 SR4, A joke right? |
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 Mar 16 2005, 12:04 AM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Omaha, UCAS Member No.: 7,090  |
I didn't even want to touch the entire SR4 thread but you've all forced my hand! :D
SR3 is a GREAT system. It has it's flaws but it was a great jump from SR2. Unfortunately, Eyeless Blond is correct. There are WAY too many rules spread across too many books (a real headache if you're playing with a rules lawyer). Not to mention that everyone and their stepmother bitched about SR3 when it was released. It's a cycle. People get comfortable with something and when you shake them up, they panic. Then the smoke settles and in a couple months after release, the folks who claimed "I'm not buying it! It's a BLASPHEMY!" are posting house rules on their personal websites, playing SR4 and dreading the forthcoming SR5. Not that I think SR4 will be perfect. No ruleset is. Personally, I'm just in love with the idea of having a Hardcover Edition... ;) |
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Mar 16 2005, 12:25 AM
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#52
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's what will make SR4 fail: hardcover. No longer will it be possible to roll your main book up and slap offending players with it.
~J |
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Mar 16 2005, 12:27 AM
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#53
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
No, I'm sure GMs with unruly players across the world will be very disappointed with their new ability to pick up a hard, heavy book and beat their players senseless with it.
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Mar 16 2005, 12:33 AM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Why not? Why not offer a free pdf of Just the rules changes. None of the setting info, none of the unchanged rules? Has this ever been tried before - in any game that has gone trhough several revisions? And did it fail? Or Suceed? |
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Mar 16 2005, 12:45 AM
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#55
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Why the fuck would it succeed? New editions bring in money. You are proposing giving it away— but no, not as an act of social benevolence or community fostering or radical departure from business as a whole— but as an asinine business venture. In no uncertain terms, just what the hell are you thinking?
[edit] For that matter, why do you want it for free? It's a new edition. It's been 7 years. It's ostensibly a vast developmental departure from the previous edition. This is not, you know, unfair. This post has been edited by Arethusa: Mar 16 2005, 12:46 AM |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:00 AM
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#56
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
In all honestly, giving away the Quick Start rules for 4th would not be out of the question.
If this is truly an advance in rules, and they truly make it better, I will likely move on to play it. However, I won't go out and buy it right away, especially not without waiting to see what is said here. Unless, of course, I could read enough of the system myself before purchase and make that decision. Besides, they already put the previous Quick Start up for free. |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:02 AM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
It works better for board games than RPGs. I can sympathize though, I bought my SR2 book late and ended up having to buy my SR3 book about 2 weeks later because everyone in my area switched. Well, the only reason I bought a new SR3 book earlier this year was because my old one was disintergrating. I can honestly say though this is not a ridiculous move. The 3.0 vs 3.5 debate with that other game... THAT was ridiculous. They had already turned that game into a table top Diablo match and then decided that the much ballyhooed changes they had made were in fact broken, prompting so many more changes that THEY HAD to re-release a new rules set. And how much time had gone by? Yeah... the SR situation doesn't even begin to approach that level of absurdity. |
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Mar 16 2005, 12:54 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
While I heartly completely and totally disagree with the idea of giving away digital copies of the Shadowrun 4th Edition main sourcebook, I do believe that the main sourcebook should be released in digital format at the same time it's released on the shelves, if not pre-released digitally a day or two beforehand to build up hype for the physical copy.
I have virtually every Shadowrun book in electronic format, and I find that they are tremendously useful. I can search for words or look at multiple disparate pages at the same time, I can load them onto my keychain drive or laptop to take them to gaming sessions, and no matter how many times I look through one, I don't find that loose pages have fallen out and are laying on my desktop. Files apparently have stronger binding than books. |
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Mar 16 2005, 12:55 AM
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#59
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Slacker Extraordinaire Group: Retired Admins Posts: 337 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ashburn, VA Member No.: 997 |
It sounds like their may be some pretty significant changes to the way things work, rather than a few adjustments to the rules. A company doesn't put the sort of time and money it takes to do something like this into a 'free upgrade'. This is a new product with new rules, new setting information, new equipment and character options (speculation), and so forth.
The only case I can think of off the top of my head was the change from D&D 3.0 to 3.5 where they put out a product similar to what your talking about, but the rule changes between those two versions were minimal and were going to be available via the OGL anyway. |
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Mar 16 2005, 12:56 AM
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#60
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
No, I should make it clear that I am not against giving away rules for free. And, in fact, I am very much in favor of giving away the basic rules for free (and a lot of publishers are doing this, these days, though I personally feel everyone involved would be well served if they took it a bit further).
