Damage Codes / weights revisited?

Damage Codes / weights revisited?

apple View Member Profile	Mar 15 2005, 07:33 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827	Do the damage codes and weights of the weapons get revisited? Light pistol 6L vs heavy pistol 9M vs assault rifle 8M vs light MG 7S? 2,5kg standard weight of an heavy pistol vs the 1,8kg of a real life desert eagle and an 1kg of a Glock, HK or Colt-pistol/revolver with a potent caliber? SYL

GrinderTheTroll View Member Profile	Mar 15 2005, 07:41 PM Post #2
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465	I'd always thought expanding out the damage codes by a factor of 10 (as well as health boxes from 10 to 100) would allow for a finer level of damage that's harder to impose under the long-standing system. Admittedly, I'd miss the simplicity.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Mar 15 2005, 07:35 PM Post #3
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Seeing as how "[t]he core mechanics are completely revised", I can only assume they've been/will be revisited. Will they be any better remains to be seen...

UpSyndrome View Member Profile	Mar 15 2005, 07:49 PM Post #4
Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 22-July 04 From: East Lansing, MI Member No.: 6,506	I hope they tighten up the damage codes a bit, considering you can make a starting archetype-level character that does something like 28M damage with a handblade, which blows firearms out of the water. -Joe EDIT: Correction, he'd have to have a pair of handblades, and that code is without staging.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Mar 15 2005, 07:50 PM Post #5
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	That'd be a good start.

Eyeless Blond View Member Profile	Mar 15 2005, 08:05 PM Post #6
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156	I wonder if they managed to get rid of Open Tests?

Nikoli View Member Profile	Mar 15 2005, 08:14 PM Post #7
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	If nothing else gets fixed in the basic mechanics, let's hope for that one.

GrinderTheTroll

Mar 15 2005, 08:37 PM

Post #8

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

I wonder if they managed to get rid of Open Tests?

Maybe Open Test have become the standard, now you'd need to make an Open Test for the shooters TN, or OT to be the subject of any other attack/spell what-have-you.

...so much hate for the Open Test.

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*	Mar 15 2005, 08:54 PM Post #9
Guests	I love open tests.

apple View Member Profile	Mar 15 2005, 08:47 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827	I hate them ... SYL

Wireknight View Member Profile	Mar 15 2005, 11:17 PM Post #11
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118	Open Tests are great, except that the mechanic by which karma rerolls are applied to them (i.e. 1 KP for 1 rerolled die, 3 KP for 2 rerolled dice, 6 HP for 3 rerolled dice, etc...) makes you really want to beg the GM to just give you an insanely high TN# so you can reroll your potential failures without emptying out your karma pool.

Ombre View Member Profile	Mar 16 2005, 09:57 AM Post #12
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 11-September 04 From: French Runner Member No.: 6,652	Open tests totally suck... They are a statistical aberration since they don't do justice to differences in skill levels. There's no point in raising your skills above 6 (as far as cost is concerned) because basically once a you get a 6 your skill level doesn't matter anymore. since you only have 1 chance in 6 of geting a 6 on a die, having Stealth 4 or Stealth 6 doesn't make that much of a difference. And if both contestants get 6s, then it's just a question of sheer luck to see who's going to get the highest roll. That's why I've fixed the rule by giving a positive modifier to the most skilled contestant equal to the difference in skills (i.e: A runner with Stealth 6 trying to sneak past a guard with Perception 3 would add 3 (6-3) to his Open Roll) . But in my opinion, the best system is to revamp the thing to go back to the good old Opposition test with the highest number of successes determining who "wins" the contest. My worst fear is exactly what someone said: that the Open test becomes the standard system in SR4...if that so, I'll stick to my good old obsolete SR3...

Fortune View Member Profile	Mar 16 2005, 10:02 AM Post #13
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	You can also put my vote down for doing away with Open tests.

Jrayjoker View Member Profile	Mar 16 2005, 02:26 PM Post #14
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675	Aw man! I just figured out how and when to do open tests. Now they go and potentially change things on me, or don't change things on me, or something? Wait I'm confused... :twirl:

Smed View Member Profile	Mar 16 2005, 02:27 PM Post #15
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241	Another vote for the abolition of Open Tests.

