 Things in need of revision, No 5-item limits in this line... |
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 Mar 21 2005, 10:07 PM
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#106
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Freelance Elf  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714  |
Why would colleges devote all that energy, budgeting, and brainpower towards figuring it all out, though? I mean, duh. All you've gotta do is dance widdershins around the blah blah blah three times under the light of the full moon, skyclad, right before having sex with your ally spirit. Magic's easy.
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Mar 21 2005, 10:41 PM
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#107
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Guests |
Yes, let's all be stupid and lazy.
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Mar 21 2005, 11:56 PM
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#108
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Because, essentially, that's what universities do. The very important, valid reasoning behind it is that the more you know about how and why something works, the more you can tweak things to improve upon them. All that time-honored tradition crap works just fine in your grandpa's spirit house, but here in the real world, progress is made through research and development, and the core of that is really, truly understanding what you're doing, not just waving your hands and praying that you hit just the right number of steps. |
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Mar 21 2005, 11:59 PM
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#109
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Which is true of both Hermetic and Shamanic traditions. Trial and error based on observable results, but no one can start from scratch with magic. You can't default to Willpower or Intelligence to make it work. So all magical study must come from some mystical tradition and work backwards to science. The best way to do that is to study ALL magical traditions and see what they have in common, which is why UMT exists and is, at a slow but steady pace, gaining on the rest. |
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Mar 22 2005, 12:43 AM
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#110
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Funny thing about that: if you use the canon rules for adding/improving skills, this makes it actually impossible to ever learn Sorcery or Conjuring, or indeed any other Magical Skill. :D |
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Mar 22 2005, 12:52 AM
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#111
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I'm not sure I see that on page 244 or 245 of SR3 (Improving the Character). Can you clarify? If you're talking about training then I would suggest that learning Sorcery or such can only be done "roleplayed to the max" for at least the first point. Which is almost suggested in the text.
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Mar 22 2005, 03:14 AM
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#112
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
I was actually looking at the rules in SRC, and I read them wrong anyway (I thought Instruction was used as a complimentary skill for these purposes, instead of adding directly to successes.) My bad.
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Mar 22 2005, 02:25 PM
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#113
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
I know it's been said already but
Please, PLEASE, PLEASE! have an INDEX! Also please don't spread a rule through several sections of BBB4. I would like as several people have already suggested to have one rule system for rigging, hacking, combat, magic etc. Having gear, vehicles etc designed with one system which can be bought as a book for gear-heads is also a very good idea. That's my 0.02 :nuyen: worth. :cyber: |
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Mar 22 2005, 04:13 PM
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#114
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Things in Need of Revision: Practically everything about the system.
Preferred Solution: Rebuild the system from scratch while 1) retaining the flavor and style of the game and 2) leaving the old system behind completely. Hooray for that seeming to be the case so far! Seriously, as long as the new system is familiar (staged damage, wound penalties, baseline attributes and skills ranging from 1-6, spellcasting drain, etc.), I'll be happy. If they change it so much that it's unrecognizable... well, I won't be as happy. But I'd still rather see that than another sloppy patchwork job with tons of cuts-and-pastes and weirdness due to legacy rules like the 2nd and 3rd editions were. |
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Mar 22 2005, 07:44 PM
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#115
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Target Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 22-March 05 Member No.: 7,211 |
That made my day! I had basically given up GM-ing Shadowrun because of the clunky system. keeping track of several dice pools, calculating target numbers and keeping track of initiative all at the same time, simply killed the fun of a good fight and slowed it down to a crawl. Fights could literally take hours. However the odd damage system somehow seems to work alright :-) I hope they get rid of all kinds of dice pools, makes it easy to calculate target numbers, if there should even be such a thing, and maybe simplify the initiative system, though that might be more difficult in a game where some characters are supposed to be much faster than others. I also look forward to the new rules for the matrix and for riggers. The rules for these kind of activities where so complex and over detailed in previous versions, that no-one in our group in the end bothered making decker or rigger characters. I wish FanPro luck making the new rules and hope they succeed in making them "... simpler and more streamlined for quicker, easier and more consistent play!" |
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Mar 22 2005, 07:53 PM
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#116
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Deckers aren't so bad to run, really, except for all those damn utilities. If they tossed out like 90% of the operational utilities and stupid stuff like Sleaze (*why* isn't your DF just equal to your Masking in the first place?) and basically just made everything but special utilities and combat tests versus Access, Control, Index, Files, or Slave--rather like they do with Otaku, really--it would go a long way to making the decker rules more easy to use.