What I find ridiculous is Eldritch suggesting that he is being somehow cheated by the new edition and what he sees as some big and evil tidal wave of unchecked, rapacious revising only for the sake of stripping money from witless fans— and should get it for free as a result. |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:08 AM
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#61
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Not if you are a book-ninja. Ninjas trump lawyers. |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:10 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
I agree with Arethusa. If Eldritch believes that the new edition is not worth his money, and should be given to him for free, I can provide him with a novel solution:
Don't Buy It. If you don't think that a rules change is warranted, no one is putting a gun to your head and saying you have to stop playing SR3. I know lots of people who, despite my urgings to not listen to the demons, still play SR1. They probably do so because they are commanded to by unspeakable monsters from beyond the veil of sanity, but they still do it, and seem to have a good time of it. If you don't think the upgrade is worth your money, don't spend your money buying it. Buy yourself a video game, instead. |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:05 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Germany/Europe/Terra/Sol Member No.: 684 |
Oh, and if you feel that this is bad:
I'm a Mage fan. I'm a collector. And I don't have all the books. Gee, I'm soooo out of luck. But heck, so far the nWoD was great! . . . You get to STILL USE nearly all of your existing books! You stay in nearly the same world! You can bring old characters over! . . . Weehee! How bad that is. :please: Go to the SJGames Forums. Ask a few GURPS gamers how they feel about GURPS 4th. It seems that SR will be going this route. |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:17 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Chill. I'm not saying give the whole f****ing thing away.
And No, I won't buy it. I just can't aford it. Yeah, it is unfair becuase that means within a year or so I won't be able to play. I won't be able to find any 3rd edition games. Yes, I do feel cheated. I've invested a great deal of time and money into this system. I worked at a gaming shop when SR first came out - I sold dozens of copies. Now I'm probably done with it. (And if I still worked in a sho, I'd not push these new rules on my customers) And Why? So they can make a few more bucks? I guess Fan loyalty means nothing to them. |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:29 AM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Germany/Europe/Terra/Sol Member No.: 684 |
SR3 is 7 years old...
The company who made it no longe exists. There are new people working on it. New ideas and new idea influx through the fans. Do you really think they would just push this through, if there wouldn't be a call for it? They want money and profit. They wouldn't plan and sell something they think is not profitable. That's why they didn't translate DidS2 into English. No market. And now they release a new edition. I think that enough people want it. And if they make it a better game, a game which the fans want... THAT'S fan loyalty. |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:40 AM
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#66
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Business is business. Maybe it'll be better but then what will have to bitch about here (other than we had to shell out 30 bones to get it)?
Whatever. Makes my decision to not break down and buy the last few sup's for 3rd pretty easy so that's a good thing--for me anyway. I guess I have a few questions. Mostly for Pat or any other play tester. I don't know if you can answer any of these (disclosure and spoilers and stuff) but any help would be nice. I'm a little stunned by this. So is it D20 or what? Is it still set in Seattle? Will there be a comprehensive (world) history of the last five years? How much is this thing gonna set me back? Did they actually fix more problems than were created? Is it actually well thought out (firearm creation, metahuman mass, cyberlimbs, ect?). Are the mechanics going to be vastly different from SR3? Will there be conversions if the mechanics are vastly different? Will those be in the Core book or do I have to wait? Will I be stuck using Priority again until the supplements start coming out? |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:43 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
I officially vote for joke. If I am wrong, I will probably not buy it, I will pretend that it was a joke anyway.
