This is pretty much the same as the "top five" thread, but I ultimately realized that, through expansion on meanings dragging it off-topic, and my own belief that there are more than five things that should really be changed, this thread is for discussing and suggesting problems/fixes in general. Those responsible for drafting the new rules might even give this thread a once-over at some point. Well, alright, probably not. But, despite SURGE and the CC rules, most of us are still capable of hope and other non-despair emotions.

Here's a few things that I've already changed, in unofficial supplements that have gone over pretty well both here and on Shadowland:

1. Cybercommlinks
Based off of antiquated ideas of how wireless technology would evolve, they are in need of complete revision/replacement. My rules for this are here.

2. Headware Memory
I think that headware memory should act more like RAM, and that there's a need for higher-capacity, lower-essence cybernetic memory that acts more like non-volatile storage, such as hard drives. Thus was born the CMM (Cybernetic Memory Module).

3. Cyberlimbs
They cost far too much, both in terms of impact on the body and in terms of impact on the pocketbook. Their various attributes are subpar compared to flesh and blood augmented with muscle replacement and muscle augmentation/toner. I created a set of rules called Cyberlimbs That Do Not Suck, and later revised it to a more streamlined version 2.0. It was from v2.0 of these rules that the final version arose, available here.

It should be noted that advanced design options and adjustments to the ECU ratings of most equipment were in the works, but I decided to put them off in the interest of streamlining and improving the basic mechanics, which were in more dire need of repair and revision.

I've got more ideas forthcoming, but those are the ones that were so pressing that I felt inclined to actually revise the rules to deal with.

WK for SR Line Developer in 2005.

Master Shake for SR Line Developer in 2005.

But in this case, I think he's in the right on all points. Please, FanPro, please make cyberlimbs worthwhile in 4th ed.

I'd really like to see the cyberware paradigm changed away from the absurd cyberphobia that's run pretty deep so far. The cyberlimbs are just the most visible manifestation of this problem.

The "Pillars/ways" adept setup that got dumped about 2 years back.

Nothing that needs a new edition.

That decision, however, seems to have already gone down the pipe. So, barring no new edition, I really want the (scarily) highly active SR community treated as an integral part of the design process. I've liked what FanPro has done so far, I must say. But a change as important as this should have major player input.

Big one, and a revision worthy of a new edition:

4. Elimination of Open Tests
Seriously, Open Tests are in no way needed in the game. They exist in like three places in the rules currently--the only one of which I can name at the moment is Stealth--and can be changed to Success Tests or even Opposed Tests fairly easily. All hail the single core dice mechanic.

5. Changes to legacy spells/spellcasting
I'm sure people are getting sick of me saying so, but the Invisability and Stealth spells should have variable success based on their Force and/or net successes. Having it be all-or-nothing like it is makes for some stupid consequences with Force 1 spells being irresistable. This would also solve the problem of whether invisability "processes" the spell or not, such that you can't cast LOS spells through it.
(Edit): Also, Detection spells that enhance existing senses don't need to be resisted. Nightvision, for example, or even Clairvoyance/audiance. Detection spells that grant entirely new senses like the Detect(X) series, Mindprobe, etc. should work as they currently do.
(Edit x2): Something I'd *like* to see, but isn't truly necessary, is a change to the sustaining modifier such that doing a task directly related to the spell you're sustaining doesn't incur the usual +2 modifier. Sustaining an Enhance Aim spell shouldn't make it *harder* to use a gun; sustaining an Analyze Device shouldn't make it *harder* to analyze a device; sustaining a Clairvoyance spell shouldn't make Perception tests harder; etc.

Encryption/Decryption
Shadowrun's whole encryption/decryption scheme is very strange. Unless quantum computing methods are commonplace (and nothing in canon or flavor text seems to indicate this is so) decryption should either be much less powerful at equal rating, or much more expensive, than the equivalent encryption.

Likewise, I never understood the point of having distinct and disparate "broadcast" and "data" types of encryption. Unless things have gone very backwards and downhill from current communications standards, all communication, be it television(er, trid), wireless voice carrier, or pure data transfer, will occur over a digital medium. Having a whole seperate cryptographic world for broadcast and data encryption is nonsense, and should probably be eliminated.