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Mar 22 2005, 09:12 PM
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#117
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
No, Die Pools must stay. Initiative must stay also. At least as far as, sammies get more actions then everybody else.
I think Sleaze was in there because you were screwed when tar pit/baby crashed your sleaze while you were running around in stealth mode. |
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Mar 22 2005, 09:09 PM
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#118
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 16-March 05 Member No.: 7,178 |
The shark and wolf totem need to be swaped.
Wolves hunt in packs, but when a wolf shaman frenzies he doesn't have the option to ignore friends. Sharks are solitary hunters and do have feeding frenzies and everybody gets bit. But a shark Shaman has the ability to ignore friends as possible targets. It's simple enough to correct and only needs 5 min of somebodys time. :D PLEASE! :D |
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Mar 22 2005, 09:40 PM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 25-February 05 Member No.: 7,119 |
Sheesh, just because I've taken advantage of that "can keep attacking the body of a fallen enemy" bit in your game for years, you have to go and request a change. :P |
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Mar 23 2005, 12:08 AM
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#120
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Eliminating Pools would go a long way towards leveling the playing field, especially in regards to Magic vs. Mundane. I don't think this would be such a bad idea at all.
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Mar 23 2005, 01:05 AM
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#121
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
It would also mean that raw attributes are almost completely divorced from skill use, except for upgrade Karma costs. I'm not sure I like that.
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Mar 23 2005, 01:12 AM
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#122
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
If dice pools go, they´d have to put something else in there to keep the strategic factor. Dice pools are problematic and raises many questions, but they don´t slow the game down.
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Mar 23 2005, 01:19 AM
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#123
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Not necessarily. I can think of a couple of ways that would incorporate Attributes into Skill use as much, or even more than they are now. Especially with a complete rules rewrite. |
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Mar 23 2005, 01:48 AM
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#124
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Maybe they're going the way of White Wolf and making the dice rolled = skill + attribute (more or less). If they did that, they would either have to require more successes to be useful or raise TNs, both of which would be problematic. But hey, it's a whole new ruleset.
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Mar 23 2005, 02:12 AM
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#125
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I didn't want to be the one who actually suggested that, but I think that is probably the best way to go.
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Mar 23 2005, 02:13 AM
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#126
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Ideally I'd love to see the system use Attributes to determine how many dice to roll, and Skill to determine or modify the target number.
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Mar 23 2005, 02:19 AM
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#127
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
I took the bullet. Tell my wife... I love her... |
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Mar 23 2005, 02:20 AM
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#128
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Well, I think that is the worst idea I have heard, barring D20. I mean who would play humans? I mean if I have to roll my quickness plus pistols, and I want to be a gun slinger...WHy wouldn't I be an elf? If I wanted to play a boxer, why not play an Ork, better yet a troll? If I wanted to play a mage, why not a Dwarf? |
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Mar 23 2005, 02:21 AM
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#129
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Tell me... does it look bad...?
Don't lie... you were always... a bad... liar.... *dies* |
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Mar 23 2005, 03:02 AM
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#130
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 29-July 03 Member No.: 5,137 |
I've always been a big fan of the attribute+skill system, it's highly versatile (i.e. you don't always have to use the same attribute with any given skill, giving you a easy to vary # of dice for different situations). Not sure how I'd like it applied to SR, have to think about that one for a while. It does make the attribute boosts from the racial templates slightly more powerful, but not massively enough that I would regularly choose an meta (I'm a big fan of humans, and karma pool). Dice pools are a cool system though, the let the player determine how much effort they're going to put into any given action, which I like better than the idea of splitting dice pools that WW has. With the attribute+skill system, if you go real fast and want to attack, attack, attack, but still be able to dodge if someone slower than you gets a hit in, you have a pretty dismal dice pool by the time you get to your dodging, with combat pool on the other hand you can say your biggest concern is dodging should the need arise and thus dedicate the larges percentage of combat pool to it and attack with a lower number of dice. Given that, as far as combat goes, I have to say I prefer having the combat pool to doing a attribute+dice. A+D makes things generally a little more versatile, but pools give the player more control of their actions, and I think at least for SR I like that.
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