Grinder View Member Profile	Mar 16 2005, 02:47 PM Post #16
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	We view Open Tests as an additional rule and simply don't use them. Works fine. After all, use only the rules you and your gaming group want. ;)

Critias

Mar 16 2005, 03:43 PM

Post #17

Freelance Elf

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QUOTE (Ombre)

Open tests totally suck...
They are a statistical aberration since they don't do justice to differences in skill levels. There's no point in raising your skills above 6 (as far as cost is concerned) because basically once a you get a 6 your skill level doesn't matter anymore. since you only have 1 chance in 6 of geting a 6 on a die, having Stealth 4 or Stealth 6 doesn't make that much of a difference. And if both contestants get 6s, then it's just a question of sheer luck to see who's going to get the highest roll.

I understand that probability is less predictable when you're making an open test, and it turns a fairly simple "beat this number" die mechanic on it's ear and complicates issues...but...

What are you saying, here?

You don't seem to get that the more dice you roll, the better your odds to come up with something ridiculously high. Open tests take greater skill level into account just as much as a regular TN based test does, it's just harder to predict with any decent accuracy level, and much more likely to feel like a roll of the dice. Six dice is better than four. Sit down and rull four dice in an open test a hundred times, and six dice in an open test a hundred times, and I bet that on average the six-die test is going to have higher "best" shots. Ditto with, say, six dice versus four hundred and sixty three. You can see that more dice is better, can't you? There's no reason to stop at the magical 6-skill-dice. You know that, right?

That said, I can't think of many times at all open dice come up, except for...two situations, off the top of my head. One is intimidation, wherein the intimidating character sets the TN for the intimidated character's Will test (if I recall correctly). The other is stealth, wherein the sneaking character sets the TN for the spotting character, right?

They sort of make sense, there, in those two situations. It makes sense that trying to scare the crap out of someone you may or may not know (who may or may not know you) is a highly variable situation. There are times a single cop flashing his badge will get a half dozen gangers to back down. There are times the entire US army throwing it's weight around makes half the world flip them off. It's chaotic and random and full of unquantifiable variables. I'm fine with open tests being used there. It makes the 'Runner less likely to get everything he wants by dropping his name and glaring at someone -- the unpredictable nature of the open test makes it less of a sure thing. If it wasn't, every Shadowrunner in the world would get some vat grown pheromones, cultivate a high Intimidation skill, and never ever do anything ever again (because the TN mods listed in the book, the rep mods, and Mr J's LBB's crazy mods would make Intimidation a sure thing most of the time, and you could just browbeat anyone into doing anything you said).

I also feel an open test makes sense for sneaking -- likewise, if it becomes too much of a sure thing to sneak around...? Well, a lot of the suspense is gone, and a lot of PCs (a lot more PCs) will die without ever seeing what's shooting at them. Sneaking and spotting should be things you never feel certain about. There should always be a chance someone gets lucky and turns his head at the right second, looks away from his buddy to cough and spots you, sees a reflection or hear a piece of gear jingle no matter how stealthy you are. The random nature of an open test reflects that -- you can still very very much stack things in the sneaker's favor (I once rolled a fifty-something, after mods, to sneak past some people), but it's not a sure thing (I once rolled a four with that same character, while tippy-toeing up on the brainwashed head of security for the Deus-run Renraku Arcology, at a critical moment).

Taran

Mar 17 2005, 02:01 AM

Post #18

Moving Target

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QUOTE

You don't seem to get that the more dice you roll, the better your odds to come up with something ridiculously high. Open tests take greater skill level into account just as much as a regular TN based test does, it's just harder to predict with any decent accuracy level, and much more likely to feel like a roll of the dice. Six dice is better than four. Sit down and rull four dice in an open test a hundred times, and six dice in an open test a hundred times, and I bet that on average the six-die test is going to have higher "best" shots. Ditto with, say, six dice versus four hundred and sixty three. You can see that more dice is better, can't you? There's no reason to stop at the magical 6-skill-dice. You know that, right?