Real vehicle combat rules that take the character combat rules as their model, so that someone who learns the character combat rules will already be halfway to the vehicle combat rules. And vehicle combat rules that better integrate vehicles and pedestrians together. I've been in this game since the basic book was blue and all there was, and I can count the number of times I've seen a totally vehicle-on-vehicle combat on one hand.

Vehicle statistics that include a meters-per-turn and km-per-hour entry.

The karma cost on many metamagics. In order to get Centering to work worth a damn, for example, you have to initiate and take Centering as your metamagic. Then you have to buy not one, but two different skills up to level 5 or 6 so that you can be confident of getting at least two successes in order to add one paltry success to your Sorcery test. For that one extra success, you just paid out something like 80 karma points. It's ridiculous. for 48 karma points you could have raised your Sorcery from 6 to 9 instead.

Kill a lot of the social mechanics, like Favors and Walls Have Ears. The players and I will handle the roleplaying, thanks.

One other thing -- I'm damned excited about 4the ed. and I'll buy every last thing for it, just like I did for 3rd, 2nd, and 1st, since I was fifteen years old. [/I]Shadowrun is dead! Long live Shadowrun[I]!

One thing I think should be changed, though it's more an opinion (some people like easy, or relatively easy, methods of permanently damaging characters) than an actual addressing of a flaw in the rules, is magic loss. I never understood why it got easier (to the point of being guaranteed at 12+ Magic) to lose magic, the more powerful you got. Likewise, it's impossible to burn out from 2d6-method magic loss. When your Magic hits 1, you cannot lose any more.

My idea for an alternative to this would be to roll 1d6 per 3 points of magic, or portion thereof, with the consequences of the roll result remaining unchanged. Thus people have a chance, but not a guaranteed chance(average of 50%) of losing magic, and there is a potential for total burnout. However, like I said, many are of the opinion that the static 2d6 magic loss method is fine, and that the abovementioned results of it were intentional. I wouldn't call it broken, just something I would prefer changed.

Eh, I think that the 2d6 method is fine. Note, btw, that rolling a 2 on the 2d6 is always a failure, and rolling a 12 is automatically a success on the Magic Loss test.

As for Q-computing ans SR, I was actually under the impression that computing in the 2060s was Q-computing. It explains a lot, actually, in particular how the proceedure is the basic indivisible unit of storage rather than data (pulses rather than bytes, data as "datasofts", proceedural abstraction being a newly rediscovered tool, and only in the case of party IC and its ilk, etc.) But that's another rant entirely.

And I agree, the three forms of encryption/decryption have to either a) go, or b) have their mechanical differences emphasized more.

I'd also like to see yet another revision of the initaitive system. Instead of everyone going and the fastest continueing to go, perhaps a staggared system? Or maybe we can summon Cain and use his.

Honestly, I don't remember any of the research I did on quantum computing anymore. It was all about three or four years ago, and I have since never needed to know any of it. I do remember that all of that stuff seemed to make sense at the time, though.

So... sorry I can't be of much help, but I'd have to re-learn all of it over again. Being a chemist now rather than a college student, you'll have to forgive me if I don't really find it possible to research ATM.

I would like to see all of the core rules in one book. Things like quickening, all of the spells, all of the cyber, etc. That was one of the real annoyances of the Third Edition main book. It was especially grating to see things like dermal sheathing, bioware, form-fitting body armor, etc. left out just so they could stick it in the supplements. I would like to see all of the rules in one book. I don't mind SOTA books that go into more detail, but I shouldn't have to get Target: Awakened Lands if all I want is for my character to have the survival skill. For the supplements, put in the more esoteric and specialized stuff, and the optional more complicated rules. But for once, I would like to be able to run the full-blown game, with edges, flaws, initiation and all, from one book.


I also think that more examples would help a lot, especially for problematic areas such as adjudicating the results of social skills. There have been too many perpetual questions (do shamans get their Totem bonus for spellcasting and Drain, or just spellcasting? Is armor layering restricted to the first two layers, or did the half value thing refer to the second and subsequent layers. It goes on and on).

Some of the rules, especially rigging and decking, need to be streamlined and simplified. They need to find a way for wired reflexes to have some kind of effect in melee combat, without making sammies too overpowered. If adepts are going to be penalized for not following a "way", then make it something easier to do than a penalty to power costs (things like a 0.25 power at +25% cost). Personally, I think a bonus for following a way would work a lot better than a penalty for not doing so. It's just like spellcasters who don't want a lot of restrictions on their behavior can pick Coyote or Trickster - they have much more latitude, but don't get any bonuses.