[Edit] I take that back, if it is really, really excellent I will buy it. I have nearly all the source books for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd ed. When 3rd came out I was excited and was unconncerned about buying new material. I'd be buying the suppliments anyway. I like 3rd ed. because it is so much better than 2nd. If, on the outside chance that this isn't a joke, it will have to be much better than 3rd ed., which I think is pretty darn good. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 16 2005, 01:45 AM
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#68
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Guests |
Oh, please. Do you think every SR player out there is on the cutting edge of SOTA when it comes to SR? I know of people who are still playing with 1e rules. To even suggest that you won't be able to find a single game anyway, IRL or online, to play SR3 simply because of three 2005 Q4 releases, you have either very little interest in playing, or are full of shit. I don't know how long you've gamed. I don't really care, either. But I have books from 1e, 2e, 3e, and will preorder 4e on Stiggybaby. I've invested several hundred dollars on the more than 50 SR books I have, most of which are out-of-date and completely different in rules and setting from SR3. However, that was a cost I accepted when I decided to continue playing Shadowrun and bought the SR2 books and supplements, and then SR3 and the supplements. It's a continuous expense, and it is not in any way unexpected for someone to have to incur expenses in pursuing their hobby. But moreover, this reminds me of the people complaining about the "end" of the WoD lines. You only have to play the game the way you want to. There aren't game police who are going to bust down the door because you don't buy SR4 the day it hits the shelves. After 6.5 years, it has become clear that SR3 has suffered a critical mass of rules bloat. It is too fractured, too uncoordinated, and too scattered to be played easily without having to use multiple books. Sure you can run with the SR3 book, but at a point you start handwaving rather than use the rules FASA/FanPro has written in anticipation of your question. And you know why I say this? It's because that's what the developers said! I think it's safe to take them at their word. But really, this is simply a hobby game. It 's not a required expense, and I am sure that you can survive using the SR3 rules in the SR4 universe (which is what I did with SR2 and 3 until I caught up). Moreover, there are 5 or 6 unaccounted for years in which you will have free reign in which to do whatever you like with the SR3 rules because aside from SC and CE, there are no chances of FanPro micromanaging your game until your group reaches 2070 and hits the wall of SR4. And even then, you can continue to use the SR3 rules in the SR4 setting, and you can do what a lot of us have done with the rules that SR4 will replace--ditch them and use houserules. What do you know? Perhaps the houserules will be like Wireknight's and be well thought-ough, playtested, evaluated, and torn apart by fickle users until they gain acceptance in your group. Or you can buy a couple of SR4 sourcebooks. After all, what else would you be spending that money on if there was no SR4? SR3 supplements, perhaps? What's the difference? It's all the same world, but ultimately, it's YOUR world. So get a grip already. Fan loyalty means more to them when the fans are complaining about having to go through 3 books to get the rules for Small Unit Tactics. Fan loyalty means being loyal to your fan base, and over the last several years the fan base--especially through this very medium--has proven to be restless when it comes to the rules. You say "fan loyalty?" What do you know? FanPro is being loyal to its fans by putting out a better quality product in part through the imput of its more hardcore fans who populate sites like Dumpshock and Shadowland. You don't know what you're talking about. You think this is a money-making venture? I'd be surprised if they even reap a small profit in 2005 because of the expenditures they face putting out SR4. But what do you know? |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:54 AM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Germany/Europe/Terra/Sol Member No.: 684 |
Read the threads. Read the announcement. *g*
No.
We don't know for sure, but... Why not?
The following sourcebooks will lead the world towards 2070.
What? Money wise?
It's hoped for. *g* But the general impression on this first date of the announcement is: Streamlining. Less useless fuzz.
See answer above.
It seems so. Perhaps not vastly, but seriously.
No idea as of sofar.
Chargen will be different than that, I suppose... |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:54 AM
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#70
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
I just hope they don't rape the world (CyberGeneration comes to mind ...) though, given that the people who were responsible for the recent background books seem to be behind this, I have hopes the world will still be recognisable.
And I hope they'll offer rules to convert characters, as I would really fucking hate to ditch my longt-term characters just because people decided that a complete rules overhaul was in order because, well, everyone is doing that these days. |
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Mar 16 2005, 02:00 AM
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#71
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
More importantly, I see no reason it would change your game.
Yeah, and I think it's an important question. I think it can make or break a game what it sells for. |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:52 AM
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#72
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Target Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 4-November 04 From: Bug City Member No.: 6,806 |
Guys and Dolls....I am a long time onlooker, but this has spured me to post.
One one hand, I agree that like SR3. Does that mean I wont buy SR4; I will look at the rules and decide if I want to change or not...if nothing else I will buy them for what they are SOURCE MATERIAL....people have been converting from one system to another for years....my buddy is a long time player of the HERO system...so I have lived thru a billion conversions from a billion other systems. But a good friend of mine, who foresaw this very thing on the horizon....has me convinced to stop and take a deep breath...roll my Drain Test TN #5 and relax and wait until I can actually put my grubby lil fingers on the book itself. So like much in life, only time will tell... :cyber: |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 16 2005, 02:01 AM
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#73
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Guests |
I doubt the rules or going to change so much that PC conversion couldn't be summed up in a page or two.
Worst case scenario: Seattle doesn't exist anymore.
As opposed to what? Psychologically? |
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Mar 16 2005, 01:56 AM
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#74
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
I agree with that CD2.0
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Mar 16 2005, 02:01 AM
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#75
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Sorry. I'm not writing a term paper here. This is the first time I logged on today. I didn't feel like plowing thru everybody's gripes.
No, in Karma. :P Yes, I meant in cash. :) I guess I'm just a little shocked. We've been hearing for years "There's no plans for SR4," and then BLAM-O, "SR4 to be unvieled and next 'Con." They must've known, right? They must've been working on it for a few years, right? I'll probably go buy it--I'm not that poor (close, though) but I just need to let the shock wear off for a little bit. I'm not trying to be inflamatory. I'm just trying to make sense of it all. This post has been edited by kevyn668: Mar 16 2005, 02:02 AM |
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