of time. Things that are to be done long before a run, such as Increased Ini, can be cast using this method.

Theres not even an issue here. The author posed a question with a crappy frame to it. "How do you get around all the sustaining penalties, but without using half the things that get you around the penalties"... what kinda question is that.

Theres the focused concentration edge, centering, ritual magic, quickening, using spirits or even an ally, spell foci, and probably a half dozen other ways to bypass this issue. On top of the fact you really shouldnt be needing to sustain more than 1 or maybe 2 spells 95% of the time.

This aint dnd, there is no "buff us to super power" and then charge. Just deal with the penalties thru the channels provided and be smart about what spells to use when. Sustaining can hurt but its hardly as crippling as you make it sound to be. =/

I´m feeling fuzzy inside thinking about how good the sustaining penalty, and other magic related game mechanics are. Instead of making spells the only, defining feature of magicans, like in other games—Shadowrun makes being a good magican a combination of different abilities. Like with the rules for decking and rigging and what not, this is to make the player feel like he´s a slick son of a bitch who knows what he´s doing. And it works because it actually takes some real effort and smarts from the player to utilize the possibilities.

It is pretty cool, isn't it? All the same, I'd love to have a metamagic that lets you sustain *just one* spell on yourself without the penalty, or even do something like spend a Free Action every turn to lower the penalty to sustainning by 1. Maybe just lowering or eliminating the penalty while doing something that's clearly and necessarily related to the spell itself? It sucks having to buy a 90,000 nuyen focus just so you cn sustain the Analyze Device spell *and* work on the device you just analyzed at the same time, or to take a +2 Tn mod for doing anything with magic Fingers on *top* of the +2 you already get for doing things "by remote"..

Nah, use their magic pool 2 dice per, make it require a metamagic technique to acomplish. They can support up to their grade in spells this way.