Spellcasting isn't that bad, but spell defense needs to be done in a less needlessly complicated way. It needs to be a lot more clear how Illusion spells work, and what happens when you successfully resist (if you resist someone's invisibility spell, do you know someone is there, but still suffer the penalties from blind fire?) As someone already mentioned, a resistance test doesn't make sense for some of the detection spells (especially night vision!).

Oh, drat. You've forced me to do research myself!

I don't know if I agree with the idea of rolling all the material from the supplements into the main book. I do think that some of the material spread across some of the many supplements should have been in a main book, but now the opportunity has arisen for that to happen. Skills to cover virtually any situation should be encompassed in the main book, which means including initiation and, at least, the centering and divining metamagics, as well as the design/construction skills (though I believe that the rules for constructing vehicles, software, magical gear, and weapons should be put in seperate book(s)). I think that all the material that was covered in-depth in the expansion books should be introduced in the main book.

1) The core book should not reference other books
2) Expansions should reference only the core book

Magic. Decking has been an on going mess they constantly keep trying to fix and 2nd decking was an abortion in bad binding. but in 3rd ed, they have added so much stuff to magic in so many differnet books, paths, trails, images etc, they have made a mares nest that needs to be sorted out.

Hmm, here's my idea of what should definitely be in the core book(or be adjusted):

Skills
All skills in every book up and until this point, including Disguise, Centering, Divining, Armor(B/R), and all the rest. Characters should receive at least 10 more active skill points at creation than they do already, possibly as many as 15. Shadowrun has a wide variety of skills available, and the current number of skills exceeds most characters' abilities to acquire them. One idea might be to flag primary versus secondary skills. Combat skills, as well as athletics, stealth, and most technical skills, are useful enough to cost the full value, and be considered primary. Skills like Disguise and Survival, and possibly Performance(it's right now unmentioned or assumed to be a knowledge skill, which I don't think is strictly appropriate) aren't knowledge skills, by nature, but aren't useful enough in the day to day survival of a character to really cost as much as combat/magical/technical skills, and so should be considered "secondary".

Magic
In order to cover the fact that new books introduce new skills, in SR3, and that is something that should be avoided in SR4, basic initiation rules should be part of the main sourcebook. Maybe not magical groups and ordeals (let people pay the full price until the Magic expansion book), but initiation itself should be in place. Metamagics that have linked skills, like Centering and Divining, as well as Sensing and Psychometry, should be part of the core rules. There need be no overabundance of adept powers to cover initiation, since one could easily fill out a grade 10 adept with powers solely from the main book and find nothing lacking.

Gear
All equipment should be created using a system refined and developed during the process of writing SR4. Firearms, foci, electronics, skillsofts, vehicles, they should all be created from a set of construction rules (rather than having construction rules that try, and fail, to attempt to model a system that both allows the creation of new gear and the re-creation of existing gear). Those construction rules should not be there to bloat up the main book. We don't want the thing to be 800 pages, and it's reasonable to expect people to purchase new books if they want to create content within the bounds of the rules, rather than simply using it. The rules, pre-created, should be introduced as part of the relevent core expansions.

Cyberware, Bioware, Nanoware, Genetech
These should all be present. Moreover, it's just about one paragraph to include rules for things like cultured bioware and custom cyberware. Rules for the installation of such, however, should remain firmly in an expansion book (I consider them to be construction, since constructing augmentations would be a truly horrific endeavor that I have no interest in espousing). I also think certain fundamental changes should be present. One I'd like to see would be eliminating the rules that say various pieces of 'ware that increase certain attributes, but don't increase related dice pools/derived attributes, or increase the attribute in all ways except raising the related attribute; it's overcomplicated. Would the world end if Encephalon boosted Intelligence, again, or if Muscle Replacement was close to as good as Muscle Augmentation/Toner?

Character Creation, Edges, Flaws
Everyone, just about, uses Edges and Flaws. I think a good, solid group of these should be introduced in the character creation section of the new rules, along with point-build system. I think that things like the alternate build systems (multiple priorities, high-powered, low-powered) should be delegated to expansions, but the aforementioned character creation/customization options have become so common that they should be considered "basic" as far as inclusion goes.

... that's about it, off the top of my head.