The issue is that six dice are not better enough than four dice to warrant the expense. Let me inject some figures:

On the left, we see the number of dice rolled. On the right, we see the expected value of an open test made with that many dice.

1 - 4.217978
2 - 5.792721
3 - 6.8916106
4 - 7.6336365
5 - 8.266773
6 - 8.842815
7 - 9.371663
8 - 9.681032
9 - 10.077892
10 - 10.416958
11 - 10.7442255
12 - 11.064394
13 - 11.30267
14 - 11.629637
15 - 11.79942

Variance is pretty low (I've not done the math, though), decreasing with the number of dice. We see that, for example, the difference between four dice and six is about 1.2. Not small; someone with six dice will consistently beat someone with 4. But is that worth 16 karma? The difference is more pronounced between six dice and nine, which is worth another 1.2 of final result but the expected increase per karma point spent is tiny...especially compared to what you'd get if you spent that karma on another skill or two.

Here's the code I used to produce the above, if you care. Edit: or not. The code is here, but the board ate the indenting and the code tag doesn't work inside the spoiler tag.

[ Spoiler ]

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 17 2005, 02:08 AM Post #19
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	that's why i'm never comfortable with stealth rolls. a guy defaulting to 2 Qui might roll a 16 and be super-ninja; a guy with 7 sneaking and 6 bonus dice from centering might roll (just as a hypothetical for-instance that has never happened to me, personally) no higher than a 5. variance is nice, but that's way, way too much.

Fortune View Member Profile	Mar 17 2005, 02:32 AM Post #20
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Open tests must die!

Akai Sokata

Mar 17 2005, 02:42 AM

Post #21

Target

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QUOTE

Aw man! I just figured out how and when to do open tests.

Now they go and potentially change things on me, or don't change things on me, or something?

Wait I'm confused...

I think im in agreement with this guy...I gusse Im what you call a late bloomer when it comes to shadowrun...really I've been ajusting to SR3 from 2 for about a year and half, maybe two years. now Ive had alot of set back, but bascally I feel its got a nice hard solid system. so leave it alone and give it some more sorce books and stuffers to work with. SR4...ok idea...contuineing SR3 great idea. say what you will of me...but I stick with what I say.

Wireknight View Member Profile	Mar 17 2005, 02:57 AM Post #22
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118	The open stealth test thing is just one example of where people really, really, have to research rules that appear spread across multiple books, before they can find all the proper methods for adding to the final results of an open stealth test to reliably produce difficult-to-match results. If those variance values are accurate (though I'm not 100% certain they are, they seem a bit high for lower numbers of dice, which casts doubt on the the correctness of the algorithm employed), then I am also in agreement that something needs to be done about open tests. I think they add an interesting bit of flexibility to the system, enough that they ought not be done away with entirely, but there ought to be something that can be done about minimizing the chance of things like people with no Stealth, defaulting to Quickness, routinely out-sneaking people who rely upon (and have spent a not inconsiderable amount of resources developing) their skill.

Charon

Mar 17 2005, 04:09 AM

Post #23

Running Target

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QUOTE (Taran @ Mar 16 2005, 09:01 PM)

On the left, we see the number of dice rolled. On the right, we see the expected value of an open test made with that many dice.

1 - 4.217978

(...)

Arg, I don't feel like cracking open my stats book open but that can't be right.

The expected value of an open test using one D6 dice just has to be 3.5

Don't make me do a demonstration, I suck at demonstrations! But I know that 2 +2 = 4 and that the expected value of 1D6 is 3.5

Therefore I can't trust the other numbers you provided.

Kanada Ten View Member Profile	Mar 17 2005, 04:25 AM Post #24
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826	Well, the problem is that 1d6 can yeild much more than up to 6 on SR, and a roll of 6 automatically makes for a 7.

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 17 2005, 04:18 AM Post #25
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	indeed. if not for the rule of six, you'd be right. the fact that you can roll a d6 in SR and come up with a result of 100 changes the odds up a bit.

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