I've long advocated a Primary/Secondary/Tertiary skill division. More or less, along the lines you mention, though Tertiary being a third category for the stuff that really has nothing to do with the game (RPGs of the 2060s, Fine Wines, etc). It's good to finally see someone else like the idea.

I agree with the sentiment that all of the basics need to be covered right off the bat, especially things that concern converting old characters to the new system, but instead of trying to include everything in one book, how about releasing four or five books for the new system at the same time: BBB4, Rigger 4, all-about-magic 4, decking 4, cyber/bio/nano 4 (and maybe a "anything that goes boom: 4" for a 6th book for those who want lots of gun choices)?

The BBB4, IMO, ought to cover the same material (updated, of course) as the previous versions, with the addition of adding initiation and enchanting to the magic section and a thourough covering of cyber and bioware to the implants section.

Just my two cents. The new scares me, but such change is required to keep the company going.

S'Ren

You really don't want to split books up too much. I realize it is a major potential for income, but too much fracturing is bad for community, bad for players, and bad for building a strong line. Three core books should honestly, be the absolute max.

Decking
I know alot of this is going to change in a fundamental way, but some issues to ponder. Consolidate most of the operational, and many of the special, utilities together, and/or fold them into the deck itself. For instance, combine Encrypt/Decrypt, just like Read/Write is combined. Combine Deception and Browse, Read/Write with Evaluate, possibly Validate with Deceptionand Browse. The main idea here is that deckers really shouldn't *need* more than 5-7 main utilities to do most of their decker-stuff.
Encourage rules similarity by having the decker's Response Increase be a piece of cyberware rather than a deck modification. There's even an existing piece of ware whose description makes it perfect to fit this role: the encephalon. This has the added benefit of having the Encephalon give you something that's actually worth the amount of money and Essence you pay for it, rather than just being the thing to get when you've got a buttload of money to spend and can't upgrade your Math SPU any more.

Yeah. That's one thing I forgot, which was an oversight. It bears mentioning:

Indices are not luxuries. They are a sign of a professionally designed book.

I understand if it's terribly difficult to get a product in, within its announced sale time, if you have to add an index. What this means, however, is that release date should be pushed back. I cannot stress enough that, if at all possible within monetary and time constraints, Shadowrun 4 should usher in a golden age of professionalism in the actual books themselves. Maybe they don't need to be hardback, or include color artwork, but they should be solidly bound and inked, should be hand-edited for typographic and grammatical errors, and should include, most importantly, an index.

Now, it's not as if all Shadowrun books are poorly made and edited. It's just that I've commonly noticed errors during my first run-through a book, errors obvious enough that I wondered how they'd been missed, under the pretty logical assumption that other people, trained in seeking out and destroying mistakes, have run through the book numerous times. I've had books fall apart, pretty often. I opened Matrix, fresh from the shrinkwrap, and was greeted by twenty pages of it falling into my lap. I was reminded of when I bought the Seattle Sourcebook, original, many years ago. Again, I'm not some sort of cursed being that these problems gravitate towards. I imagine this happened to a lot of people.

I've seen lots of complaints, though phrased so as not to offend the line developers and freelancers, about the editorial and physical quality of the books. I don't see why people get mad when this is brought up, but they do. It's not designed to be inflammatory, it's something I, as a customer of the FASA corporation (and later WizKids/FanPro LLC), have noticed and voiced my displeasure with. I don't like paying money for something that is broken when I get it, be it broken physically, or be it unpolished grammatically and typographically. I don't like it, and if it can stop, I think it would make a fine addition and reinforcement to the "new beginning" that Shadowrun 4 seems to be offering to the product line.

another section to add to WK's list:

Networking
including all rules for encryption, decryption, rigging, and decking. i say again: all rules. integrated.

I'd like it if the secondary books re-printed the rules from the Core book. For example, the Vehicles and Drones rules from the SR4 book would be the first chapter of the Rigger 4 book. That way if I'm looking up a Vehicle rule, I don't have to remember which book it's in, because I know I'll find a canon answer in R4.

If that's not practical, SR4 just needs better organization and indexing of its rules. For example, in SR3, the rules for the Magic Attribute are spread out all over the place. If I look it up in the index in the back of the BBB I'm directed to pages that tell me how to chose it at Character Generation, how to calculate it based on your essence, and finally how to figure out if you've lost a point. What it doesn't tell me is what effect it has on my character. Does it limit the force of spells I can cast? Does it limit the force of spirits I can summon? Does it limit the number of sorcery dice I can roll? The only way to find the answers to these questions (besides just asking on these boards) is reading through the entire Magic chapter, including all of the spell descriptions.

Anyway, better organization is the top thing on my wishlist. Even if they totally screw up the game and it's atmosphere, I'll just be happy if I can find the rules (broken or not).

actually, it's almost certain from the get-go. at magic 6, you've got less than a 50% chance of retaining your magic if you're forced to check for loss. by 8, you'll only keep it if you're really, really lucky. above that, just kiss it goodbye if you have to make a check.

I'll be taht guy-If they have already announced that this version isprinting and beign sold in August WTF are we makign suggestions for? Haven't they already made the major decisions? Like all the rules and stuff, and wouldn't they now be at the point of editing and finishing art/layout design?

I am not saying agree or disagree with WK or anyone else, but this seems pretty pointlesss, unless you're looking to math your predictions to the actual product.

They only announced it, even to freelancers, at the start of this week. If they've got it all done already, and have done so without at least holding the sort of running town hall caucus that forums like this provide, they're missing out on a whole lot of opinions, observations, and suggestions, one or two of which might actually be reasonable!

The only reason you announce something is to generate publicity for a (nearly) finished project, unless we've suddenly moved into the world of cinema.

Hey Paul, no offence but tell that to the happy fans of Half Life 2, Rome Total War, and just about any other PC game that's worth a damn. Yes, people have missed deadlines in the print world too...

that, and five months out is a bit early.

There is still the chance that this is a 4/1 joke. That's only about 5% in my view and only because my natural caution prevents me from being 100% on nearly anything. [edit: including that last statement ]

Really, it was the "Matrix 2.0" thing that put me over the top. It's too plausible that FP/WK would want to "fix" deckers to make them more usefull and easier to integrate into play.

Wireless Matrix Initiative: it needs to die.

Obviously, that ain't happening, but it's in desperate need of revision all the same.

~J

Rework Initiative.

I understand it's "fair" to let everyone go once before the fast person kills them all. But, y'know what? Screw fair. There are plenty of ways for characters of every stripe (quickened spells, adept powers, bioware, and cyberware) to get themselves a boost for initiative. Those who don't should be at a massive disadvantage.

It makes no sense for Joe Samurai in a room of Johnny Dweebs to fire once, wait for them to all shoot back once, and then fire another five or six times in a row.

Stagger initiative like it was in older editions. Spread actions out. It keeps combat much more fluid and makes everyone pay attention to what's going on every phase.

Amen.

See Hero variant systems put together around a half a year ago by myself and others (independantly; there were, as I recall, slight variations).

For initiative, I've often toyed with the idea of basing iniative on a reaction test, rather than the current system which seems completely disconnected from the rest of the rules. Imagine having everyone just make a reaction test and whomever gets the most successes goes first, etc. You can then easily incorporate things like waiting in ambush with delayed actions through TN modifiers and it works just like any other test in SR.

I'm not quite sure how you would handle multiple actions per phase, though...

Too dices rolled in combat (attack-dodge-resistance-knokdown) and so combat is too slow.
melee combat to be reworked.
Too unrealistic and boring.
Lack of hit locations. I do not understand why people ruined their brains thinking about such complex and abstract "Stress rules" while it would be simpler to add a "hit location table" (where you know immediately if your cyberlimb is fucked, and not after the combat as for the actual Deadly wound rules) and resolve things in a way roughly similar to Cyberpunk 2020.

So it makes more sense for slow guy Bob to get off his first shot at about the same time speed sammy Joe does... and then stand there slack jawed while Joe empties his clip into him?

If someone's faster, they're faster. It makes more sense for them to get several actions at the start of a round than at the end of it (to me), for being quick. It is the opposite of "makes more sense," for the insanely fast guy to get several shots off at the end of a round. That's why we call it "fast." Not "methodical."

Problem is: If a combat turn is 3seconds long.
And Mr. Sammy manages it to empty half his clip in it, because he has so many actions, why can't Joe Bob average?!

Slow reaction lets you act after someone else, yes.
But it doesen't make your gun less useful suddenly.

They still both act in the same three seconds.

This just seems weird to me...